State of Emergency in the Churches

Strong1 · Apr 17, 2012

I'm curious to hear from the OP, what his experience of coming to Christ was? Do you think that you in your sinful state could make such a righteous decision to stop sinning before coming to God? Wasn't it just the opposite, that somehow God spoke to your heart, and you responded as you were, then His holy Spirit came in and transformed you? Did you not become "New" after this occured. I just believe that it is only the spirit of God within us that can make us "stop" Sinning.
We come retched before God recognizing that we are sinners, then God does the rest. Yet, I don't believe that after one becomes saved, the desire to commit such vile sins will drive them anymore. Jesus told the prostitute to go her way, but to sin no more.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 17, 2012

NoahsMom said:

AMEN sis. I never asked us to be stupid and put people in danger. Nor would God. I just want people to see and understand when God looks at us, he does not look at that pedophile any different than he looks at any of us, we are ALL under sin and fall short. Does that make sense?

So looking at that. Am I going to say he is not saved because he sins? When I am not sinless myself. that is my whole point.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 17, 2012

Strong1 said:

Thank you sis, at least someone understand what I am trying to say..lol

Skinski7 · Apr 17, 2012

Strong1 said:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God has already made the first move. His grace has appeared to all men teaching them how to live.

Inability is a false teaching which Augustine brought into church doctrine in the 4th century. The entire Bible is written in a manner where man can freely choose.

The inability lie is used as an excuse for the continuation of sinning. Sin is a choice and when people sin they choose to. Sin hardens the heart and is very deceitful and thus people can be very easily given over to a debased mind which comes out of the natural disposition to sin through their repeated offenses. Sin is extremely dangerous.

You wrote, "We come wretched before God recognizing that we are sinners, then God does the rest."

The Bible does not teach such a thing anywhere. Perhaps you can pull and isolate a proof text from somewhere and try to read that into it. Jesus taught to strive to enter in at the strait gate and that few would find it. That sure does not sound like just recognise your sinful state and then wait on God to do the rest. Come on, if you believe the Bible why do you hold to such notions?

You have to crucify the flesh in repentance! YOU have to do that. God does not do it for you.

Jesus taught that we must repent or perish.

The very first words of Jesus recorded in the Gospel of Mark are...
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

John the Baptist taught repentance for the remission of sins (Mar 1:4).

You are deluded if you believe that a child molester does not have to stop that sin BEFORE they are forgiven. Think carefully about it.

Salvation is being set free from sin. You cannot possibly be saved and still in bondage to sin.

The bondage is broken through a genuine repentance which leads to the sins being forsaken and then God raises you to a new life by the power of His Spirit.

God does not regenerate anyone who is still in rebellion.

I was cut to the heart when I began to learn the truth. I realises that my sin was my responsibility. I came to understand how selfish I had been, how I had abused the gift of life God had given me, how I did not love my neighbour. I realised how I was living into total aberration to the truth, and I knew it would be the end of me.

I was broken on that rock of Christ as my mind changed and I forsook my rebellion. God then opened my eyes and I found an insatiable hunger for truth and righteousness.

I was double minded for so long, even when I knew it. I do not know why God had mercy on me and had allowed me to live. I had been sinning knowing it was wrong for a very long time, I had abused His grace although I was deceived by many false teachers and teachings at the time. But thank God for His great mercy and patience with me, I didn't deserve, I don't deserve it, yet here I am an example that God will save whosoever will come.

cfultz3 · Apr 17, 2012

Eternally Grateful,

You have a spit-fire tongue of the Spirit

Red33 · Apr 17, 2012

When speaking of a believer who has had in their past a problem with molesting children or with a woman who has prostituted her body to many men, to deal with these individuals is an effort and exercise in wisdom and much grace and not an example of sinful behavior to base doctrine upon. Some of you really need to hear what I am saying. This is why it is important for every believer to be part of a local assembly of believers that have a pastor-teacher and a mature seasoned fellowship of grace in the truth and are strong in both. These individuals need to be built up in their new nature in Christ they have received from the Lord and need to have more grace bestowed upon them then others because they need it.

