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S
I am saying:
457 B.C. - The decree went forth to rebuild the city.
445 B.C. - The wall of the city is built in 52 days.
405 B.C. - The rebuilding of the city ends 52 years after the decree went forth.
- 3 B.C. - Christ is born in Bethlehem.
- - - - -- ( Remember that there is no year 0. )
-30 A.D. - Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends.
- - - - -- ( NOT 434 years after the end of the 7th week - look carefully at Daniel 9:25-26 )
-34 A.D. - Daniel's 70 weeks end 70 x 7 = 490 years after the decree went forth.
This is from memory. I lost my notes from the study years ago.
NOW --- this thread has gotten side-tracked ( again ) -- and, I want it to get back on track - by examining Luke 21:24 as I have been trying to do for weeks...
Luke 21:24 must be a very powerful verse -- and intimidating, too!
-- because nobody seems to be willing to touch it with a 1000-foot pole!
THIS verse seems to create questions -- the possible answers to which I want to discuss.
I do not want to discuss "outside" or "third party" opinions. I want to know how YOU ( other CCers ) interpret this verse - in the context of the Olivet Discourse passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ~ Luke 21:24
I believe that it aligns with Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 - which both describe the beginning of "a period of great tribulation":
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ~ Matthew 24:21
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. ~ Mark 13:19
The end of that same 'great tribulation' is marked by what is described in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-27. ( Please see the chart. )
So then - we see everything described in Luke 21:34 as occurring after the beginning of the 'great tribulation'.
And, we see the 'great tribulation' continuing until [ certain events ] that occur [ a short time ] before the Second Coming of Christ.
If the abomination of desolation occurred around 70 A.D. - then it would seem that we are in the [ ~ 2000 year ] great tribulation now.
If the abomination of desolation is yet future - how do you explain the description in Luke 21:24?
WITH REGARD TO THIS VERSE - in the context of the Olivet Discourse:
When did / does the abomination of desolation occur?
How do you define the details of the description in Luke 21:24 in a way that "fits" the answer to the previous question?
In other words - define the "details" that I am talking about in a such a way that THIS VERSE makes complete sense.
457 B.C. - The decree went forth to rebuild the city.
445 B.C. - The wall of the city is built in 52 days.
405 B.C. - The rebuilding of the city ends 52 years after the decree went forth.
- 3 B.C. - Christ is born in Bethlehem.
- - - - -- ( Remember that there is no year 0. )
-30 A.D. - Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends.
- - - - -- ( NOT 434 years after the end of the 7th week - look carefully at Daniel 9:25-26 )
-34 A.D. - Daniel's 70 weeks end 70 x 7 = 490 years after the decree went forth.
This is from memory. I lost my notes from the study years ago.
NOW --- this thread has gotten side-tracked ( again ) -- and, I want it to get back on track - by examining Luke 21:24 as I have been trying to do for weeks...
Luke 21:24 must be a very powerful verse -- and intimidating, too!
-- because nobody seems to be willing to touch it with a 1000-foot pole! THIS verse seems to create questions -- the possible answers to which I want to discuss.
I do not want to discuss "outside" or "third party" opinions. I want to know how YOU ( other CCers ) interpret this verse - in the context of the Olivet Discourse passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ~ Luke 21:24
I believe that it aligns with Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 - which both describe the beginning of "a period of great tribulation":
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ~ Matthew 24:21
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. ~ Mark 13:19
The end of that same 'great tribulation' is marked by what is described in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-27. ( Please see the chart. )
So then - we see everything described in Luke 21:34 as occurring after the beginning of the 'great tribulation'.
And, we see the 'great tribulation' continuing until [ certain events ] that occur [ a short time ] before the Second Coming of Christ.
If the abomination of desolation occurred around 70 A.D. - then it would seem that we are in the [ ~ 2000 year ] great tribulation now.
If the abomination of desolation is yet future - how do you explain the description in Luke 21:24?
WITH REGARD TO THIS VERSE - in the context of the Olivet Discourse:
When did / does the abomination of desolation occur?
How do you define the details of the description in Luke 21:24 in a way that "fits" the answer to the previous question?
In other words - define the "details" that I am talking about in a such a way that THIS VERSE makes complete sense.
12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Now, we do not have any sacrifices anymore and this is an old testament verse of which daily sacrifices were necessary. This verse, just like Dan 9:24-27 has a starting point, an amount of time to pass and the outcome.
Daily sacrifices taken away 1290 days A of D
<-------------------------------------------------->
This is my simplified little graph. That is what it says. There will be no more sacrifices Biblically speaking for new testament times. Now, you can create a daily sacrificing schedule but it will mean absolutely nothing. Do so if it will make you happy. Daily sacrifices are old testament procedures so that's where you need to look. Daniel SAW when the sacrifices were taken away. That was during the 70 year captivity. 606BC is the start of the captivity period and 23 years later (583 BC), the last of the Jews were removed and daily sacrifices were no more! If you take literal days will be 3.5 years based on the 360 day calender year cycle. Nothing happened. They were still in captivity. After the 70 year captivity the 70 weeks prophecy was given and three years later, Dan 12 was given. Just like you did in Dan 9:24-27, you calculated it out to be day/years. Try that here. Since you will be going between the old and new testament calender cycles of 360 days per year to 365.24 days per year, a minor alteration must be applied here. 365.24 / 360 = .9857. .9857 X 1290 = 1271.5. 1271.5 - 583 = 688 AD, the construction of the Dome of the Rock.
