Talking to the dead.

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TheLearner

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#81
Philippians 1:19-26 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will result in my deliverance. 20 It is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be put to shame in any way, but that by my speaking with all boldness, Christ will be exalted now as always in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, living is Christ and dying is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labour for me; and I do not know which I prefer. 23 I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; 24 but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you. 25 Since I am convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with all of you for your progress and joy in faith, 26 so that I may share abundantly in your boasting in Christ Jesus when I come to you again.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
13 And may he so strengthen your hearts in holiness that you may be blameless before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

I have always been troubled by Moses talking to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Since, we are not to talk with the dead.

We know that Satan can appear as an angel of light, thus it is likely demons can appear as people too.
 

Didymous

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Feb 22, 2018
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#82
Nah, for the most part, punishments, up to and including the death penalty, have not been shown to be particularly effective as deterrents to crime (although there are a variety of conflicting results out there, depending on what factors are manipulated). Most people behave morally because it is the right thing to do, rather than out of fear of the consequences.

When you see a sign that says, "Please do not touch the artwork," do you instinctively think, "Or what??" or do you just not touch the artwork?

And by the way, I do have a Master's degree in Psychology.

This explains much.
 

Deade

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#83
Nah, for the most part, punishments, up to and including the death penalty, have not been shown to be particularly effective as deterrents to crime (although there are a variety of conflicting results out there, depending on what factors are manipulated). Most people behave morally because it is the right thing to do, rather than out of fear of the consequences.

When you see a sign that says, "Please do not touch the artwork," do you instinctively think, "Or what??" or do you just not touch the artwork?

And by the way, I do have a Master's degree in Psychology.
One thing we know for sure, the death penalty is a deterrent for those put to death. If they are dead, they can't re-offend!

flashing-yeah-smiley-emoticon.gif
 

TheLearner

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#84
Yea why would you want to talk to the dead when you can talk to the living? If you call the deads phone they not going to pick up. You could be waiting a while....

I mean who would be silly enough to do that thinking the dead will answer?!
One of the Ball Brothers, of the canning jar family, had a great fear of being entombed alive. Anyway, he had a telephone installed in his so he could call out if this happened to him.


As the story goes, he dies…this story is to have happened in the late 1930’s. A few days later, some of his wife’s family got worried because they could only get a busy signal on her phone. Upon entering her home, they found her dead, a look of fright frozen on her face, clutching the phone. When they went to entomb her after the funeral a couple of days later, you can guess what they found…yep, the phone was off the hook INSIDE the crypt.

MARY BAKER EDDY'S FUNERAL

There were many members of the Christian Science fnith at Mt. Auburn cemetery, Thursday, from this city nnd elsewhere, who had hoped to attend the funeral services, but under orders of the trustees and nt the request of the church authorities admittance was refused to any and all. Two watchmen were stationed behind the closed gates nt the main entrance, politely but firmly refusing admittance. Aiany expressions of disappointment were heard from those present, members of the faith who had never seen thejr beloved leader, and who felt that at least they might be allowed to attend the last rites. ' The funeral cortege reached the cemetery shortly after 1 o'clock, the gates being opened for their entry and closed immediately afterward. The carriages slowly wended their way along I lie path toward the Coolidge avenue side of the cemetery to the hollow beside Haloyon pond, where the receiving tomb is located. Judge Clifford Smith, first reader of the Mother church in Boston, rend brief passages from the I'salms. The casket wns placed in a crypt within the tomb, nnd the member* of the funeral party repaired to their carriages and left the cemetery. - The gates were opened to the public after the funeral services were over, and many journeyed through the snow to the tomb, gazing in nwe and silence for some time. The presence of two guards, stationed! within the receiving tomb, watching over the body was a cause of much comment, although the cemetery authorities said that there was nothing unusual in the f(ict. They will be stationed there until further orders from the Christian Science church leaders direct otherwise. Telephone wires running to the tomb brought out the fact that a telephone had been installed there the day of the funeral, to assist the guards in the event of anything out of the ordinary happening. It is likewise supposed thnt it will assist in having the guards on ditty report nt stated periods.https://cambridge.dlconsulting.com/...0-01.2.124&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN-------

