State of Emergency in the Churches

[Skinski7]

Do you think maybe all this is happean because the church see nothing but sin (or missing the mark set by them) then just letting the love of God flow and let it do it's thing? but at last man is just to hung up on himself no matter what side of the frence he is on to see the truth.

The answers of the pastors are rooted in the underlying theology that is believed.

The major error held it that of being "born a sinner" which redefines sin from being a choice to a symptom of a condition

Thus with sin being redefined to be a symptom repentance is redefined to be a confession of that condition rather than the change of mind that leads to the stopping of sin.

A child molester is viewed not as a criminal against God, but rather a victim of a sickness. Jesus Christ is the cure to the sickness thus the solution is to receive the cure.

These things are very difficult for people to consider because such teachings are so entrenched in the church system.

The error of original sin is rooted in 4th century Rome and thus has been entrenched in the church system for over 1600 years.

 

[Tombo]

The answers of the pastors are rooted in the underlying theology that is believed.

The major error held it that of being "born a sinner" which redefines sin from being a choice to a symptom of a condition

Thus with sin being redefined to be a symptom repentance is redefined to be a confession of that condition rather than the change of mind that leads to the stopping of sin.

A child molester is viewed not as a criminal against God, but rather a victim of a sickness. Jesus Christ is the cure to the sickness thus the solution is to receive the cure.

These things are very difficult for people to consider because such teachings are so entrenched in the church system.

The error of original sin is rooted in 4th century Rome and thus has been entrenched in the church system for over 1600 years.

So you're saying that man has a choice of whether to be a sinner or not??? So in reality, I can live a perfectly sinless life and never have any need of Christ. If I choose never to sin in my life, why do I need Jesus?
You really show that you have no understanding of man's serious sin condition at all. Where did Cain get his "example" to kill from? They were the first people on the earth, and yet he murdered his brother. It came from his heart, because when Adam and Eve fell, the whole human race fell. We don't sin because of seeing others sin, or by example, but because we are fallen beings. Jeremiah said "the heart is desperately wicked". Just as Paul told us,' in Adam all die" Why do we all die in Adam? Because we inherited his sinful disposition after his rebellion. He stood as the head of the human race, just as our new Adam, Jesus, stands for us, and give us His righeousness to cover us. It will only be in the new heaven and earth that our sinful desires will be completely done away with. But until then we will continually struggle against sin, and Jesus will be there to help us. But we have NO POWER IN OURSELVES to resist sin. If God didn't save us and open our eyes, we would not even want to repent or follow Christ.
Stop deceiving people into believeing that they aren't as bad as the Bible clearly says they are. And stop telling them to rely on their own works of righteousness to get them saved. It is a lie straight from the devil.

To my true brothers and sister here, please read Romans 3:9-19 "What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks/Gentiles, are under sin, as it is written:
None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks God.
All have turned aside; togehter they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.
Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.
The venom of asps is under their lips.
Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Thier feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God."

Paul is clearly saying that both the Jews under the law, and the gentiles are all under sin. There is none righteous, not even one. No one seeks for God (contrary to what skinski7 says). No one does good, not even one (contrary to what skinski7 says). There is no fear of God before their eyes (contrary to what skinski7 says).
And why did Paul say all of this? "So that every mouth may be stopped (stopped from boasting that they can do anything to save themselves, like skinski7 teaches), and the whole world may be held accountable to God (which skinski7 says you are not if you just do good works).
Flee from this false teacher. He will only lead you to destruction by telling you that your heart is not as bad as God tells us it is, and that if you just trust in your repentance, you will saved, instead of trusting fiully in Christ Jesus for your complete salvation. And don't believe skinski7 when he tells you that you can lose your slavation that Christ won for you. He will tell you that a saved person who has been givern eternal life, can lose that salvation and eternal life. He doesn't understand what the word eternal means. If eternal life can be lost, it is not eternal. He makes God a liar.
This man is deceived and a deceiver. Nothing he teaches is of God. Trust only in Jesus the Christ to save you to the uttermost. Put to death the wicked deeds of the flesh through His power, you have no power of your own to do it. Trust Him to save you to the uttermost.
God bless, my friends.