We need to feed them with the word continually so that they will develop a hunger and thirst after righteousness and the things of God. We should purpose to pray that God would give them all the mercy they need so that they will completely identify with who they are in Christ and not who they were in their old life in Adam. Often they are being shunned and presumed against because of their past and not given an opportunity to grow in grace and knowledge like others. The trends that have formed in their lives through this kind of activity of the flesh is much more railed upon by the world and the church then other forms of sins of the flesh.

For those that want verses on it, I'll give them to you, just ask.

RachelBibleStudent · Apr 17, 2012

this discussion is an example of the way most the evangelical churches have put sexual sins on a different level from other sins...

many churches have no difficulty with having compassion on alcoholics and drug addicts...they are taken in and usually provided with loving help in their struggle with those sins... some churches have even sought to downplay the sinfulness of drug use entirely...see pat robertson's support for legalizing satan sprouts...

but when the sin is sexual in nature...then the same churches will expect you to be already 'clean' before they will even give you the time of day...they seem to have no understanding of the ongoing struggle with these sins that many people face...

why does a struggle with sexual sin disqualify you while a struggle with other sinful addictions does not?

Skinski7 · Apr 17, 2012

RachelBibleStudent said:

Walking after the lusts of the flesh will disqualify you whether it is sexual in nature or not. The Bible is clear on this yet the professing "Bible Believers" do not believe it.

It is essential to crucify the flesh and its passions and desires in repentance. It is then essential to walk in the Spirit keeping the flesh in a crucified state.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

That simply means the sins of the flesh have STOPPED.

So many people wonder why Christianity is in such a mess today, well now you know if you have the eyes to see.

The truth that most do not want to hear is that the church system preaches "ye shall not surely die." That is exactly what these pastors are saying when they say that a child molester can be molesting children and saved at the same time.

If they said that the child molester had to stop then they would also have to say that the liar would have to stop too.

They cannot say it, firstly, because of their false theology, and secondly, it would offend too many people and they would quickly find themselves without a job.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 17, 2012

Skinski7 said:

In other words. we are under law and not under grace.

Grace means charity, or somethi8ng freely given which is not earned.

If we are required to do what you say to be saved. There is no charity, for we have earned salvation. Thus it is not a gift freely given by God, but a reward earned under our own merit. Which means?? Christ died for nothing, He did not have to do, we can be saved by the law.

sorry my friend. The apostles did not spend the whole NT teaching against a salvation by the law just to change their minds later. If, and i pray you do, You see the sin in your life and how God abhors that sin as much as he does sexual sin and all sin, You will finally understand the love of God, the mission of Christ, and your need for a savior.

No one, not even yourself, can do what you are demanding we do to be saved.Why? You are demanding sinless perfection, (even if you do not think you are) I pray one day you come to that realisation.

Red33 · Apr 17, 2012

Skinski7 said:

Walking after the lusts of the flesh will disqualify you whether it is sexual in nature or not. The Bible is clear on this yet the professing "Bible Believers" do not believe it.

It is essential to crucify the flesh and its passions and desires in repentance. It is then essential to walk in the Spirit keeping the flesh in a crucified state.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Anyone can quote these verses but to know what they mean and how they are appropriated in the believer's life is a whole other issue. Can you explain how these verses are appropriated in the believer's life spiritually and practically as to producing fruit without condemning the believer? When God instructs the members of Christ's body, it is not with a spirit of condemnation or else. Legalism is always giving ultimatums and never edifies or leads the believer into the grace that it will take to accomplish what God ishas purposed to perform in the life of the believer through the Spirit.

That simply means the sins of the flesh have STOPPED.

So many people wonder why Christianity is in such a mess today, well now you know if you have the eyes to see.

Legalism is responsible for much of the hard heartedness toward sin that has left the believer with no solution but to repent without the power of grace to supply the ability to do so. Do you think that every man has the power to repent without grace and the Holy Spirit? That is why we lead people through grace to forsake sin and not demand they repent.

The truth that most do not want to hear is that the church system preaches "ye shall not surely die." That is exactly what these pastors are saying when they say that a child molester can be molesting children and saved at the same time.

You are in a rut and you can't get out of it. You are in bondage to your own doctrine that will never set at liberty those that have been held captive.

