the gift of spontaneous tongues, that is spontaneously being able to speak an intelligible dialect is not around today..certainly there are gifted linguists who have a natural ability to quickly learn and use dialects but that is not the same thing..here is one such example EETAOW Revival - Whole Tribe Get's SAVED! (FULL) - YouTube
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please press on the link EETAOW Revival - Whole Tribe Get's SAVED! (FULL) - YouTube
G
tell me me what you mean, and how to do it, and i will GRA.
(i think
).
zone
(i think
).zone
i like the studies
zone
zone
If that is true - then, simply post in the thread(s) that you liked them. That is what I was saying.
Here are the links:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/50825-study-second-coming-christ.html
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/51116-study-olivet-discourse.html
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52068-study-order-events.html
.
no Rick.
it's continuationists who must show that what are practicing is exactly like the apostolic era gifts. if it isn't it's something else. and it is.
of course paul spoke more languages than all of them - not only was he a highly educated Pharisee prior to conversion, he was appointed an Apostle and received every gift he needed to fulfill his commission.
if we don't have anyone like Paul today (and we don't, we have something else...and we do).
Pyromaniacs: Continuationism and Credulity, East and West < click resource
zone
A
i hate to butt in the middle of a public conversation but I'm really confused by your definition of apostles feedme3
I don't think the definition of Apostle is someone commissioned or sent by Jesus because then there would be 82 Apostles in the gospels because Jesus sent out 70 people:
Luke 10:1
After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.
Jesus appointed TWELVE apostles to build the foundation:
Luke 6:13
And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:
Acts 1:24-26
New King James Version (NKJV)
24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Ephesians 2
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
the only other two apostles mentioned in the Bible beside the twelve is Paul and Barnabas.
Ananias is called a disciple NOT an apostle:
neither in Acts 9 or Acts 22 is he referred to as an apostle
Acts 9
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
I don't understand this reasoning because even the OT prophets were able to lay hands and heal people and do miracles.
I don't think the definition of Apostle is someone commissioned or sent by Jesus because then there would be 82 Apostles in the gospels because Jesus sent out 70 people:
Luke 10:1
After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.
Jesus appointed TWELVE apostles to build the foundation:
Luke 6:13
And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:
Acts 1:24-26
New King James Version (NKJV)
24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Ephesians 2
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
the only other two apostles mentioned in the Bible beside the twelve is Paul and Barnabas.
Ananias is called a disciple NOT an apostle:
neither in Acts 9 or Acts 22 is he referred to as an apostle
Acts 9
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
I don't understand this reasoning because even the OT prophets were able to lay hands and heal people and do miracles.
Acts 2
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
9Parthians
and Medes
and Elamites
and residents of Mesopotamia,
Judea
and Cappadocia,
Pontus
and Asia,
10Phrygia
and Pamphylia,
Egypt
and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene,
and visitors from Rome,
11both Jews and proselytes,
Cretans and Arabians—
we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
were the tongues languages?
known human languages spoken and understood by men from every nation under heaven (the known world at the time)?
or was it unintelligible noises?
there was the little room of 'uneducated' disciples (Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?)....The Holy Spirit fell on them and.....they spoke about the wonderful works of God - Jesus Christ and salvation.
they spoke the languagess of the gentile nations...the jewish men who had come to Jerusalem at Pentecost heard the disciples miraculously telling the Gospel in their own native languages.
the ones who heard and believed became Christians and the Gospel launched out to all nations (when they went home). no fully revealed NT yet...gifts needed.
letters following. doctrine completed. gifts ceased.
~
captivity at the hands of gentiles was God's punishment on Israel.
everytime they were taken away they had other ppl rule over them, in languages they did not understand.
in the case of Acts 2, it was both His sign (tongues are for a sign) and a blessing. for those who received it. those who didn't couldn't understand or hear.
ex - predicting the Babylonian captivity (and return for JESUS AND Pentecost):
Isaiah 28
Judgment on Ephraim and Jerusalem
1 Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim,
and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord has one who is mighty and strong;
like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest,
like a storm of mighty, overflowing waters,
he casts down to the earth with his hand.
3 The proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim
will be trodden underfoot;
4 and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
which is on the head of the rich valley,
will be like a first-ripe fig before the summer:
when someone sees it, he swallows it
as soon as it is in his hand.