Now, to back this up, Rev 11:1-2 talks about the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled as well as Dan 12:1-9 but for right now, I'll just talk about Rev 11. We know that the Jewish people are now in control of Israel because of that 6 day war in 1967. Very simplistic here but you must understand that the Dome of the Rock was built on the wrong rock! That's another lengthy topic but it was built where the court of the Gentiles used to be. Therefore, the Dome of the Rock was built upon the Court of the Gentiles just as Rev 11:2 is saying. the court without the temple (God's temple) must be left out and not measured for this is given to the Gentiles for 42 months from that point of time. Whatever the starting point is may be unclear but I can assure you the time of the Gentiles is over right now! Since 1967, the Gentiles lost control over the land that they once occupied for over 2500 years. Knowing this information of the 6 day war AND 42 months, where does it take us back to the beginning? Let's figure it out just like we did the last one remaining consistency. We have 42 months. How many average days are there in a month? 365.24 / 12 = 30.44 days per average month. We have 42 of them. 42 X 30.44 = 1278.5 day/years. We know the Gentile control over Israel is over based on the 1967 6 day war and we're looking back in time to when this prophecy started,we need to subtract, so, 1967 - 1278.5 = 688.5 AD, the construction of the Dome of the Rock again!
There is plenty more proof I can give you but I think this is enough for this segment.
Oh, and for all you people who think 70 AD is the A of D, think again. These, according to the Olivet Discourse, are two separate entities. 70 AD happens first and then, years later, the Abomination of Desolation occurs. They are nowhere close to each other!
G
Daniel 11:31-45 :
[SUP]31[/SUP] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [SUP]32[/SUP] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [SUP]33[/SUP] And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [SUP]34[/SUP] Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [SUP]35[/SUP] And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [SUP]36[/SUP] And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. [SUP]37[/SUP] Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. [SUP]38[/SUP] But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. [SUP]39[/SUP] Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. [SUP]40[/SUP]And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. [SUP]41[/SUP] He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. [SUP]42[/SUP] He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. [SUP]43[/SUP] But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. [SUP]44[/SUP] But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. [SUP]45[/SUP] And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
How long of a span of time do you think is indicated in the above verses?
It seems to me like there is a long period of time following the Abomination of Desolation...
Daniel 12:1 :
[SUP]1[/SUP] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Interestingly, the very next verse makes it sound like there is a long period of time following the Abomination of Desolation - before the Great Tribulation ... ?
However - contrast this with Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 - both of which seem to indicate a very short span of time between the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation ... ?
[SUP]31[/SUP] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [SUP]32[/SUP] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [SUP]33[/SUP] And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [SUP]34[/SUP] Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [SUP]35[/SUP] And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [SUP]36[/SUP] And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. [SUP]37[/SUP] Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. [SUP]38[/SUP] But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. [SUP]39[/SUP] Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. [SUP]40[/SUP]And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. [SUP]41[/SUP] He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. [SUP]42[/SUP] He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. [SUP]43[/SUP] But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. [SUP]44[/SUP] But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. [SUP]45[/SUP] And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
How long of a span of time do you think is indicated in the above verses?
It seems to me like there is a long period of time following the Abomination of Desolation...
Daniel 12:1 :
[SUP]1[/SUP] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Interestingly, the very next verse makes it sound like there is a long period of time following the Abomination of Desolation - before the Great Tribulation ... ?
However - contrast this with Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 - both of which seem to indicate a very short span of time between the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation ... ?
Daniel 11:31-45 :
[SUP]31[/SUP] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [SUP]32[/SUP] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [SUP]33[/SUP] And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [SUP]34[/SUP] Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [SUP]35[/SUP] And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [SUP]36[/SUP] And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. [SUP]37[/SUP] Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. [SUP]38[/SUP] But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. [SUP]39[/SUP] Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. [SUP]40[/SUP]And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. [SUP]41[/SUP] He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. [SUP]42[/SUP] He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. [SUP]43[/SUP] But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. [SUP]44[/SUP] But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. [SUP]45[/SUP] And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
How long of a span of time do you think is indicated in the above verses?
It seems to me like there is a long period of time following the Abomination of Desolation...
Daniel 12:1 :
[SUP]1[/SUP] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Interestingly, the very next verse makes it sound like there is a long period of time following the Abomination of Desolation - before the Great Tribulation ... ?
However - contrast this with Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 - both of which seem to indicate a very short span of time between the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation ... ?
[SUP]31[/SUP] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [SUP]32[/SUP] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [SUP]33[/SUP] And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [SUP]34[/SUP] Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [SUP]35[/SUP] And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [SUP]36[/SUP] And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. [SUP]37[/SUP] Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. [SUP]38[/SUP] But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. [SUP]39[/SUP] Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. [SUP]40[/SUP]And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. [SUP]41[/SUP] He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. [SUP]42[/SUP] He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. [SUP]43[/SUP] But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. [SUP]44[/SUP] But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. [SUP]45[/SUP] And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
How long of a span of time do you think is indicated in the above verses?
It seems to me like there is a long period of time following the Abomination of Desolation...
Daniel 12:1 :
[SUP]1[/SUP] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Interestingly, the very next verse makes it sound like there is a long period of time following the Abomination of Desolation - before the Great Tribulation ... ?
However - contrast this with Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 - both of which seem to indicate a very short span of time between the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation ... ?
Rev 16:15 bothers me a lot too:
[h=3]Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and[SUP][f][/SUP] of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.[SUP][g][/SUP]
Preparing for this battle logistically will take time. It cannot happen all in one day because the demons have to gather the kings of the whole world together. Therefore I think the Lord doesn't defeat all His enemies on this one day. Perhaps He just helps his people flee.
The Ezekiel war has to last quite some time as we know that it takes the whole nation 7 months just to bury all the dead.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified,” says the Lord God.