Tom

 

[Skinski7]

Tombo,

Here are the fallacies in your post.

1.
Firstly, not being born a sinner does not equate to not needing Christ. We all need Jesus Christ because He is the way the truth and the life. Christ in us is the hope of glory. Also you have sinned in the past (which we all have) then you need the blood of Christ so you can be made pure and reconciled to God.

2.
Cain chose to sin when he yielded to the passions and desires of his flesh. God warned him not to do so but he did not heed the warning.

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Sin lies at the door because we all are born with natural passions and desires. James explains how sin works.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Eve did not need to be born a sinner to yield to the lust of the flesh.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve yielded the passions and desires of her flesh and disobeyed God. She made the choice to do so.

Cain yielded to the passions and desires of his flesh and disobeyed God. He made the choice to do so.

When you yield to the passions and desires of your flesh you do it because you make the choice to do so.

The "born in sin" heresy shifts the blame for sin off you and onto God because you were made that way. Hence God gets the blame and sinners are victims.

Jesus was tempted in exactly the same way as we are yet he never disobeyed the Father.

Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Those who are in Christ crucify the flesh with its passions and desires.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

When we crucify our flesh with its passions and desires it means we do not yield to them anymore. We rule over them because we are under grace and not under the dominion of sin.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

That is what the Bible teaches. Ignore it and call me a liar if you like, your problem is with God, not me.

3.
You allude Jeremiah 17:9 which says in context...

Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jer 17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
Jer 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
Jer 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah is teaching that are to trust in God and not in ourselves. Anyone who trusts in themselves can be deceived by their heart. A wicked heart is rooted in departing from the Lord, ie departing from the grace of God which teaches us how to live. A human being left to their own devices through rejecting the source of life, which is God, is but an animal subject to the lusts of the flesh. Jeremiah is teaching not to do that.

To take that verse and imply that an innocent baby is actually wicked at birth is to shift the blame of sin from you to God who made you that way.

Sin is a choice not a disease. You sin when you make the choice to yield to the passions of the flesh when you know it is wrong to do so. That is why people are condemned.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

They refuse to yield to God's grace.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


4.
You say,

It will only be in the new heaven and earth that our sinful desires will be completely done away with. But until then we will continually struggle against sin, and Jesus will be there to help us. But we have NO POWER IN OURSELVES to resist sin. If God didn't save us and open our eyes, we would not even want to repent or follow Christ.

The passions and desires of the flesh are not sinful in and of themselves. That is what Augustine taught when he brought his platonic philosophy into the church. Sin is when the passions and desires are yielded to in disobedience to God.

The sexual desire is a good example, it is just a natural desire. It is not sinful when yielded to within the bounds of marriage. It is only sinful when yielded to in disregard of marriage to satisfy the flesh. In other words sin is when you suppress the knowledge of the truth walk like an animal taking pleasure in unrighteousness.

You are correct when you say we have no power in ourselves to resist sin. That is true and that is why we have grace. This is why we cannot produce fruit apart from abiding in the vine because God is the source of all light.

The walk of a true Christian is to walk a crucified life, denying the flesh, yielding to the Spirit thus producing the fruit of true righteousness by a faith working by love.

God indeed opens our eyes and initiates salvation through His grace. If He did not do that we would not come to Him. He calls us first. Yet this call via His grace has appeared to all men through the light revealed in our souls. We can freely choose to yield to that light or reject it.

Original sin denies this light by deeming all men unable and thus a later manifestation of grace is invented to offset this inability. The reformers teach irresistible grace and the arminians teach prevenient grace. Both are errors because men are not born sinners.

Men are indeed born subject to the passions and desires of the flesh but sin can only occur when there is knowledge of right and wrong. Committing sin hardens the heart and thus dims the light of grace eventually leading to reprobation. Thus the natural disposition to sin is developed through the repeated acts of sinning, that is what the nature in Ephesians 2 is speaking about. Likewise repeatedly yielding to the grace of God will develop the natural disposition to do right and that is the nature spoken of in Romans 2.


