Submit and Obey

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Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#41
About husband/wife relationship, "rule over thee", etc is mentioned in Genesis and is stated next to painful childbearing. It is fair to say that husband ruling over wife, being one of the first words spoken by God after Adam and Eve disobeyed, and given the context of the text, that husband ruling over the wife is intended as punishment. So, this is always going to be stuggle for wives (but obviously not if the husband is very agreeable) and consequently for hubands in their relationships. If husbands realize that women's inclination to be disagreeable is actually primarily a result of the Fall, I think they will be more understanding and efficient in dealing with their wives.
That's very good insight. And it wouldn't hurt if men were to actually love their wives as Christ loves His church.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
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#42
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:
for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account,
that they may do it with joy, and not with grief:
for that is unprofitable for you.



What do you have to say to this,
that is written in the book of Hebrews
concerning you? If I had rule over you
would you obey me and submit yourselves to it?
Or would you rebel and not live by this written in the book of Hebrews
as you are commanded by it?
There was something that didn't sit right with what you wrote.

And now I see what it is. You're writing as if a Christian can't choose their leaders. But we can!

You write "If I had rule over you would you obey me and submit yourselves to it?...."

But Christians are always given the choice as to who they want leading them.

I would not choose you as you sound very demanding to be obeyed and not even bothering to know anyone here to care about our needs (as a good leader should) other than to know if we'll bow down blindly to authority.

I'd go to another church where the pastor is more like the Lord Jesus and then I'd be willing to submit to his authority.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
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#44
I don't think this quite lives up to the standard set for both you and him in the scripture
in Hebrews concerning you and him in your place to God.
No, I am certain of it. I know there is a whole lot more
that the 2 of you would be involved with each other's lives
if you and him lived by it.

So what's the message you're here to bring. Instead of annoying people with questions and being a jerk when they answer, just what's the message and the people you're affiliated with. You've been obnoxious enough to ask people direct questions and demand an answer. So let's flip the conversation and see if you are here to discuss or just troll people with obnoxious views that you obscure with half answers.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,678
1,984
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#45
Do you have a pastor that rules over you and is accountable for you to the Lord? Yes or no?
If you do not answer with a yes I will assume it is a NO.

If not then why not?
Marital Status - not married

Spiritual Status-unsure

When saved - Endure 2TheEnd
 
Mar 17, 2023
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#49
So what's the message you're here to bring. Instead of annoying people with questions and being a jerk when they answer, just what's the message and the people you're affiliated with. You've been obnoxious enough to ask people direct questions and demand an answer. So let's flip the conversation and see if you are here to discuss or just troll people with obnoxious views that you obscure with half answers.
I have to strongly disagree with you as to your opinion of my character.
I am more than certain that the living God will too.
As for what is my message? At this present point in time,
I do not have one, This is a discussion thread, to discuss the topic
of the thread. Whatever anyone receives from it or rejects of it,
from all our discussions of it, is not in any way in my control.
 

HopeinHim98

Well-known member
Mar 16, 2023
529
416
63
#53
As you have stated, I have already begin, everything I have posted, has no error within any of it.
Therefore it has to be the truth.
It seems you are automatically assuming no Christian adheres to this particular verse. Is that what you're assuming?
 
Mar 17, 2023
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#54
It seems you are automatically assuming no Christian adheres to this particular verse. Is that what you're assuming?
I am assuming that you are what you seem to be, and be that as it may...


Do you believe that if a member of the congregation, who
refuses to obey and submit themselves to the authority
of the pastor, that God has placed to rule over them, has the power and authority
from God, to do this to them in return for their disobedience?

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:20
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan,
that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Yes or no?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#55
I am assuming that you are what you seem to be, and be that as it may...


Do you believe that if a member of the congregation, who
refuses to obey and submit themselves to the authority
of the pastor, that God has placed to rule over them, has the power and authority
from God, to do this to them in return for their disobedience?

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:20
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan,
that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Yes or no?
Was that Paul speaking of himself? Was this part of his Apostolic authority?
 

HopeinHim98

Well-known member
Mar 16, 2023
529
416
63
#57
I am assuming that you are what you seem to be, and be that as it may...


Do you believe that if a member of the congregation, who
refuses to obey and submit themselves to the authority
of the pastor, that God has placed to rule over them, has the power and authority
from God, to do this to them in return for their disobedience?

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:20
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan,
that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Yes or no?
I believe both of those situations (the former being fornication and the latter I don't know the specifics but obviously their consciences were shipwrecked and they were blasphemous) were dealing with sin. And yes, the authority in our lives have the right to bring truth to our attention and sometimes it may lead to church discipline. But just because we don't obey a person who claims to be in authority doesn't merit the "delivering to Satan". It has to be based on Truth, not a man's notion.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
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#59
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:
for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account,
that they may do it with joy, and not with grief:
for that is unprofitable for you.



What do you have to say to this,
that is written in the book of Hebrews
concerning you? If I had rule over you
would you obey me and submit yourselves to it?
Or would you rebel and not live by this written in the book of Hebrews
as you are commanded by it?

This passage has to be taken in context, and taken in proper tension and balance with the rest of scripture.

A good pastor would not beat his congregation with this verse in order to control them, or exaggerate his authority.
He would first do a careful analysis of the passage, and then he would place it into very careful balance with the rest of scripture.
A good pastor would be especially careful with a passage that has been often abused.

The original audience for this book was Jewish Christians, people who would have understood the theology and wisdom books of the Old Testament. So this book was probably written with the presumption that the readers would already have the theological context with which to understand it. Modern readers do not necessarily come pre-equiped with this theological understanding.
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