This all happens BEFORE the day that the Lord is glorified which begs another question. Is the Lord glorified on the same day that He returns, AKA the Day of the Lord, or on a future day when all His enemies are defeated?
S
Why are you people so hooked on 70 AD being the Abomination of Desolation? They are two separate and totally different events. 70 AD event is mentioned in the book of Matt at verse 2. That was completed when the temple was destroyed. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not work with verse 15 which is the Abomination of Desolation. This is a totally separate event. Verse 15 simply means something detestable will be erected in Jerusalem. How can 70 AD, destruction of the temple AND construction of a detestable object be the same thing?
Look, how much do you know about Islam? In case any of you are unfamiliar with what Islam is, read "Prophet of Doom" which is a web site. Just Google it and start reading. Islam DOES NOT believe Jesus is the Son of God, the trinity or His death and resurrection. If you don't have a Quran available, I'll be glad to print them out for you right here.
Sura 4:171 People of the Book, (Christians and Jews) do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
or this one.
Sura 4:157-158.
That they said (in their boast), "We killed the Messiah Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), The Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety They killed him not-Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise-
The Dome of the Rock has these inscriptions written in the walls of it. Look it up. Read all the writings on the walls of that Mosque. To a Christian, this is blasphemy. To a Muslim, this is holy! This is an Abomination to ALL Christians! Thus, this is your verse Matt 15 and Mark 13:14. Luke 21 is the same thing except it refers to a takeover by the Muslims when they (Muslims) created the Dome of the Rock.
Look, how much do you know about Islam? In case any of you are unfamiliar with what Islam is, read "Prophet of Doom" which is a web site. Just Google it and start reading. Islam DOES NOT believe Jesus is the Son of God, the trinity or His death and resurrection. If you don't have a Quran available, I'll be glad to print them out for you right here.
Sura 4:171 People of the Book, (Christians and Jews) do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
or this one.
Sura 4:157-158.
That they said (in their boast), "We killed the Messiah Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), The Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety They killed him not-Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise-
The Dome of the Rock has these inscriptions written in the walls of it. Look it up. Read all the writings on the walls of that Mosque. To a Christian, this is blasphemy. To a Muslim, this is holy! This is an Abomination to ALL Christians! Thus, this is your verse Matt 15 and Mark 13:14. Luke 21 is the same thing except it refers to a takeover by the Muslims when they (Muslims) created the Dome of the Rock.
Don't get me wrong -- I enjoy a good discussion - and sometimes - even "running rabbits" can prove to be beneficial. However, this thread "has the very important purpose in mind" of determining the correct and proper understanding of those things written about in the 'Olivet Discourse' passages.
I do not want this thread to get off into every "rabbit trail" imaginable - and get away from the "current focus" ( Luke 21:24 ) for the next 125 posts. I want it to stay focused - right now - on Luke 21:24 -- "until it makes perfect sense"...
Please address the questions that I have asked -- because, the answers to these questions are what is going to "satisfy" my 'quandary' with this verse.
"I increased the font size of some of the text in the above quote for emphasis - I am not trying to yell at anyone..."
I do not want this thread to get off into every "rabbit trail" imaginable - and get away from the "current focus" ( Luke 21:24 ) for the next 125 posts. I want it to stay focused - right now - on Luke 21:24 -- "until it makes perfect sense"...
Please address the questions that I have asked -- because, the answers to these questions are what is going to "satisfy" my 'quandary' with this verse.
"I increased the font size of some of the text in the above quote for emphasis - I am not trying to yell at anyone..."
brother GRA...
LUKE 21:24...
[SUP]24. [/SUP]And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
this is a prophecy to ISRAEL that they shall no longer have a homeland and that they shall be conquered and scattered around the world... and that the world shall come and dwell in their land and take what was theirs until the GENTILE DISPENSATION IS FULFILLED... then and only then shall GOD return to the JEWS for 3 1/2 years back in their homeland once again... for in DANIEL 9 we see that 69 1/2 weeks have passed out of 70... therefore there shall only be 3 1/2 years after the BRIDE IS RAPTURED TILL THE SECOND COMING... for GOD isn't done with the Jews yet... that is why GOD has called all Jews back to ISRAEL on May 14, 1948...
we are at the end of days for the GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE and the BRIDE SHALL BE RAPTURED BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION...
S
Then we should be done, right? 1967 is the fulfillment if the time of the Gentiles. I'm still here. You are still here. The Jews control Israel and no return. Is it possible you made a mistake? I'd say so.
We are here right now according to these verses.
Luke 21:29-33 “And he spake to them a parable; Behold
the fig tree (Israel), and all the trees (the surrounding
nations); When they now shoot forth (leaves not
spiritual fruit), ye see and know of your own selves
that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye,
when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that
the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto
you, This generation (of the people who were alive
and helped Israel become a nation in 1948) shall not
pass away (shall still be alive), till all be fulfilled (at
the return of Jesus). Heaven and earth shall pass
away: but my words shall not pass away.”
So, there are a few things left but not much. Just how long is a generation? Not sure. Maybe a 100 years? Could be 50 years. I don't know. What I do know is that it could (maybe so or maybe not) happen at any time. According to the discourse, we are at Matt 24:29. All the events before this are all fulfilled. That also includes verse 21!
We are here right now according to these verses.
Luke 21:29-33 “And he spake to them a parable; Behold
the fig tree (Israel), and all the trees (the surrounding
nations); When they now shoot forth (leaves not
spiritual fruit), ye see and know of your own selves
that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye,
when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that
the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto
you, This generation (of the people who were alive
and helped Israel become a nation in 1948) shall not
pass away (shall still be alive), till all be fulfilled (at
the return of Jesus). Heaven and earth shall pass
away: but my words shall not pass away.”
