study - Olivet Discourse

PlainWord · Jul 7, 2013

Dear Doulos,

The Lord returns at the 7th trumpet. You cited it, Rev 11. We are gathered at that time. But nothing says we are taken to heaven. I believe we are glorified but remain on earth. We are part of the saints that do battle with the Lord against the Beast and his kingdom. After the 7th trumpet we have the 7 bowls and they are poured out against the Beast and his kingdom. We are given a place of safety to flee, Zech 14.

Saved_Forever · Jul 8, 2013

PlainWord said:

Actually, it does. But not in Revelation. Matt 24:29-31, Mark:13:24-27, Acts 1:9-11 and most importantly 1 Cor 15:51-52.

It seems the common problem here is that people tend to use only one verse to make a story of. For me, I take every verse that pertains to that story to try to make sense of it. Not just one.

Also, who is your beast? You never said who or what it is.

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

Doulos,

I really, really loved your post, especially this part.

Tribulation is for the believer, wrath is for the nonbeliever. The Greek word for tribulation is thlipsis, also translated affliction and trouble. Thlipsis is used 37 times in the New Testament, it almost always refers to the suffering of the saints.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have [thlipsis] tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the
world.

Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in [thlipsis] tribulation; continuing instant in prayer.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [thlipsis] tribulations that ye endure.

Generally speaking, the unsaved don't go through thlipsis; they are destined for orgy or thumos, God's wrath.1 Orgy and thumos are the two Greek words for wrath. So we saints will suffer tribulation during the Christian Era, but we are not destined unto a final wrath, but unto eternal salvation.2 The wicked are destined unto final wrath, the judgment of the Great White Throne, and the second death.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The tribulation of the saints began during John's time. But is that the time of great tribulation?

Well done!!

Saved_Forever · Jul 8, 2013

PlainWord said:

Doulos,

I really, really loved your post, especially this part.

Tribulation is for the believer, wrath is for the nonbeliever. The Greek word for tribulation is thlipsis, also translated affliction and trouble. Thlipsis is used 37 times in the New Testament, it almost always refers to the suffering of the saints.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have [thlipsis] tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the
world.

Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in [thlipsis] tribulation; continuing instant in prayer.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [thlipsis] tribulations that ye endure.

Generally speaking, the unsaved don't go through thlipsis; they are destined for orgy or thumos, God's wrath.1 Orgy and thumos are the two Greek words for wrath. So we saints will suffer tribulation during the Christian Era, but we are not destined unto a final wrath, but unto eternal salvation.2 The wicked are destined unto final wrath, the judgment of the Great White Throne, and the second death.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The tribulation of the saints began during John's time. But is that the time of great tribulation?

Well done!!

Tribulation pretty much has always been going on. The specific tribulation (Dan 12:1-3, Matt 24:21-22, Mark 13:19-20, Luke 21:24, Dan 9:24) are all specific tribulation for Jewish people ONLY!

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

Saved_Forever said:

In none of those passages does it say the "Raptured" are taken to heaven. Please if you quote scripture, quote it accurately. Caught up in the clouds is NOT being taken to heaven. One can take a ride in a hot air balloon without going to heaven. Sorry, I had a bad day, lost my house today.

The Beast has not yet been identified. Therefore we are at no risk of being raptured today. 2 Thes 2.

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

Saved_Forever said:

Now you lost me. It doesn't say that anywhere. Please don't use conjecture. Quote the Bible. Thank you.

Saved_Forever · Jul 8, 2013

PlainWord said:

I did. And you know too there is no such word called rapture anywhere in the Bible. You just have your mind twisted around false doctrine you call God's word. Yeah, I know. It's harsh. The real problem is that old folks (adults) have a tendency to be stuck in a rut and unwilling to change.

The beast has indeed been identified. But if I tell you, you would not believe it. The beast is among us today, right now!

If you don't want to learn more, whether it's right or wrong, tell me now. I will cease talking to you to throw some insight that might be valuable to you because if you have no intention of learning or growing, then I'm wasting my time with you.

What's it going to be? Do we learn together or go our separate ways?