If they said that the child molester had to stop then they would also have to say that the liar would have to stop too.. and the legalist would also have to stop all of his demands against a sinful lifestyle and start to love people and give them grace to love God and let that love and goodness lead them away from sin.

They cannot say it, firstly, because of their false theology, and secondly, it would offend too many people and they would quickly find themselves without a job.

... and we have been called to minister grace and edify the body of Christ

COMMENTS ABOVE ^^^^^

Tommy4Christ · Apr 17, 2012

Gal 5:16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Does God feel sorry for a sinner who wont repent and forsake thier vile sins? Does He turn His back on a vile molester, or any other vile sin?

If any of you believe a sinner doesnt have to repent, before God will grant them mercy, then you are throwing real repentance out the window, I know you want to believe you get saved, such as the Billy Graham way to the cross, where you just confess and trust Jesus did it all for you, but this isnt what the word of God teaches!

It makes me sick to my stomach to think anyone who professes Christ as thier savior, has no problem with a vile sinner(molester) getting saved, then cleaning up later, the whole purpose of salvation, as Skinski has proven through the word, is putting an end to sin, ISA 55-7, and walking in newness of life.

Can one be in adultery, while asking thier spouse for mercy and forgiveness?

Or does the sinner need to stop his adultery, make amends, fall on his face in brokenness, and prove his sorrow is real, which one will be forgiven? So now many will say a vile molester can get saved In thier sin, thus mocking God, with no real sorrow, just sorrow of the world!

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Jesus diddnt call His creation to confess and trust in the finished work, He called the few who would listen, to repent and obey and folow Him on the narrrow road,, or perish, and that means the sin stops in repentance, or the heart hardens, stop making excuses for sin!
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Skinski7 · Apr 18, 2012

NoahsMom said:

AMEN!

Exactly right. It is so simple.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Skinski7 · Apr 18, 2012

Red33,

It boggles my mind how you can call the repentance message legalism.

Obeying God from the heart is not legalism.

Legalism is in following a strict set of rules and regulations thinking that those outward acts make you right with God. if I was telling you that you had to go and get circumcised or stop eating pork then that would be legalism. Yet you equate the forsaking of the sins of the flesh as being a mandatory condition for forgiveness as legalism.

Going forth into all the world preaching repentance for the remission of sins and teaching people to observe all that Jesus commanded is not legalism.

Luk_24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

God is the author of salvation of those who obey Him.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Red33 · Apr 18, 2012

Skinski7 said:

Red33,

It boggles my mind how you can call the repentance message legalism.

Obeying God from the heart is not legalism.

Legalism is in following a strict set of rules and regulations thinking that those outward acts make you right with God. if I was telling you that you had to go and get circumcised or stop eating pork then that would be legalism. Yet you equate the forsaking of the sins of the flesh as being a mandatory condition for forgiveness as legalism.

Going forth into all the world preaching repentance for the remission of sins and teaching people to observe all that Jesus commanded is not legalism.

Luk_24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

God is the author of salvation of those who obey Him.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

We obey from the heart by believing the gospel and having faith toward God by responding to the light of the glorious gospel that shined unto us when we were in our sin. That is real repentance because God turned us with the gospel, through the Spirit and by grace. It will be a long time before you will ever understand that outside of head knowledge.

Your kind of repentance is legalism because it leaves off the goodness of God and puts the emphasis on man turning himself. God wants to turn the sinner and wants the glory for doing it, but you want to repent and get the credit, that is legalism and it is all in the flesh and does not glorify God and I do not care how many verses of scriptures you post to justify your position.

Skinski7 · Apr 18, 2012

Red33 said:

Please be serious. Your denial of the truth is forcing you to say the most foolish things.

A child molester who forsakes his sin and casts himself at the mercy of God is not going to be trying to earn credit or glorying in himself by doing so.

Your position is foolishness.

I suppose Nineveh were taking the glory away from God and trying to earn credit by forsaking their sin right?

Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Likewise, I suppose the Prodigal Son was taking the glory away from his father and crediting himself for his efforts. Is that right?

Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

An adulterous husband who forsakes his adultery and pleads with his wife for mercy is not basting in his self glory or trying to earn credit. To allude to such logic clearly demonstrates the fallacies of your thinking.