After Eddy's death in 1910, the Church of Christ, Scientist, supposedly installed a phone in Eddy’s tomb in case of her resurrection. Unsurprisingly, this rumor proves false. The true story is more pragmatic. At Mount Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge, Massachusetts, her casket resided in the receiving tomb while her grave was prepared. A guard stood there to prevent vandalism, and the phone was there for contacting the guard. All that aside, the image of Eddy’s telephone is a reminder of the hopeful nature of her ministry. Maybe Eddy would reappear. Maybe she wouldn’t. The phone would be there waiting either way. https://www.christiancentury.org/blogs/archive/2014-04/raising-dead
 

TheLearner

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#85
No. Necromancy is anything that has to do with the dead. Your talking about conjuring.
Going through boundaries to speak to a dead person. Been there, done that. Its dangerous territory and God says no
NECROMANCY:





By: Joseph Jacobs, Ludwig Blau
Table of Contents
Divination by aid of the dead is said to have been common among the Persians (Strabo, xvi. 2, 39, νεκυονάντεις), and at a later time among the Greeks and Romans as well (see passages in Winer, "B. R." ii. 26). The Israelites possibly borrowed the art from the Persians, and practised it extensively, so that the Bible repeatedly forbids it (Lev. xix. 31; xx. 6, 27; Deut. xviii. 11; I Sam. xxviii.; Isa. viii. 19). There were three classes of necromancers, "ob," "yidde'oni," and "doresh el ha-metim" (questioner of the dead), the first two usually being mentioned together. While the general meaning of "ob" and "yidde'oni" is clear, their etymology and exact connotation have not yet been determined. "Ob" is said to denote the soothsaying spirit (in this sense as early as Josephus, "Ant." vi. 4, § 2) or the ghost of the dead (Baudissin, "Studien," pp. 141 et seq.; Davies, "Magic, Divination," etc., pp. 86 et seq.). The Septuagint generally translates the word by ἐγγαστρίμυθος = "ventriloquist," deriving this meaning from the tone of voice adopted by the necromancer. Jewish tradition says: "Ob is the python, who speaks from his armpits; yidde'oni is he who speaks with his mouth" (Sanh. vii. 7; Sifra, Lev. xx. 27). According to the Talmud (l.c. 65b), the yidde'oni used a bone of the animal called "yaddua'" in his mouth, which is made to speak by magic. The "possessor of the ob" stooped while speaking, to make it appear as if the spirit spoke from his joints and arms (ib.). Two objects are mentioned by means of which the necromancer worked, one being a human skull (but see also Levy, "Neuhebr. Wörterb." i. 537b. s.v.
).
Paraphernalia. Although the Bible does not mention the apparatus used in necromancy, that some sort of paraphernalia was employed is clear from the mention of teraphim, etc. (II Kings xxiii. 24), and also from the expressions which designate the employment of the oracle (ib. xxi. 6; II Chron. xxxiii. 6; Lev. xx. 27 et passim). The Bible indicates still more clearly the manner of appearance and speech. Samuel was manifested to the witch of Endor as an old man covered with a mantle, so that she immediately recognized him as a man of God. Theshade invoked evidently assumed the same shape that he had had in life. The form, however, was visible only to the necromancer, while the questioner heard merely the voice (I Sam. xxviii. 13, 14). The latter sounded as if it came out of the earth, the speech of these necromancers being therefore called whispering and muttering (Isa. viii. 19, xxix. 4). The questioner prepared himself by fasting to be in a proper spiritual condition to receive the ghostly visitant (ib. verse 20; Sanh. 65b).
The fact that necromancy was classed with idolatry and all kinds of magic shows its connection therewith, and, probably, its foreign origin (Deut. xviii. 10, 11; II Kings xxi. 6, xxiii. 24; Isa. xix. 3 et passim). Necromancy, like idolatry and magic in general, was practised chiefly by women (I Sam. xxviii. 7). Saul, who applied in his distress to a female necromancer, had previously driven from the country all those who practised divination by aid of the dead (ib. 9). But Manasseh favored them as well as all other idolaters (II Kings xxi. 6); his elder contemporary, the prophet Isaiah, has in fact given the most explicit references to necromancers (Isa. viii. 19, xix. 3, xxix. 4). Josiah, who took for his guide the newly discovered book of the Law, destroyed them (II Kings xxiii. 24).
In Talmudic Times.
Nevertheless, even in post-Biblical times the necromancers persisted in practising their art, in spite of all measures directed against them, and notwithstanding frequent interdicts in the Torah. The principal passage of the Talmud referring to them has been given above. The teachers of the Talmud call magicians "those that dig up the dead" (B. B. 58a et passim) and "those who predict by means of bones of the dead." A Babylonian scholar declared the art and speech of osteomanty to be deceit and falsehood (Ber. 59a). In general, however, the veracity of the spirit was not doubted, since even the ghost of Samuel had been evoked, according to I Sam. xxviii. (see Shab. 152b). It was regarded as a rule that if the necromancer saw the ghost which he evoked, the questioner heard the voice; but if the latter saw the apparition, the necromancer heard the voice. To hear and to see at the same time was impossible (Sanh. 65; comp. Josephus, l.c.). When Onḳelos bar Kalonikos, nephew of the emperor Titus, was thinking of embracing Judaism, he evoked the spirits of Titus, Balaam, and Jesus in succession, and asked them for advice. The first two dissuaded him, while Jesus counseled him to carry out his intention (Giṭ. 56b-57b). Rab (d. 247), the foremost teacher of Babylon, "performed some ceremony in the cemetery, and ascertained that 99 out of 100 persons die from the evil eye and that only one dies a natural death" (B. M. 107b, above). A later Babylonian teacher says that the necromancer burned incense to the demon, and thus questioned him (Karet 3b).
A more innocent mode of necromancy was listening secretly to the conversation of the dead (Ber. l.c.). Some persons fasted and spent the night in a cemetery, in order that the "spirit of uncleanness" might visit them and enable them to find out the future or other hidden matters (Sanh. 65b; Ḥag. 3b), since the dead were supposed to dwell in an unclean place. This belief may be implied in Isa. lxv. 4 (comp. Acts xvi. 16). This kind of necromancy is perhaps meant in the expression "a consulter with familiar spirits" (Deut. xviii. 11). According to Jewish tradition, necromancy will be punished by God and not by man (Sanh. l.c. et passim).http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11411-necromancy
 