Saved_Forever · Jul 8, 2013

PlainWord said:

I can't. If I did you always say that I'm wrong because you don't want to take in to consideration that I may be right. refer back to my previous post. If you want to study what I said and get a complete understanding of what I'm saying, I'll quote the passages you ask for.

I don't conjecture. If I don't know something, such as the time and date Jesus returns, I'll say so.

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

Saved_Forever said:

I would love to know who the beast is so please shed some light. I do agree he is on the earth right now and I have a couple of ideas but none strong enough to voice publicly just yet. I firmly believe the Tribulation will start sometime after 2025 but before 2033. Reasons for those dates I don't mind sharing.

We are almost the same age. I used to believe in the Pre-trib Rapture up until a few years ago, so I am willing to change my views if something is presented to me that is compelling. So, let's continue and see where this goes.

PlainWord · Jul 8, 2013

Saved_Forever,

We are both relatively new on here. My main reason for joining this site is to try to convince people that the Pre-Trib Rapture is a false doctrine and is very dangerous. I have made many detailed posts on the subject in multiple threads. At least one Christian who believed this lie is now reconsidering his belief system. But so many more need to wake up to this lie which Satan is behind.

The end times are coming fast and we need to be prepared. I went back and looked at an older post of yours which I am cutting and pasting in red now. My comments in blue.

No one knows the return of Jesus. That is true. Yes, but we can nail down the time frame. We know he comes after the gospel is preached in all the world. According to Wycliffe, they will be done translating the Bible into every known language and dialect by 2025. We also know Jesus was resurrected sometime between 0027 and 0033 AD. I believe the world is approx 6,000 years old. We know the number 7 represents completion. As God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th so will there be 6,000 years of Satan's rule and we rest from him for the 7th or 1,000 year millennium period. The earth was destroyed approx 1,600 years after creation. God established His chosen people of Jacob about 2,000 years into creation. So we have three equal 2,000 year periods. The return of Jesus and the end of Gentile control are two different things. The Gentile control is over. If you say it isn't, then I need to ask you who is in control of Israel? Is it the Gentiles? No? then it only leaves us with one other possibility. The Jews. Like it or not, that's the way it is. I can't change history. Since June, 1967, the Jews are indeed in control of that land and the ones who lost it are fighting to try to get it back but will fail. It is written that once the Jews regained the land back, God will see to it that it will never be lost again. 100% agree with you!!

Yes, the great tribulation has indeed occurred. Disagree. If you read my other post earlier, I have explained it. There will be no sacrifices being done during the new testament. Disagree. I think there is strong evidence that many of the devout Jews in Jerusalem, who don't believe Christ was the Messiah, will rebuild the temple and resume sacrifices. I believe this is what Daniel and the Lord were saying relative to future end times. However, I do see a parallel to the end times and what happened around AD 70 in Jerusalem. That is old testament philosophy. As I stated earlier, you can make one if you want but it will mean absolutely nothing. Read post #122 again. The tribulation are for the Jewish people only as indicated by Dan 9:24 and Dan 12. It depends what you view as the "Tribulation." I view it as the 6th seal until the 7th trumpet as the period we all go through with many of the events being Global in scale. I don't see any of these events 6th seal through 7th trumpet as having occurred already. The Bowl judgments are being poured out against the Beast and his kingdom. Since the Beast set up his Kingdom in Jerusalem, I see a lot of pain coming to that region especially as the Lord returns and begins to take back his city and punish and kill all those who oppose Him.

Dan 12 also says when the scattering of the holy people will be completed as well and it ended in 1967. Too much to explain now but it's Biblical. The time of the Gentiles is over as of 1967 unless you want the Gentiles to somehow regain control of it but that won't happen. I agree

doulos · Jul 8, 2013

PlainWord said:

Rev 10:6-7 And swore by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that are in it, and the earth, and the things that are in it, and the sea, and the things which are in it, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he will reign for ever and ever.