5.
You say,

Paul is clearly saying that both the Jews under the law, and the gentiles are all under sin. There is none righteous, not even one. No one seeks for God (contrary to what skinski7 says). No one does good, not even one (contrary to what skinski7 says). There is no fear of God before their eyes (contrary to what skinski7 says).

You are referring to this section of Romans...

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul is quoting Psalm 14:3 where the context is of the fool.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isa 53:6 is also a parallel reference...

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

As well as Jer 50:6...

Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

That passage in Romans is written in the context of Rom 3:9 which says...

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

It is not in the context of individuals but of the peoples. The Jews and the Gentiles are both under sin and thus both need a saviour.

There are plenty of examples in the Bible of people who "understand," and "seek God" and are "righteous."

John the Baptist's parents for example...

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

You cannot say they were desperately wicked and unrighteous. Romans 3 is a general statement made in regard to the peoples of both the Jews and Gentiles.

Noah, Job, and Daniel are all declared as righteous in the Old Testament. It is dangerous to isolate scripture out of its context so stop doing it.

6.
You say,

And why did Paul say all of this? "So that every mouth may be stopped (stopped from boasting that they can do anything to save themselves, like skinski7 teaches), and the whole world may be held accountable to God (which skinski7 says you are not if you just do good works).

The boast was in claiming to be a Jew and resting the law (Rom 2:17). I have explained this in detail but in brief it is simply a reference in trying to make yourself righteous by outside works apart from the grace of God. True righteousness is from the inside out which comes by an obedient heart yielding to the grace of God. That is how heart purity is produced as opposed to having to keep rules and regulations which are just dead works.

Just because I say you must obey Jesus you continually say that somehow that is some sort of boast in saving oneself. Obedience to Jesus Christ is simply a necessary mechanic in the process of salvation. It is what the Bible teaches.

I just repeat what Jesus plainly taught...

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You call me a false teacher because I say that you must obey God.

7.
You then say,

Flee from this false teacher. He will only lead you to destruction by telling you that your heart is not as bad as God tells us it is, and that if you just trust in your repentance, you will saved, instead of trusting fiully in Christ Jesus for your complete salvation.

Putting words in my mouth I see. Anyone who is living in rebellion to God has a bad heart. They can only be cleansed through a genuine repentance experience where they can approach God by a true faith and thus be cleaned by the blood of Jesus Christ.

It is a real shame that you say that I am saying, "just trust in your repentance and you will be saved.' When all I am saying is that...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

8.
You say,

And don't believe skinski7 when he tells you that you can lose your slavation that Christ won for you. He will tell you that a saved person who has been givern eternal life, can lose that salvation and eternal life. He doesn't understand what the word eternal means. If eternal life can be lost, it is not eternal. He makes God a liar.

You use rhetoric and not the Bible.

The Bible is full of warnings about holding fast lest you fall away. All those warnings must have no meaning to you.

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Why would Paul warn the Ephesians with tears for three years if there was no danger of being deceived and falling away?

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Why would Peter teach that we must add to our faith with diligence if there is no danger of falling away?

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


You are the one who is deceiving people with an ear tickling "don't worry about it" message of complacency. You are the one who is making an allowance for continuing in sin and not surely dying. The Scripture is very clear.

Dig deep.

 

[Skinski7]

Here is a link to Part 1 of State of Emergency in the Churches.

It is a video presented by brother Mike.

State of Emergency in the Churches (Part 1) - YouTube

 

[Tombo]

You know, it seems the one who preaches the loudest against sexual sin usually have that very problem in their own life. They think that if they scream repentance of it loud enough to others, then maybe somehow the temptation will leave them. The only way to overcome sexual sin (or any sin) is through the power of Christ. Pray to Him for the strength to live purely, but don't try to use that repentance as a way to commend yourself to God. It is done out of love and gratefulness, not as a work to please God.


Tom

 

[cfultz3]

I tell my sister to wash her hands all the time, and then I thought about it, and it was I who had the problem of being a clean freak. She still does not do it often enough, and I am still a cleam freak.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Tombo,

Here are the fallacies in your post.