5 In that day the LORD of hosts will be a crown of glory,a
and a diadem of beauty, to the remnant of his people,
6 and a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.
7 These also reel with wine
and stagger with strong drink;
the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink,
they are swallowed byb wine,
they stagger with strong drink,
they reel in vision,
they stumble in giving judgment.
8 For all tables are full of filthy vomit,
with no space left.
9 “To whom will he teach knowledge,
and to whom will he explain the message?
Those who are weaned from the milk,
those taken from the breast?
10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little.”
11 For by people of strange lips
and with a foreign tongue
the LORD will speak to this people,
12 to whom he has said,
“This is rest;
give rest to the weary;
and this is repose”;
yet they would not hear.
13 And the word of the LORD will be to them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little,
that they may go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken.
A Cornerstone in Zion
14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers,
who rule this people in Jerusalem!
15 Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
and with Sheol we have an agreement,
when the overwhelming whip passes through
it will not come to us,
for we have made lies our refuge,
and in falsehood we have taken shelter”;
16 therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
“Behold, I am the one who has laidc as a foundation in Zion,
a stone, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation:
‘Whoever believes will not be in haste.
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
9Parthians
and Medes
and Elamites
and residents of Mesopotamia,
Judea
and Cappadocia,
Pontus
and Asia,
10Phrygia
and Pamphylia,
Egypt
and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene,
and visitors from Rome,
11both Jews and proselytes,
Cretans and Arabians—
we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
were the tongues languages?
known human languages spoken and understood by men from every nation under heaven (the known world at the time)?
or was it unintelligible noises?
there was the little room of 'uneducated' disciples (Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?)....The Holy Spirit fell on them and.....they spoke about the wonderful works of God - Jesus Christ and salvation.
they spoke the languagess of the gentile nations...the jewish men who had come to Jerusalem at Pentecost heard the disciples miraculously telling the Gospel in their own native languages.
the ones who heard and believed became Christians and the Gospel launched out to all nations (when they went home). no fully revealed NT yet...gifts needed.
letters following. doctrine completed. gifts ceased.
~
captivity at the hands of gentiles was God's punishment on Israel.
everytime they were taken away they had other ppl rule over them, in languages they did not understand.
in the case of Acts 2, it was both His sign (tongues are for a sign) and a blessing. for those who received it. those who didn't couldn't understand or hear.
ex - predicting the Babylonian captivity (and return for JESUS AND Pentecost):
Isaiah 28
Judgment on Ephraim and Jerusalem
1 Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim,
and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord has one who is mighty and strong;
like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest,
like a storm of mighty, overflowing waters,
he casts down to the earth with his hand.
3 The proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim
will be trodden underfoot;
4 and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
which is on the head of the rich valley,
will be like a first-ripe fig before the summer:
when someone sees it, he swallows it
as soon as it is in his hand.
5 In that day the LORD of hosts will be a crown of glory,a
and a diadem of beauty, to the remnant of his people,
6 and a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.
7 These also reel with wine
and stagger with strong drink;
the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink,
they are swallowed byb wine,
they stagger with strong drink,
they reel in vision,
they stumble in giving judgment.
8 For all tables are full of filthy vomit,
with no space left.
9 “To whom will he teach knowledge,
and to whom will he explain the message?
Those who are weaned from the milk,
those taken from the breast?
10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little.”
11 For by people of strange lips
and with a foreign tongue
the LORD will speak to this people,
12 to whom he has said,
“This is rest;
give rest to the weary;
and this is repose”;
yet they would not hear.
13 And the word of the LORD will be to them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little,
that they may go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken.
A Cornerstone in Zion
14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers,
who rule this people in Jerusalem!
15 Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
and with Sheol we have an agreement,
when the overwhelming whip passes through
it will not come to us,
for we have made lies our refuge,
and in falsehood we have taken shelter”;
16 therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
“Behold, I am the one who has laidc as a foundation in Zion,
a stone, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation:
‘Whoever believes will not be in haste.
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F
I never said the gifts were only for Apostles. Did you not read where we disscussed Acts 8? Philip was able to do miracles, he was not an Apostle, and many in the church did miracles.
IT is about who could give this ability.