As the above verses about the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump demonstrate at the seventh trump there is time no longer, the mystery of God is finished and we have entered into the eternal kingdom. Everything is finished at the seventh trump. Why would you believe the seven bowls come after the mystery of God is finished? Why would you believe the seven bowls occur after there is time no longer? Why would you believe the seven bowls occur after we have left the millenial kingdom and entered the eternal kingdom?

doulos · Jul 8, 2013

PlainWord said:

2Th2 makes no mention of the beast. 2Th 2 speaks of the man of sin, if you want to find the man of sin you must first understand what/where the temple of God is. It is not a man made building. (see1Coe3:16-17, 2Cor6:16, Eph2:19-21, Acts7:48 and Acts17:24). An excellent article on the man of sin can be found
HERE <click

Unfortunately many of the commonly taught false doctrines concerning the endtimes teach that the beast of Rev13:2 is a boogeyman called the antichrist. Unfortunately those views do not match Scripture and as a result are doing exactly what Christ warned us against doing in Mark7:13.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

When we study the book of Daniel we can see that beasts used in figurative language of prophecy are kingdoms. Daniel’s lion beast was Babylon, the bears beast was Medo-Persia, and the leopard beast was Greece.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day, and for ever.

As the above verses demonstrate God/Christ/Word is unchanging. So if a beast is kingdom in Daniel it will still be a kingdom in Revelation.

Rev 13:2-3And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

The dragon (satan per Rev12:9 and Rev20:2) gives this beast it’s power. So who is this leaopard bear and lion beast? In Daniel we see a lion beast, a bear beast and a leopard beast. The fullfillment of Daniel’s prophecy has shown us the lion was Babylon, the bear was Medo-Persia and the leopard was Greece. Can those kingdoms have anything to do with the John’s leopard bear and lion beast? The geographic locations that once occupied Daniel’s lion, bear and leopard kingdoms are now occupied by satan’s spiritual kingdom of islam. The lion which was Babylon is now occupied by Iraq (97% of the population is islamic), the bear was Medo-Persia now occupied by Iran (98% of the population is islamic) and the leaopard was Greece now occupied by Syria/Lebanon (Lebanon approximately 60% of it’s population is islamic and Syria has approximatley 74% of it’s population being islamic).

The beast of Rev13:2 is islam which now firmly controls those areas despite the fact that they are not united by government or geographic location. What does unite those entities is the satanically inspired spirit of antichrist, as all who follow islams child doing, lying, thieving, murdering (per islams own writings) false prophet muhammad are required to deny that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

doulos · Jul 8, 2013

PlainWord said:

As I have already demonstrated in my last post the beast is islam not a man. Considering how much of Scripture concerns prophecy it is impossible to provide a fully detailed explanation in a few posts on this forum. To gain a fuller understanding of this view may I suggest you read the free online book The False Prophet <click
If after reading that book which provides a basic overview of the reasoning and Scripture that proves islam is the beast you would like a more indepth study on the subject you can download a free study guide on the subject HERE You might also find this WEBSITE <click interesting.

May God bless your studies!

2LIVE4GOD · Jul 8, 2013

brother PlainWord....

YOU STATED:

BEFORE I BEGIN... FORGIVE FOR CHOPPING UP YOUR ORIGINAL POST... BUT I JUST WANT TO HIT THE POINTS YOU ARE MAKING ABOUT A PRE-TRIBULATION AS A FALSE TEACHING ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES YOU QUOTED FROM AN EARLIER POST....

THE SCRIPTURES YOU USED AS PROOF:

MATTHEW 24:29-31...
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

MARK 13:24-27...
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

for instance in Matthew 24:29-31 AND MARK 13:24-27... this is the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST WITH HIS BRIDE... as shown in REVELATION 19 which GOD HIMSELF shows and starts in HEAVEN with the BRIDE ALREADY AT THE GREAT WEDDING FEAST AND THEN THE SECOND COMING... to battle the antichrist and his armies... known as the Battle of Armageddon... and then the Millennium Kingdom is set up for 1,000 years with the KING AND HIS BRIDE along with the Great Multitude from REVELATION 7:9-17 AND REVELATION 20:4-6...   

also did you not notice that my LORD JESUS CHRIST in both Matthew 24:29-31 AND MARK 13:24-27 discusses the 6 seals but excludes the LAST 7th SEAL... and then states AFTER THAT TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS... my LORD JESUS CHRIST is STILL DISCUSSING what he just REVEALED to them about those 6 seals AND SAYS AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION then he himself shall be returning back to reign as KING WITH HIS BRIDE... the elect mentioned here is not the BRIDE but those... being JEWS/ GENTILES/ NON-BELIEVERS... remained and went through the GREAT TRIBULATION... which we see in REVELATION 20:4-6...