1.
Firstly, not being born a sinner does not equate to not needing Christ. We all need Jesus Christ because He is the way the truth and the life. Christ in us is the hope of glory. Also you have sinned in the past (which we all have) then you need the blood of Christ so you can be made pure and reconciled to God.

2.
Cain chose to sin when he yielded to the passions and desires of his flesh. God warned him not to do so but he did not heed the warning.

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Sin lies at the door because we all are born with natural passions and desires. James explains how sin works.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Eve did not need to be born a sinner to yield to the lust of the flesh.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve yielded the passions and desires of her flesh and disobeyed God. She made the choice to do so.

Cain yielded to the passions and desires of his flesh and disobeyed God. He made the choice to do so.

When you yield to the passions and desires of your flesh you do it because you make the choice to do so.

The "born in sin" heresy shifts the blame for sin off you and onto God because you were made that way. Hence God gets the blame and sinners are victims.

Jesus was tempted in exactly the same way as we are yet he never disobeyed the Father.

Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Those who are in Christ crucify the flesh with its passions and desires.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

When we crucify our flesh with its passions and desires it means we do not yield to them anymore. We rule over them because we are under grace and not under the dominion of sin.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

That is what the Bible teaches. Ignore it and call me a liar if you like, your problem is with God, not me.

3.
You allude Jeremiah 17:9 which says in context...

Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jer 17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
Jer 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
Jer 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah is teaching that are to trust in God and not in ourselves. Anyone who trusts in themselves can be deceived by their heart. A wicked heart is rooted in departing from the Lord, ie departing from the grace of God which teaches us how to live. A human being left to their own devices through rejecting the source of life, which is God, is but an animal subject to the lusts of the flesh. Jeremiah is teaching not to do that.

To take that verse and imply that an innocent baby is actually wicked at birth is to shift the blame of sin from you to God who made you that way.

Sin is a choice not a disease. You sin when you make the choice to yield to the passions of the flesh when you know it is wrong to do so. That is why people are condemned.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

They refuse to yield to God's grace.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


4.
You say,



The passions and desires of the flesh are not sinful in and of themselves. That is what Augustine taught when he brought his platonic philosophy into the church. Sin is when the passions and desires are yielded to in disobedience to God.

The sexual desire is a good example, it is just a natural desire. It is not sinful when yielded to within the bounds of marriage. It is only sinful when yielded to in disregard of marriage to satisfy the flesh. In other words sin is when you suppress the knowledge of the truth walk like an animal taking pleasure in unrighteousness.

You are correct when you say we have no power in ourselves to resist sin. That is true and that is why we have grace. This is why we cannot produce fruit apart from abiding in the vine because God is the source of all light.

The walk of a true Christian is to walk a crucified life, denying the flesh, yielding to the Spirit thus producing the fruit of true righteousness by a faith working by love.

God indeed opens our eyes and initiates salvation through His grace. If He did not do that we would not come to Him. He calls us first. Yet this call via His grace has appeared to all men through the light revealed in our souls. We can freely choose to yield to that light or reject it.

Original sin denies this light by deeming all men unable and thus a later manifestation of grace is invented to offset this inability. The reformers teach irresistible grace and the arminians teach prevenient grace. Both are errors because men are not born sinners.

Men are indeed born subject to the passions and desires of the flesh but sin can only occur when there is knowledge of right and wrong. Committing sin hardens the heart and thus dims the light of grace eventually leading to reprobation. Thus the natural disposition to sin is developed through the repeated acts of sinning, that is what the nature in Ephesians 2 is speaking about. Likewise repeatedly yielding to the grace of God will develop the natural disposition to do right and that is the nature spoken of in Romans 2.


5.
You say,



You are referring to this section of Romans...

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul is quoting Psalm 14:3 where the context is of the fool.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isa 53:6 is also a parallel reference...

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

As well as Jer 50:6...

Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

That passage in Romans is written in the context of Rom 3:9 which says...

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

It is not in the context of individuals but of the peoples. The Jews and the Gentiles are both under sin and thus both need a saviour.

There are plenty of examples in the Bible of people who "understand," and "seek God" and are "righteous."

John the Baptist's parents for example...