Mega this statement really shows you not paying much attention to anything I am saying.
A
I'm at a lost in this conversation because I do believe that there is a difference between the generation of the apostles who walked with Jesus and present day. However I do believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still working today as they did back then. the only difference is the lack of apostles and prophets because they were for laying down of the foundation of the church just as Jesus was the cornerstone.
God used them to tell the world about the NEW covenant mediated by Jesus and they had special signs and wonders and miracles to accompany that generation but that generation has pass and we are in a time of darkness for Jesus told us:
I think there is difference between prophecy and a Prophet of God.
King Saul spoke prophecy but was not a PROPHET.
many people can speak prophecy by just reading the Bible and the promises therein but that does not make them a prophet.
Just as God can answer prayer and heal people but that does not make that person a healer.
I don't believe that the gifts of the Spirit are given as ownership for one person but are blessings that flow through people as God wills it. I believe people should make a distinction between the gifts of the Spirit and the various ministries God entrust to people as the work they are to do for Him in this life. If someone claims God gave THEM a certain gift then I would seriously pray for that person.
1 corinthians 12
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all
God used them to tell the world about the NEW covenant mediated by Jesus and they had special signs and wonders and miracles to accompany that generation but that generation has pass and we are in a time of darkness for Jesus told us:
I think there is difference between prophecy and a Prophet of God.
King Saul spoke prophecy but was not a PROPHET.
many people can speak prophecy by just reading the Bible and the promises therein but that does not make them a prophet.
Just as God can answer prayer and heal people but that does not make that person a healer.
I don't believe that the gifts of the Spirit are given as ownership for one person but are blessings that flow through people as God wills it. I believe people should make a distinction between the gifts of the Spirit and the various ministries God entrust to people as the work they are to do for Him in this life. If someone claims God gave THEM a certain gift then I would seriously pray for that person.
1 corinthians 12
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all
and you are right..certain spiritual gifts were exercised in the early church but once John finished the final Revelation so that we have all the inspired words of God, prophecy did cease as there was nothing more to be added to our knowledge of God..it is all in His word..at the point in time in which you speak of the completed word of God was not yet complete
M
You cannot provide one scripture the specifcally states he was an apostle.
Acts 9:17 specifically says Ananias laid hands on Paul so he could be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Your belief is just that, a belief, one that doesn't line up with what Acts 9 says.
No, that's an assumption you have to add in. Acts 8 does not say "Only apostles can lay hands on someone to receive the Holy Spirit."
I'm sure most Christians would fit the definition of apostle that you gave.
And I see you're right back to your long winded posts, which I will have no part of. It's not like you really said anything else of substance, just repeating yourself over and over. You keep claiming that Acts 8 says only apostles can impart the Holy Spirit, but that's just something you have to ASSUME. I'm not going to take part in your assumptions just because you repeatedly try to force them down my throat, nor am I going to waste hours responding to you posts because you decided to make them a mile long.
I know of early explorers who came to Australia and asked the natives what the furry creature was jumping around and were told..Kangaroo..so the explorers went back to their country of origin telling people of a strange creature called Kangaroo by natives..when years later the dialects of the natives were learned it was discovered that Kangaroo means..I do not understand you..I do not understand what you are talking about so the people from your church may not have been lying but may have been confused
If the church was "mature'', we wouldn't be sitting here talking about this, would we?
If the church was "mature'', the modern day church wouldn't be in such a mess with all it's denominational problems, now would it?
If the church was "mature'', there would be no falling away, for only christians can "fall away" in the first place!
If the church was "mature'', it wouldn't be rolling over the hill at a breakneck pace into apostasy.
The "so-called" "infant church" with its "temporary anointing" was doing a hundred times better than the modern church could ever dream of.... yet we have a "complete canon" so we can show everybody how much smarter & better off we are today..... sheesh! I wish somebody would back up a half mile or so & take another look at the church! We're more worse off than the Corinthians! Solomon said it best... "There's nothing new under the sun".
Say what you want.... the modern church doesn't look anything like what this teaching of yours says.
I can't believe a christian with eyesight would look at today's church, then say we no longer need the power of God as the early church had,especially when Satan is running rampant right in our own nation, in our own back yard!
The only way we will ever hope to be complete is when we stand before Jesus face to face. Period.
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