TheLearner

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#86
asking the Lord to say goodby to your wife of 50 years is necromancy? are you sure on that one? where can we confirm this one in scripture?
Hi Jay Bird 69, if you are addressing your request to God himself, no that is not necromancy. It is communication from the dead to us that is forbidden. The text about under the sun, was written in the OT. As you know Revelation is progressive. In the text below we learn it is possible that the dead in heaven can see us when God permits it. We also, know that when others die, they can converse with those up there. And, that angels visit heaven daily from the book of Job. So, it is possible that your guardian angel can make a side trip to visit a loved one. This is just a theory. The text I can think of is below.

Hebrews 12:1-12 New International Version (NIV)

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
 
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#88
Samuel, supposedly, was called by the witch of En Dor, not Saul. As to what actually happened, no one can know for sure. What is clear, however, is that Saul consulting a witch was not a good thing, and not of God. Even if Samuel appeared, that doesn't justify trying to speak to our dead today. Also, Saul used a person forbidden by God's law to make the conversation possible. So I guess you could use a medium to talk to your dead today, but scripture doesn't support being able to talk to the dead without some kind of ungodly intercessor. Bottom line: Saul is a poor example to use to try and justify speaking to your dead loved ones.
God had completely cut off all ways of communing with Saul . What he did experience was a not of God. God sent a strong delusion so that he could believe the lie..

Great principles found there that help aid other portions that speak of necromancy .(seeking the dead disembodied spirits for the living. ) the foundation of Catholicism. The legion 3500 (patron saints) as workers with familiar spirits and rising approval by the Pope each one having a teraphim available as a idol image to needed put a face of the unseen spirit. (available on line..) You could say I worker for any need.

And when they shall say unto you, Seek (necromancy) unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them Isaiah 8:19-20

Above the word seek (necromancy, darash ) is used twice in the same verse. One to represent seeking after our father in heaven the one true manner not seen. and the other the sky is the limit. many. This is when when jesus cast out the lying spirts with the gospel . Jesus asked him his name(singular) he said legion many.