So, there are a few things left but not much. Just how long is a generation? Not sure. Maybe a 100 years? Could be 50 years. I don't know. What I do know is that it could (maybe so or maybe not) happen at any time. According to the discourse, we are at Matt 24:29. All the events before this are all fulfilled. That also includes verse 21!
brother Saved_Forever...
1967 was and is not the end of the GENTILE DISPENSATION... no man knows the very day or hour but we are given signs by GOD HIMSELF showing and pointing to us the VERY HOUR WE LIVE IN AND TO BE READY...
for the BRIDE HERSELF IS STILL HERE and the Great Tribulation hasn't even occurred... yet you obviously believe WE ARE IN the Second Coming according to your placement of were we are in this world with your scripture of MATTHEW 24:29...
for the world will know when the BRIDE IS GONE... for the anti-christ will be made known then and only when the BRIDE IS RAPTURED... the Synagogue will then be on its original spot on top of the HOLY MOUNT ITSELF AS WELL making sacrifices once again as stated in GOD'S OWN HOLY WORD...
these have not been fulfilled yet...
GOD BLESS AND MAY GOD FILL US WITH HIS GODLY TRUTH GUIDING US TO HIS LOVING ARMS ALWAYS...
Guys,
The "Rapture" occurs at the Last Trump, which is the 7th trumpet. We all go through this part of the Tribulation but escape the Great Tribulation of the 7 Bowls which are poured out on the Beast and his kingdom. I just want to make sure we are all on the same page on this?
As for "this generation will not pass", the fig tree parable. We do NOT know if the fig tree example here represents the formation of the Jewish state as many think. The Lord could have used any fruit bearing tree to tell us that those who see these signs will not pass away. Read again.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. [SUP]33 [/SUP]So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[SUP][d][/SUP] is near—at the doors! [SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
You can take 1948, 1967 and add 40 years (which most count as a generation) and it gives you nothing as we are passed that. Or you can take the passages that describe the Jews being gathered from the four corners of the earth. They are still being gathered under the "On the Wings of Eagles" program which is still on going. We saw 1 million Russian Jews migrate to Israel just since 1990.
The "Rapture" occurs at the Last Trump, which is the 7th trumpet. We all go through this part of the Tribulation but escape the Great Tribulation of the 7 Bowls which are poured out on the Beast and his kingdom. I just want to make sure we are all on the same page on this?
As for "this generation will not pass", the fig tree parable. We do NOT know if the fig tree example here represents the formation of the Jewish state as many think. The Lord could have used any fruit bearing tree to tell us that those who see these signs will not pass away. Read again.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. [SUP]33 [/SUP]So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[SUP][d][/SUP] is near—at the doors! [SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
You can take 1948, 1967 and add 40 years (which most count as a generation) and it gives you nothing as we are passed that. Or you can take the passages that describe the Jews being gathered from the four corners of the earth. They are still being gathered under the "On the Wings of Eagles" program which is still on going. We saw 1 million Russian Jews migrate to Israel just since 1990.
brother PlainWord...
the RAPTURING OF THE BRIDE OCCURS IN REVELATIONS 4... BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
each seal has been opened, each trumpet has been blown, and each vial has been poured...
A seal is a message coming forth from GOD HIMSELF from HEAVEN to all on Earth...
A trumpet is an announcement/teaching of that message to us from GOD HIMSELF for all on Earth...
A vial is judgement to those who reject GOD'S MESSAGE here on Earth at the end of each seal be declared done...
THE LAST GREAT TRUMP ENDS ALL THINGS AND A NEW EARTH AND NEW HEAVEN REIGNS IN...
GOD BLESS...
the RAPTURING OF THE BRIDE OCCURS IN REVELATIONS 4... BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
each seal has been opened, each trumpet has been blown, and each vial has been poured...
A seal is a message coming forth from GOD HIMSELF from HEAVEN to all on Earth...
A trumpet is an announcement/teaching of that message to us from GOD HIMSELF for all on Earth...
A vial is judgement to those who reject GOD'S MESSAGE here on Earth at the end of each seal be declared done...
THE LAST GREAT TRUMP ENDS ALL THINGS AND A NEW EARTH AND NEW HEAVEN REIGNS IN...
GOD BLESS...
Here is Revelation 4. Please show me where you see the Bride being Raptured. I only see John going up in the spirit to be shown things. I don't see a trumpet being sounded, just a voice that sounds like a trumpet. The sounding of the last trumpet is required. I also don't see anywhere before Rev 4 the Beast being revealed which is also required per Paul.
[h=3]The Throne Room of Heaven
[/h]4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And He who sat there was[SUP][a][/SUP] like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns[SUP][b][/SUP] of gold on their heads. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices.[SUP][c][/SUP] Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the[SUP][d][/SUP] seven Spirits of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Before the throne there was[SUP][e][/SUP] a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. [SUP]8 [/SUP]The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy, holy, holy,[SUP][f][/SUP]
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, [SUP]10 [/SUP]the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“You are worthy, O Lord,[SUP][g][/SUP]
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist[SUP][h][/SUP] and were created.”
[h=3]The Throne Room of Heaven
[/h]4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And He who sat there was[SUP][a][/SUP] like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns[SUP][b][/SUP] of gold on their heads. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices.[SUP][c][/SUP] Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the[SUP][d][/SUP] seven Spirits of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Before the throne there was[SUP][e][/SUP] a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. [SUP]8 [/SUP]The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy, holy, holy,[SUP][f][/SUP]
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, [SUP]10 [/SUP]the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“You are worthy, O Lord,[SUP][g][/SUP]
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist[SUP][h][/SUP] and were created.”