1 THESSALONIANS 4:15-17...
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

now this HOLY SCRIPTURE is about the BRIDE MEETING MY LORD JESUS CHRIST IN THE AIR ONLY... but my LORD JESUS CHRIST never descends fully down to earth to battle the antichrist and set up his KINGDOM as mentioned in his SECOND COMING...

TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS... MEETING IN THE AIR AND THE SECOND COMING...

GOD BLESS...

also i have no clue what you meant by an 1820 cultist false doctrine...

 

PlainWord · Jul 9, 2013

doulos said:

The mystery of God is revealed and His kingdom is established at the 7th trumpet. We seem to agree on that. But Jesus still has to defeat the beast and his kingdom. We see this explained in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Zechariah and other places. They describe a battle that Jesus and the saints engage in at the 6-7th seals. We then have the Millennial Kingdom period of 1,000 years, see Rev 20. Following that the Old heaven and old earth pass away, then we have the new heaven and new earth and live and reign forever.

Saved_Forever · Jul 9, 2013

PlainWord said:

Before you say we don't know what we're talking about, may I suggest you get a grasp on what Doulos has sent you to read? Seems like you have already condemned his message without understanding it.

I know what you and others are doing. You are attempting to see if Doulos' statements meet your approval based on what you believe. So, who do you want to believe? Your doctrine or Jesus' doctrine? I assure you, what Jesus has in plans to do is WAY different than what you want Him to do.

I believed pretty much what you currently believe in right now but when I seriously looked carefully into it, I found myself to be in error. I was trying to make the Bible what I wanted it to be rather than listening to the Bible and changing myself to be like the Bible. Once I hurdled over that, everything started to come into focus.

Study what he gave you to read and see where it leads you.

PlainWord · Jul 9, 2013

doulos said:

Doulos,

I firmly believe Islam will play an increasingly prominent role in end times events. The beheading of Christians in the end times has a stark Islamic feel. The enemies that will come against Israel in the end times are already setting the stage; counties like Turkey, Lebanon, Iran, Ethiopia, and the Muslim countries of the former Soviet Union, etc.

But we are told concerning the Beast, "Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man and his number is 666." Does this mean he is a man, not sure. I agree that Islam is likely the religion in opposition to Christ, whether or not it is lead by a man known as the beast, anti-Christ, false prophet or whatever you is of minor importance to me. We are also told that the Son of Perdition who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, has to happen before the coming. This has the feel of a man and not just a religion.

I have not had time to check out all the links and information you have provided but hope to ASAP. Thanks

PlainWord · Jul 9, 2013

Saved_Forever said:

I have been busy, not meaning to diss you guys. I have a hectic life and while this stuff interests me greatly, I don't always have the time to fully respond to everything or everyone, sorry. I will check out the stuff you believe in ASAP. I am interested in your views and I don't and won't discount them without giving them a serious look. I am by no means closed to new ideas as long as they make sense and are scriptural. Thanks.

PlainWord · Jul 9, 2013

PlainWord said:

The mystery of God is revealed and His kingdom is established at the 7th trumpet. We seem to agree on that. But Jesus still has to defeat the beast and his kingdom. We see this explained in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Zechariah and other places. They describe a battle that Jesus and the saints engage in at the 6-7th seals. We then have the Millennial Kingdom period of 1,000 years, see Rev 20. Following that the Old heaven and old earth pass away, then we have the new heaven and new earth and live and reign forever.

Meant to say bowls here.

Saved_Forever · Jul 10, 2013

PlainWord said:

That's what we like to hear. Just like Rome wasn't built in a day, you won't learn all of this in a day either.

Just stick with it and give it a chance to develop!

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