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

You cannot say they were desperately wicked and unrighteous. Romans 3 is a general statement made in regard to the peoples of both the Jews and Gentiles.

Noah, Job, and Daniel are all declared as righteous in the Old Testament. It is dangerous to isolate scripture out of its context so stop doing it.

6.
You say,

[/b]
The boast was in claiming to be a Jew and resting the law (Rom 2:17). I have explained this in detail but in brief it is simply a reference in trying to make yourself righteous by outside works apart from the grace of God. True righteousness is from the inside out which comes by an obedient heart yielding to the grace of God. That is how heart purity is produced as opposed to having to keep rules and regulations which are just dead works.

Just because I say you must obey Jesus you continually say that somehow that is some sort of boast in saving oneself. Obedience to Jesus Christ is simply a necessary mechanic in the process of salvation. It is what the Bible teaches.

I just repeat what Jesus plainly taught...

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You call me a false teacher because I say that you must obey God.

7.
You then say,



Putting words in my mouth I see. Anyone who is living in rebellion to God has a bad heart. They can only be cleansed through a genuine repentance experience where they can approach God by a true faith and thus be cleaned by the blood of Jesus Christ.

It is a real shame that you say that I am saying, "just trust in your repentance and you will be saved.' When all I am saying is that...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

8.
You say,


You use rhetoric and not the Bible.

The Bible is full of warnings about holding fast lest you fall away. All those warnings must have no meaning to you.

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Why would Paul warn the Ephesians with tears for three years if there was no danger of being deceived and falling away?

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Why would Peter teach that we must add to our faith with diligence if there is no danger of falling away?

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


You are the one who is deceiving people with an ear tickling "don't worry about it" message of complacency. You are the one who is making an allowance for continuing in sin and not surely dying. The Scripture is very clear.

Dig deep.

The gospel according to godliness, isnt accepted well today, for the fact many believe a false gosple, mixed with many erors, I used to believe as they did for 15 years, I was dead IN my sins,trusting in a fALSE provision, my ex pastor told me It was all I needed to get into heaven.

You can trust in the lie, or you can turn to God in humble repentance, seek His mercy, as I did, come out of the false church system, otherwise you will be deceived.

Salvation isnt a provision, a given, or sealed, obedience from the heart matters, repentance clears and purifies the heart to receive salvation, NOT earn it in any way.

If all you people who reject our teachings believe the narrow road and straight gate is just saying a prayer, then trusting all has been done for you in advanced, then you are dead wrong, you sow what you reap, and bottom line you are actually teaching in favor of sin.

Jesus calls all of His creation to repent or perish, not accept the finished package, and live as you please!

Excellent truth Skinski, your patients and teaching ability is a gift from God, His word comes alive to those who have an ear to hear, and a heart to obey!

Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[Tombo]

I tell my sister to wash her hands all the time, and then I thought about it, and it was I who had the problem of being a clean freak. She still does not do it often enough, and I am still a cleam freak.

Very wise observation.
God bless, my friend.

Tom

 

[RedTent]

I don’t see why sin is so difficult or a basis for argument. John the Baptist said to repent when we see sin in our lives. Repent means to turn around and go the other way. Scripture talks about this in many ways, but that is always the bottom line. All scripture has to fit with each other from Genesis to Revelation, that fits with all scripture.

We can also find that God created and loved us all through scripture. You can say the theme of scripture is for us to live eternally with Him. That gets a little more complicated because it is a matter of understanding God’s holiness, God’s relationship to sin, the grace God extends to us, how faith is a part of it, how repentance and forgiveness are intertwined, and where the end of God’s patience comes in. This understanding requires the entire bible, not any one part

 

[RedTent]

We have alllowed our lives to be lived around our secular world from the time we get up in the morning, drive to work, relax with TV. We have become spiritual beings through our faith in our triune God. We need to see the spiritual in our physical acts!

 

[Crossfire]

Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

So how does one overcome?

 

[Skinski7]

How does one overcome?

First by receiving the implanted word.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

1Jn_2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

We overcome the wicked one by the word that abides in us. We must lay aside all wickedness in order to receive that implanted word which can save our souls.