Mark 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

That principle of many and therefore a idol image a statue or photograph (teraphim) is need to pick out one in particular. It can be seen with Saul and the witch .

Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul .And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods (legion many) ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 1 samauel 28:11-14

Rachel hid her teraphims from her father.
 
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#89
Hi Jay Bird 69, if you are addressing your request to God himself, no that is not necromancy. It is communication from the dead to us that is forbidden. The text about under the sun, was written in the OT. As you know Revelation is progressive. In the text below we learn it is possible that the dead in heaven can see us when God permits it. We also, know that when others die, they can converse with those up there. And, that angels visit heaven daily from the book of Job. So, it is possible that your guardian angel can make a side trip to visit a loved one. This is just a theory. The text I can think of is below.

Hebrews 12:1-12 New International Version (NIV)

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Looking at the Hebrews 12 verse in that way is simply giving your approval of necromancy.It does not say we can commune with the witnesses. They are just examples of those God moved by faith. we pray one manner. Our father in heaven .Not our brothers, sisters ,mother and fathers, aunts and uncles. .That's another manner.

Not this manner as in one. Our father in heaven.He knows what we need before we ask Him .Why ask a legion of strangers ?

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Not Hallowing the dead.
 

TheLearner

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#90
Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”

“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”

11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.

21 When the woman came to Saul and saw that he was greatly shaken, she said, “Look, your servant has obeyed you. I took my life in my hands and did what you told me to do. 22 Now please listen to your servant and let me give you some food so you may eat and have the strength to go on your way.”

23 He refused and said, “I will not eat.”

But his men joined the woman in urging him, and he listened to them. He got up from the ground and sat on the couch.

24 The woman had a fattened calf at the house, which she butchered at once. She took some flour, kneaded it and baked bread without yeast. 25 Then she set it before Saul and his men, and they ate. That same night they got up and left.
 
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#91
Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”

“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”

11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.

21 When the woman came to Saul and saw that he was greatly shaken, she said, “Look, your servant has obeyed you. I took my life in my hands and did what you told me to do. 22 Now please listen to your servant and let me give you some food so you may eat and have the strength to go on your way.”

23 He refused and said, “I will not eat.”

But his men joined the woman in urging him, and he listened to them. He got up from the ground and sat on the couch.

24 The woman had a fattened calf at the house, which she butchered at once. She took some flour, kneaded it and baked bread without yeast. 25 Then she set it before Saul and his men, and they ate. That same night they got up and left.
And God sent a strong delusion so that they could beleive the lie.
 

TheLearner

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#92
When God sends a lying spirit he says so.

The plan meaning of the text is God allowed the prophet to pronounce judgement..
 

TheLearner

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#94
Matthew 17 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
The Transfiguration
17 Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and his brother John and led them up a high mountain, by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white. 3 Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus, ‘Lord, it is good for us to be here; if you wish, I[a] will make three dwellings here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.’ 5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, ‘This is my Son, the Beloved;[c] with him I am well pleased; listen to him!’ 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell to the ground and were overcome by fear. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, ‘Get up and do not be afraid.’ 8 And when they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus himself alone.

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus ordered them, ‘Tell no one about the vision until after the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.’ 10 And the disciples asked him, ‘Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ 11 He replied, ‘Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man is about to suffer at their hands.’ 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them about John the Baptist.

Luke 9:28-36 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
The Transfiguration
28 Now about eight days after these sayings Jesus[a] took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And while he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became dazzling white. 30 Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. 31 They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and his companions were weighed down with sleep; but since they had stayed awake,[b] they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. 33 Just as they were leaving him, Peter said to Jesus, ‘Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings,[c] one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah’—not knowing what he said. 34 While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were terrified as they entered the cloud. 35 Then from the cloud came a voice that said, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen;[d] listen to him!’ 36 When the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and in those days told no one any of the things they had seen.

Mark 9 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
9 1 And he said to them, ‘Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with[a] power.’

The Transfiguration
2 Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, 3 and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no one on earth could bleach them. 4 And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus. 5 Then Peter said to Jesus, ‘Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings,[c] one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.’ 6 He did not know what to say, for they were terrified. 7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, ‘This is my Son, the Beloved;[d] listen to him!’ 8 Suddenly when they looked around, they saw no one with them any more, but only Jesus.