Dear Brother 2LiveGod,
If the Rapture is BEFORE the Tribulation, please explain what is happening at the below starting with the Olivet Discourse and John 6, all of which are direct quotes from our Lord and Savior, the one doing the Rapturing.
Mat 24:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [SUP]25 [/SUP]the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
John 6:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
[SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Thes 4:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain (presumably through part of the Trib) until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Cor 15:
[SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed...
2 Thes 2:
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
So, what I see from the scriptures are these things:
Timing:
AFTER the Tribulation of those days
At the Last Trumpet
AFTER the Beast/Anti-Christ is revealed
At the Last Day
If the Rapture is BEFORE the Tribulation, please explain what is happening at the below starting with the Olivet Discourse and John 6, all of which are direct quotes from our Lord and Savior, the one doing the Rapturing.
Mat 24:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [SUP]25 [/SUP]the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
John 6:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
[SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Thes 4:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain (presumably through part of the Trib) until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Cor 15:
[SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed...
2 Thes 2:
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
So, what I see from the scriptures are these things:
Timing:
AFTER the Tribulation of those days
At the Last Trumpet
AFTER the Beast/Anti-Christ is revealed
At the Last Day
S
No one knows the return of Jesus. That is true. The return of Jesus and the end of Gentile control are two different things. The Gentile control is over. If you say it isn't, then I need to ask you who is in control of Israel? Is it the Gentiles? No? then it only leaves us with one other possibility. The Jews. Like it or not, that's the way it is. I can't change history. Since June, 1967, the Jews are indeed in control of that land and the ones who lost it are fighting to try to get it back but will fail. It is written that once the Jews regained the land back, God will see to it that it will never be lost again.
Yes, the great tribulation has indeed occurred. If you read my other post earlier, I have explained it. There will be no sacrifices being done during the new testament. That is old testament philosophy. As I stated earlier, you can make one if you want but it will mean absolutely nothing. Read post #122 again. The tribulation are for the Jewish people only as indicated by Dan 9:24 and Dan 12
Dan 12 also says when the scattering of the holy people will be completed as well and it ended in 1967. Too much to explain now but it's Biblical. The time of the Gentiles is over as of 1967 unless you want the Gentiles to somehow regain control of it but that won't happen.
Yes, the great tribulation has indeed occurred. If you read my other post earlier, I have explained it. There will be no sacrifices being done during the new testament. That is old testament philosophy. As I stated earlier, you can make one if you want but it will mean absolutely nothing. Read post #122 again. The tribulation are for the Jewish people only as indicated by Dan 9:24 and Dan 12
Dan 12 also says when the scattering of the holy people will be completed as well and it ended in 1967. Too much to explain now but it's Biblical. The time of the Gentiles is over as of 1967 unless you want the Gentiles to somehow regain control of it but that won't happen.
brother PlainWord...
REVELATION 1:1-20...
VERSES 1-8 is an introduction from a JEWISH PROPHET sent from GOD HIMSELF FROM HEAVEN who is revealing this very message of GOD to the PROPHET JOHN on the isle of Patmos...
VERSES 9-20 is the REVELATION of who my LORD JESUS CHRIST IS and the FAMOUS END TIME MESSAGE and how it shall be REVEALED bit by bit throughout each of the 7 CHURCH AGES till the FULL REVELATION of GOD'S TRUE HOLY WORD is REVEALED and FULFILLED in the 7th Church Age...
REVELATION 1:20...
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
so basically then each Church Age has a single messenger with a message from GOD HIMSELF... so then with this in mind GOD HIMSELF is speaking of a man who shall represent GOD'S HOLY TRUTH for each Church Age... for GOD'S HOLY WORD does say that man is an angel/messenger from GOD HIMSELF... Apostle Paul states this in GOD'S HOLY WORD... also the Church Ages is for the GENTILES ALONE... for GOD HIMSELF has stated that GOD has turned his back upon the Jews for now until the end of the GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE and then GOD shall return back to the Jews as stated by GOD'S HOLY WORD.
REVELATION CHAPTERS 2-3 is the GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE/CHURCH AGE and we are the Church Age "LAODICEA"... for in these 2 CHAPTERS we see that GOD HIMSELF is bringing a message to each Church through his messenger, judgement to those who are rejecting the message/the messenger/their wicked ways, and a rewarder to those who accept the message/the messenger...
REVELATION 3:21-22...
[SUP]21 [/SUP]To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
here is the last Church Age for this GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE in which a messenger came to FULFILL GOD'S HOLY WORD and bring a message to this Church Age as well... in which the BRIDE SHALL COME FORTH at this last Church Age which ends with the BRIDE HERSELF being RAPTURED while the rest of the Church Body remains to go through the Great Tribulation as shown throughout GOD'S HOLY WORD...
REVELATION 4:1-11....
now in the first verse the PROPHET JOHN is the PROPHET FOR THE GENTILES for he replaced APOSTLE PAUL after APOSTLE PAUL'S DEATH as the GENTILES PROPHET... and GOD HIMSELF ISN'T/HASN'T BEEN DEALING WITH THE JEWS SINCE THE CRUCIFIXION... FOR THE JEWS REJECTED IT...
anyways... so if the PROPHET JOHN represents the GENTILES and is taken before the THRONE OF GOD HIMSELF... this is the RAPTURING OF THE BRIDE to her BRIDEGROOM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE... this is the MARRIAGE FEAST spoken by GOD in REVELATION 19... REVELATION 19 is about the WEDDING FEAST AND THE SECOND COMING OF MY LORD JESUS CHRIST ALONG WITH HIS BRIDE who already sits on the HOLY THRONE which is shown in REVELATION 20.
and if you also notice in REVELATION 4:1-11... it is ALL in HEAVEN AND BEFORE THE THRONE... this is the RAPTURE.