We overcome by faith, we overcome by being born of God.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

It is the implanted word that is able to save our souls. The implanted word is God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The implanted word is God's grace working in us to will and to do. This is God's grace teaching us.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

We have to receive it with meekness, we have to abide in it, we must apply it by faith. That is what being a doer of the word means.

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

We overcome by adding diligently to our faith.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

We overcome by renewing our mind.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We overcome by putting on the whole armour of God.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

We abide in Christ.

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We abide in Him by being a doer of His words.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

We overcome by the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The end is victory through Jesus Christ if we stand in Him.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

So how does one overcome?

By walking in newness of life, abstaining from all appearances of evil, keeping oneself pure and undefiled from the world, and following Jesus on the narrow road!

This comes from the heart made pure, through repentance and faith proven by deeds.

Jesus didn't overcome for us, but gave us all the tools we need to be overcomer's, and receive the bread of life!

He who endures and overcomes to the end will be saved, its that simple!

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Plus all what Skinski shared!!

To overcome is also walking in the spirit, giving no provision for the flesh, and working out your salvation with fear and trembling, just what is says in the word..

 

[Tombo]

By walking in newness of life, abstaining from all appearances of evil, keeping oneself pure and undefiled from the world, and following Jesus on the narrow road!

This comes from the heart made pure, through repentance and faith proven by deeds.

Jesus didn't overcome for us, but gave us all the tools we need to be overcomer's, and receive the bread of life!

He who endures and overcomes to the end will be saved, its that simple!

That is a wicked lie straight from hell. Jesus is the only one who lived a perfect life before the Father on our behalf, and died to take the penalty of the law on our behalf. Your quote shows the true wickedness and rebellion of your heart, and you're trying to spread it to others. You want others to trust in themselves for their own salvation, just as you do. Jesus means NOTHING TO YOU. You really are Tommy4Tommy.
I warn everyone here to flee from these men, they want to take your eyes off of Jesus and put them on yourselves for your salvation. They are lost and would have you to be lost with them.
The blatant evil to say that "Jesus our Lord didn't overcome for us"!!!!
God forgive your blasphemy, and God protect others here from falling into to pit you're digging for them.

Tom

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is a wicked lie straight from hell. Jesus is the only one who lived a perfect life before the Father on our behalf, and died to take the penalty of the law on our behalf. Your quote shows the true wickedness and rebellion of your heart, and you're trying to spread it to others. You want others to trust in themselves for their own salvation, just as you do. Jesus means NOTHING TO YOU. You really are Tommy4Tommy.
I warn everyone here to flee from these men, they want to take your eyes off of Jesus and put them on yourselves for your salvation. They are lost and would have you to be lost with them.
The blatant evil to say that "Jesus our Lord didn't overcome for us"!!!!
God forgive your blasphemy, and God protect others here from falling into to pit you're digging for them.

Tom

They don't understand no one can do what they are demanding. They do not understand the penalty of sin.

If we are driving to work, and do 5 miles over the spead limit, we have sinned by disobeying our masters. the penalty of that sin, Death!

If we are caught doing something, and say a little white lie so we will not get into trouble, we have sinned, the penalty of that sin is death

if we see someone who needs help, God has given us the ability to help that person, we know we should, but if we refuse, we have sinned, the penalty of that sin is death.

If we get angry, we have sinned, the penalty of that sin is death

If we see our neighbors car. and covet what he has, we have sinned, the penalty of that sin is death

if we have an inpure thought, that is sin, the penalty of that sin is death

We all probably do these things on a daily basis of some sort. How many death penalty's then do we have against us every day? If we stood in the presence of God, we would know, and then truely understand our filth, and just like Paul call ourselves wretched men. even if we do not sin like the world (sexual sin, murder drunkeness etc) we would see our filth.

They can't see theirs, that is why they preach good works to earn salvation, and reject faith in Christ. because they think they deserve it because they do not sin like the world, they can't see their own sin. Like the pharisee who thinks he has obeyed the law since birth, they reject the gospel thinking they have earned Gods love and salvation. It saddens me to think after 6000 some years of men on earth. and close to 2000 years past Christ, they still fall under the same lie of Satan, Trying to earn spiritul life with human Good.