The repentance I speak of is right from the Bible. I use specific examples and word definitions all in full context.

All you use is rhetoric and foolish logic.

Tommy4Christ · Apr 18, 2012

Remember, real repentance comes from a broken and contrite heart, God will not despise!

Those dishonest ones out there who tell us we are being selfish, and trying to earn anything from God are being foolish, and hopefully are not themselves in any bondage to sin and the world, yes the world.

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God

Red33 · Apr 18, 2012

Tommy4Christ said:

You guys don't want to be perceived in that light but that is exactly what you are doing and your blinded to it. Others, who have the Spirit along with grace and truth, know this about you and some say nothing about it, but they know that what I am saying is the truth. because they have a witness in their spirit. You guys are going to continue to say the same things that you have been saying and never will those things minister Christ to anyone. You may get a few to agree with you on some things but they will never be built up in Christ.

enochson · Apr 18, 2012

Do you think maybe all this is happean because the church see nothing but sin (or missing the mark set by them) then just letting the love of God flow and let it do it's thing? but at last man is just to hung up on himself no matter what side of the frence he is on to see the truth.

RedTent · Apr 18, 2012

Thank you for your post.

My church quotes scripture to uphold its position of being luke warm. It makes me want to cry. They say they are under grace, not law. They say they have a loving God. My minister says I must keep my eye on Jesus, I am too much in the OT. We have almost as many things in our church tearing our families apart as the secular world does.

I am beginning to think the core of the problem comes from misreading Paul, or maybe Paul went overboard in his outrage over using law as a means to be holy.

There is truth in almost all that my church says, but every truth they quote needs rounding out. Truth has to be entire, you can’t take one portion of it and say you have the whole. That is like trying to play ball with a ball with a piece taken out. I think that is what our churches are trying to do.

For me, personally, I am going to ceremonial law that Paul talks against. As I add physical tasks that is in response to God to my day to day life, I find it brings my prayer life closer. The physical acts are a link to the spiritual meaning for me. II have studied how orthodox Jews do this, related it to scripture and then come up with my own personal routine. My first act is to wash my hands. With this, I keep in mind all scripture says about cleansing. I don't eat meat from scavenger animals and keep in mind all scripture says about spiritual cleanliness. I have a prayer shawl I use for special prayer, using it as closeting myself with God. For me, it adds a dimension to my life. My church says I am doing this because I don't understand what Christ came to us for. They say they would never copy what those Jews do who reject Christ. as I am doing.

Dude653 · Apr 18, 2012

RedTent said:

Thank you for your post.

My church quotes scripture to uphold its position of being luke warm. It makes me want to cry. They say they are under grace, not law. They say they have a loving God. My minister says I must keep my eye on Jesus, I am too much in the OT. We have almost as many things in our church tearing our families apart as the secular world does.

I am beginning to think the core of the problem comes from misreading Paul, or maybe Paul went overboard in his outrage over using law as a means to be holy.

There is truth in almost all that my church says, but every truth they quote needs rounding out. Truth has to be entire, you can’t take one portion of it and say you have the whole. That is like trying to play ball with a ball with a piece taken out. I think that is what our churches are trying to do.
For me, personally, I am going to ceremonial law that Paul talks against. As I add physical tasks that is in response to God to my day to day life, I find it brings my prayer life closer. The physical acts are a link to the spiritual meaning for me. II have studied how orthodox Jews do this, related it to scripture and then come up with my own personal routine. My first act is to wash my hands. With this, I keep in mind all scripture says about cleansing. I don't eat meat from scavenger animals and keep in mind all scripture says about spiritual cleanliness. I have a prayer shawl I use for special prayer, using it as closeting myself with God. For me, it adds a dimension to my life. My church says I am doing this because I don't understand what Christ came to us for. They say they would never copy what those Jews do who reject Christ. as I am doing.

I see what you are getting at...It seems to me that the Bible was written for the jewish people, but denominations have perverted it into their own unbiblical doctrine....example,''churches reject passover becaise it is a ''jewish holiday'' but pring the pagan easyer into the house of God..

State of Emergency in the Churches

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