REVELATION 4:1...
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
did you notice the words COME UP HITHER which is the RAPTURE and shew thee things which must be hereafter... this is the Great Tribulation...
GOD BLESS... AND MAY GOD HIMSELF GUIDE US TO HIS GODLY TRUTHS,,,
REVELATION 1:1-20...
VERSES 1-8 is an introduction from a JEWISH PROPHET sent from GOD HIMSELF FROM HEAVEN who is revealing this very message of GOD to the PROPHET JOHN on the isle of Patmos...
VERSES 9-20 is the REVELATION of who my LORD JESUS CHRIST IS and the FAMOUS END TIME MESSAGE and how it shall be REVEALED bit by bit throughout each of the 7 CHURCH AGES till the FULL REVELATION of GOD'S TRUE HOLY WORD is REVEALED and FULFILLED in the 7th Church Age...
REVELATION 1:20...
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
so basically then each Church Age has a single messenger with a message from GOD HIMSELF... so then with this in mind GOD HIMSELF is speaking of a man who shall represent GOD'S HOLY TRUTH for each Church Age... for GOD'S HOLY WORD does say that man is an angel/messenger from GOD HIMSELF... Apostle Paul states this in GOD'S HOLY WORD... also the Church Ages is for the GENTILES ALONE... for GOD HIMSELF has stated that GOD has turned his back upon the Jews for now until the end of the GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE and then GOD shall return back to the Jews as stated by GOD'S HOLY WORD.
REVELATION CHAPTERS 2-3 is the GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE/CHURCH AGE and we are the Church Age "LAODICEA"... for in these 2 CHAPTERS we see that GOD HIMSELF is bringing a message to each Church through his messenger, judgement to those who are rejecting the message/the messenger/their wicked ways, and a rewarder to those who accept the message/the messenger...
REVELATION 3:21-22...
[SUP]21 [/SUP]To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
here is the last Church Age for this GENTILE DISPENSATION AGE in which a messenger came to FULFILL GOD'S HOLY WORD and bring a message to this Church Age as well... in which the BRIDE SHALL COME FORTH at this last Church Age which ends with the BRIDE HERSELF being RAPTURED while the rest of the Church Body remains to go through the Great Tribulation as shown throughout GOD'S HOLY WORD...
REVELATION 4:1-11....
now in the first verse the PROPHET JOHN is the PROPHET FOR THE GENTILES for he replaced APOSTLE PAUL after APOSTLE PAUL'S DEATH as the GENTILES PROPHET... and GOD HIMSELF ISN'T/HASN'T BEEN DEALING WITH THE JEWS SINCE THE CRUCIFIXION... FOR THE JEWS REJECTED IT...
anyways... so if the PROPHET JOHN represents the GENTILES and is taken before the THRONE OF GOD HIMSELF... this is the RAPTURING OF THE BRIDE to her BRIDEGROOM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE... this is the MARRIAGE FEAST spoken by GOD in REVELATION 19... REVELATION 19 is about the WEDDING FEAST AND THE SECOND COMING OF MY LORD JESUS CHRIST ALONG WITH HIS BRIDE who already sits on the HOLY THRONE which is shown in REVELATION 20.
and if you also notice in REVELATION 4:1-11... it is ALL in HEAVEN AND BEFORE THE THRONE... this is the RAPTURE.
REVELATION 4:1...
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
did you notice the words COME UP HITHER which is the RAPTURE and shew thee things which must be hereafter... this is the Great Tribulation...
GOD BLESS... AND MAY GOD HIMSELF GUIDE US TO HIS GODLY TRUTHS,,,
D
Saved_Forever did not say the gentile dispensation ended in 1967, nor did he say the fullness of the gentiles occurred in 1967. What he did say was the time of the gentiles ended in 1967. That my friend is a biblically and historically accurate statement. The time of the gentiles refers to the time the gentiles control Jerusalem and as of 1967 for the first time in approximately 2500 years the Jews do control and govern Jerusalem. So whether it fits the traditionally taught doctines or not the time of the gentiles is over. Does that mean the fullness of the Gentiles has come in? Of course not, there are still Gentiles coming to the Lord daily.
Tribulation is for the believer, wrath is for the nonbeliever. The Greek word for tribulation is thlipsis, also translated affliction and trouble. Thlipsis is used 37 times in the New Testament, it almost always refers to the suffering of the saints.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have [thlipsis] tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the
world.
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in [thlipsis] tribulation; continuing instant in prayer.
2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [thlipsis] tribulations that ye endure.
Generally speaking, the unsaved don't go through thlipsis; they are destined for orgy or thumos, God's wrath.1 Orgy and thumos are the two Greek words for wrath. So we saints will suffer tribulation during the Christian Era, but we are not destined unto a final wrath, but unto eternal salvation.2 The wicked are destined unto final wrath, the judgment of the Great White Throne, and the second death.
Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The tribulation of the saints began during John's time. But is that the time of great tribulation?