 

[Tombo]

Here is Tommy4Tommy's version of Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is not by grace that you have been saved, nor through faith. It is of your own doing; it is not the gift of God, but the result of your works, so that you may boast in yourselves."

This is really what this man believes!!!! Stay away from this man's corrupted teachings, they are not the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
God bless my true brothers and sisters in the faith, who trust in Christ alone to save them to the uttermost, and obey His commands out of thankfulness. And even then, "we are unworthy servants, we have only done what was our duty."

Tom

 

[cfultz3]

Is salvation something which God taunts in front of you and granted only when you have reached perfection before coming to Him or is it something promised to those who are in Christ? Is it taken away with the minutest sin, only to be regained a thousand times throughout one's life? Are we to live in a constant fear of losing salvation, even by that little "unconfessed" sin? You know, even that little sin of telling the Spirit, "not now, maybe later" is a sin. There are so many sins in one's life, how can you be certain all is forgiven? But they who are in Christ, God does not impute sin, but corrects them as a Father.

If there is but one who can stand before us and proclaim His absolute obedience to the Law, and proclaim we are to do likewise, could we also earn our justification by obedience to that which brought death? But what if that one says, "I came because I knew you could not, I died in your place and faith in me alone suffices?" Which one would you follow behind, the one who says salvation is through your deeds, or the One who says salvation is through Me and that justification is manifested through works of Faith, namely, a living faith displayed through love?

I know for certain that my salvation is not based on my deeds, that is, my righteousness, but my righteousness comes from the faith I have in Jesus Christ. Which will you pick, your works or His works?

 

[AnandaHya]

How does one overcome?

First by receiving the implanted word.

We overcome the wicked one by the word that abides in us. We must lay aside all wickedness in order to receive that implanted word which can save our souls.

We overcome by faith, we overcome by being born of God.

It is the implanted word that is able to save our souls. The implanted word is God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

The implanted word is God's grace working in us to will and to do. This is God's grace teaching us.

We have to receive it with meekness, we have to abide in it, we must apply it by faith. That is what being a doer of the word means.

We overcome by adding diligently to our faith.

We overcome by renewing our mind.

We overcome by putting on the whole armour of God.

We abide in Christ.

We abide in Him by being a doer of His words.

We overcome by the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The end is victory through Jesus Christ if we stand in Him.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

I agree with most of your points except this statement "We must lay aside all wickedness in order to receive that implanted word which can save our souls."

For Jesus saved us when we were sinners still. He does not want us to remain in our sins but neither does the SEED become planted only when we lay aside All wickedness but when God's GRACE first comes to us. When GOD gives us Faith to believe upon the Gospel of Christ and then He sends His Holy Spirit which guides, teaches and leads us.

I believe we receive the implanted Word in order to lay aside all wickedness and that God does this to save our souls and conform us to the image of His Son.

can you expand upon the statement

"We overcome by the blood of the Lamb" ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is salvation something which God taunts in front of you and granted only when you have reached perfection before coming to Him or is it something promised to those who are in Christ? Is it taken away with the minutest sin, only to be regained a thousand times throughout one's life? Are we to live in a constant fear of losing salvation, even by that little "unconfessed" sin? You know, even that little sin of telling the Spirit, "not now, maybe later" is a sin. There are so many sins in one's life, how can you be certain all is forgiven? But they who are in Christ, God does not impute sin, but corrects them as a Father.

If there is but one who can stand before us and proclaim His absolute obedience to the Law, and proclaim we are to do likewise, could we also earn our justification by obedience to that which brought death? But what if that one says, "I came because I knew you could not, I died in your place and faith in me alone suffices?" Which one would you follow behind, the one who says salvation is through your deeds, or the One who says salvation is through Me and that justification is manifested through works of Faith, namely, a living faith displayed through love?

I know for certain that my salvation is not based on my deeds, that is, my righteousness, but my righteousness comes from the faith I have in Jesus Christ. Which will you pick, your works or His works?

Amen and Amen!