Mat 24:15-21 When therefore ye shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever readeth, let him understand,) Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains: Let him who is on the house-top not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe to them that are with child, and to them that nurse infants in those days! But pray ye that your flight may not be in the winter, neither on the sabbath: For then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
So while the early church suffered persecution and tribulation, we can see that after the AOD (abomination of desolation) is standing there will be even greater tribulation. Indeed tribulation has increased since the the AOD (abomination of desolation), the DOR (dome of the rock) was placed in the court given to the Gentiles tribulation. Look at the events going on in the world today and we can see that persecution of Christians and Jews has become more widespread. The Jews were almost exterminated during WW2.Christianity was outlawed in Communist and islamic countries. Even here in the United States, a nation that stood against religous persecution, our government is now taking a stand against Christianity using separation of church and state to justify their actions while out of fear of being politically incorrect allowing the islamic agenda of wiping out the people of the book to be promoted.
John identified antichrist for us back in the first centruy when he wrote the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist cometh, even now are there many antichrists; by which we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not from God. And this is that spirit of antichrist, of which ye have heard that it should come; and even now already it is in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver, and an antichrist.
Antichrist is a spirit that inhabits all who deny Christ/God making all of those who deny Christ/God antichrists. Not one of those verses The only 4 that speak of antichrist or antichrists) support your view
What book chapter and verse says that a temple will be rebuilt or that sacrifices will be reinstituted? Wasn’t the crucifixion of Christ the ultimate sacrifice? Man made buildings are not the temple of God (Acts7:48, Acts17:24, 1Cor3:16-17, 2Cor6:16, Eph2:19-21)
I understand that according to the commonly taught futurist doctrine (be it pre, mid or post trib) they have not been fulfilled, unfortunately those views are in error. Mark7:13 warns us to be careful about following traditionally taught doctrines as they may make the word of God of none effect. Have those who have bought into these doctrines done as 2Tim2:15 or1Th5:21 instructs?
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved to God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
We won’t learn the truth by studying the doctrines of men but instead by studying God’s word.
Tribulation is for the believer, wrath is for the nonbeliever. The Greek word for tribulation is thlipsis, also translated affliction and trouble. Thlipsis is used 37 times in the New Testament, it almost always refers to the suffering of the saints.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have [thlipsis] tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the
world.
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in [thlipsis] tribulation; continuing instant in prayer.
2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [thlipsis] tribulations that ye endure.
Generally speaking, the unsaved don't go through thlipsis; they are destined for orgy or thumos, God's wrath.1 Orgy and thumos are the two Greek words for wrath. So we saints will suffer tribulation during the Christian Era, but we are not destined unto a final wrath, but unto eternal salvation.2 The wicked are destined unto final wrath, the judgment of the Great White Throne, and the second death.
Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The tribulation of the saints began during John's time. But is that the time of great tribulation?
Mat 24:15-21 When therefore ye shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever readeth, let him understand,) Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains: Let him who is on the house-top not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe to them that are with child, and to them that nurse infants in those days! But pray ye that your flight may not be in the winter, neither on the sabbath: For then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
So while the early church suffered persecution and tribulation, we can see that after the AOD (abomination of desolation) is standing there will be even greater tribulation. Indeed tribulation has increased since the the AOD (abomination of desolation), the DOR (dome of the rock) was placed in the court given to the Gentiles tribulation. Look at the events going on in the world today and we can see that persecution of Christians and Jews has become more widespread. The Jews were almost exterminated during WW2.Christianity was outlawed in Communist and islamic countries. Even here in the United States, a nation that stood against religous persecution, our government is now taking a stand against Christianity using separation of church and state to justify their actions while out of fear of being politically incorrect allowing the islamic agenda of wiping out the people of the book to be promoted.
John identified antichrist for us back in the first centruy when he wrote the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist cometh, even now are there many antichrists; by which we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not from God. And this is that spirit of antichrist, of which ye have heard that it should come; and even now already it is in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver, and an antichrist.
Antichrist is a spirit that inhabits all who deny Christ/God making all of those who deny Christ/God antichrists. Not one of those verses The only 4 that speak of antichrist or antichrists) support your view
What book chapter and verse says that a temple will be rebuilt or that sacrifices will be reinstituted? Wasn’t the crucifixion of Christ the ultimate sacrifice? Man made buildings are not the temple of God (Acts7:48, Acts17:24, 1Cor3:16-17, 2Cor6:16, Eph2:19-21)
I understand that according to the commonly taught futurist doctrine (be it pre, mid or post trib) they have not been fulfilled, unfortunately those views are in error. Mark7:13 warns us to be careful about following traditionally taught doctrines as they may make the word of God of none effect. Have those who have bought into these doctrines done as 2Tim2:15 or1Th5:21 instructs?
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved to God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
We won’t learn the truth by studying the doctrines of men but instead by studying God’s word.
D
While I agree that we are taken to be with the Lord at the last trump, I can not agree that the great tribulation occurs after the last trump.
Rev 10:6-7 And swore by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that are in it, and the earth, and the things that are in it, and the sea, and the things which are in it, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
How can the great tribulation occur after time is no longer? How can the great tribulation occur after “the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets”?
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he will reign for ever and ever.
The 7th angel sounds, and the Lord reigns forever. Right then, forever! After that trumpet blows, there won't be time for a tribulation, or for a 1000-year millennium. We will be going straight into the eternal Kingdom of God when that last trumpet sounds. Despite differing doctrines, that is the chronological picture as declared in the Bible.
Mat 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Has the generation of people that saw Israel become a nation in 1948 or the Jews gain control of Jerusalem in 1967 passed? No, they haven’t, many from those generations are still alive. We can’t say that it must occur within a 40 year time frame because like it or not some people die young and others live to a ripe old age. There are still many people alive that saw those events. I am not sure whether 1948 when Israel became a nation or 1967 when the Jews regained control of Jerusalem is the beginning of that generation, but either way it would be impossible to say that generation has passed. As long is there is even one person alive that saw the event (be it 1948 when Israel became a nation or 1967 when the Jews took Jerusalem) that begins that generation we can not say that generation has passed,
Considering that a person 116 years old just recently passed away ( June12,2013 <click) , regardless of whether that generation began in 1948 or 1967 if even one person from that generation lives to that ripe old age (like the one who died at the age of 116) it could still be many years before that generation passes.
Do we get fruit at the beginning of the growing season when buds first start appearing or at the end of the growing season when it is harvest time?
Rev 10:6-7 And swore by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that are in it, and the earth, and the things that are in it, and the sea, and the things which are in it, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
How can the great tribulation occur after time is no longer? How can the great tribulation occur after “the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets”?
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he will reign for ever and ever.
The 7th angel sounds, and the Lord reigns forever. Right then, forever! After that trumpet blows, there won't be time for a tribulation, or for a 1000-year millennium. We will be going straight into the eternal Kingdom of God when that last trumpet sounds. Despite differing doctrines, that is the chronological picture as declared in the Bible.
Mat 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Has the generation of people that saw Israel become a nation in 1948 or the Jews gain control of Jerusalem in 1967 passed? No, they haven’t, many from those generations are still alive. We can’t say that it must occur within a 40 year time frame because like it or not some people die young and others live to a ripe old age. There are still many people alive that saw those events. I am not sure whether 1948 when Israel became a nation or 1967 when the Jews regained control of Jerusalem is the beginning of that generation, but either way it would be impossible to say that generation has passed. As long is there is even one person alive that saw the event (be it 1948 when Israel became a nation or 1967 when the Jews took Jerusalem) that begins that generation we can not say that generation has passed,
Considering that a person 116 years old just recently passed away ( June12,2013 <click) , regardless of whether that generation began in 1948 or 1967 if even one person from that generation lives to that ripe old age (like the one who died at the age of 116) it could still be many years before that generation passes.
Do we get fruit at the beginning of the growing season when buds first start appearing or at the end of the growing season when it is harvest time?
The prophecy in the olivet discourse is like so many others that the Father gives.
- Dual fulfillment.
- - The religious leaders of Jesus' day made the same mistake - "He can't be the Messiah because he hasn't freed us from our captors"....."he can't be Christ because he hasn't set up his earthly kingdom like all of the prophecies said"
- - - "Therefore, let's kill him."
Jesus-(in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwelled bodily), said: "My words are Spirit and they are truth, the flesh prophets nothing." - John 6:63
- Dual fulfillment.
- - The religious leaders of Jesus' day made the same mistake - "He can't be the Messiah because he hasn't freed us from our captors"....."he can't be Christ because he hasn't set up his earthly kingdom like all of the prophecies said"
- - - "Therefore, let's kill him."
Jesus-(in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwelled bodily), said: "My words are Spirit and they are truth, the flesh prophets nothing." - John 6:63
Dear Friend,
All of this is pure conjecture and is NOT of the Word. This is all man's interpretation or wishful thinking. Something as BIG as the Rapture of untold millions of Christians would be made a little bit clearer, don't you think? "Come up hither" applied only to John and he went up in spirit back in the AD 90s. The church certainly didn't go then and won't go before the first 7 trumpets.
I will rely on the clear Word of God who specifically tells us in repeated passages when the Lord will come and when the gathering of the saints to Him will be. The passages I quoted are irrefutable and carry much more weight than the conjuring of a cultist man from 1820. Sorry if I offend but I was taught the pre-trib rapture lie and believed it for most of my life. Then I actually read and studied the Word.
The Bible teaches us Not to add or subtract from His Word. I am always amazed at how the clear reading of the Word can be ignored by so many Christians to support a view that is more comfortable to them. Jesus teaches us that we will be hated by all nations. We will be persecuted for His name. We will endure Tribulation and we are to take up our cross and follow Him. Nowhere does the Bible teach we will be given a pass. What makes us think we should escape all the evil and persecution of the Tribulation when the early church didn't and His own disciples didn't?
But aside from all that, the timing of the Lord's coming and His gathering is spelled out in plain language in the passages I cited and you can't use conjecture to trump the Plain Word of the Lord. With respect and love dear brother.
All of this is pure conjecture and is NOT of the Word. This is all man's interpretation or wishful thinking. Something as BIG as the Rapture of untold millions of Christians would be made a little bit clearer, don't you think? "Come up hither" applied only to John and he went up in spirit back in the AD 90s. The church certainly didn't go then and won't go before the first 7 trumpets.
I will rely on the clear Word of God who specifically tells us in repeated passages when the Lord will come and when the gathering of the saints to Him will be. The passages I quoted are irrefutable and carry much more weight than the conjuring of a cultist man from 1820. Sorry if I offend but I was taught the pre-trib rapture lie and believed it for most of my life. Then I actually read and studied the Word.
The Bible teaches us Not to add or subtract from His Word. I am always amazed at how the clear reading of the Word can be ignored by so many Christians to support a view that is more comfortable to them. Jesus teaches us that we will be hated by all nations. We will be persecuted for His name. We will endure Tribulation and we are to take up our cross and follow Him. Nowhere does the Bible teach we will be given a pass. What makes us think we should escape all the evil and persecution of the Tribulation when the early church didn't and His own disciples didn't?
But aside from all that, the timing of the Lord's coming and His gathering is spelled out in plain language in the passages I cited and you can't use conjecture to trump the Plain Word of the Lord. With respect and love dear brother.