The texts do not say it was a vision, but I see why you think that. But, even if it was a vision Jesus still had contact with the dead in that vision which is forbidden.

Can you think of any other passages in Scripture where the dead appeared in a vision?

If you claim the dead can appear in a vision, then someone praying to God to say bye to someone who has died, then God can if he chooses to allow that person speak with them in a vision, right???

Is the dead appearing in a vision contrary to scriptures?
 

Deade

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#95
The texts do not say it was a vision, but I see why you think that. But, even if it was a vision Jesus still had contact with the dead in that vision which is forbidden. Can you think of any other passages in Scripture where the dead appeared in a vision?
Matt. 17:9 "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

If you claim the dead can appear in a vision, then someone praying to God to say bye to someone who has died, then God can if he chooses to allow that person speak with them in a vision, right???

Is the dead appearing in a vision contrary to scriptures?
Seeing the dead in a vision is not conjuring up dead spirits. You will have to reserve your goodbyes until the resurrection as the dead are sleeping. :cool:
 

AxeElf

Active member
Mar 5, 2019
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#96
One thing we know for sure, the death penalty is a deterrent for those put to death. If they are dead, they can't re-offend!
If the death penalty was a deterrent, they wouldn't be on death row in the first place.
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
6,877
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#98
NECROMANCY:





By: Joseph Jacobs, Ludwig Blau
Table of Contents
Divination by aid of the dead is said to have been common among the Persians (Strabo, xvi. 2, 39, νεκυονάντεις), and at a later time among the Greeks and Romans as well (see passages in Winer, "B. R." ii. 26). The Israelites possibly borrowed the art from the Persians, and practised it extensively, so that the Bible repeatedly forbids it (Lev. xix. 31; xx. 6, 27; Deut. xviii. 11; I Sam. xxviii.; Isa. viii. 19). There were three classes of necromancers, "ob," "yidde'oni," and "doresh el ha-metim" (questioner of the dead), the first two usually being mentioned together. While the general meaning of "ob" and "yidde'oni" is clear, their etymology and exact connotation have not yet been determined. "Ob" is said to denote the soothsaying spirit (in this sense as early as Josephus, "Ant." vi. 4, § 2) or the ghost of the dead (Baudissin, "Studien," pp. 141 et seq.; Davies, "Magic, Divination," etc., pp. 86 et seq.). The Septuagint generally translates the word by ἐγγαστρίμυθος = "ventriloquist," deriving this meaning from the tone of voice adopted by the necromancer. Jewish tradition says: "Ob is the python, who speaks from his armpits; yidde'oni is he who speaks with his mouth" (Sanh. vii. 7; Sifra, Lev. xx. 27). According to the Talmud (l.c. 65b), the yidde'oni used a bone of the animal called "yaddua'" in his mouth, which is made to speak by magic. The "possessor of the ob" stooped while speaking, to make it appear as if the spirit spoke from his joints and arms (ib.). Two objects are mentioned by means of which the necromancer worked, one being a human skull (but see also Levy, "Neuhebr. Wörterb." i. 537b. s.v.
).
Paraphernalia. Although the Bible does not mention the apparatus used in necromancy, that some sort of paraphernalia was employed is clear from the mention of teraphim, etc. (II Kings xxiii. 24), and also from the expressions which designate the employment of the oracle (ib. xxi. 6; II Chron. xxxiii. 6; Lev. xx. 27 et passim). The Bible indicates still more clearly the manner of appearance and speech. Samuel was manifested to the witch of Endor as an old man covered with a mantle, so that she immediately recognized him as a man of God. Theshade invoked evidently assumed the same shape that he had had in life. The form, however, was visible only to the necromancer, while the questioner heard merely the voice (I Sam. xxviii. 13, 14). The latter sounded as if it came out of the earth, the speech of these necromancers being therefore called whispering and muttering (Isa. viii. 19, xxix. 4). The questioner prepared himself by fasting to be in a proper spiritual condition to receive the ghostly visitant (ib. verse 20; Sanh. 65b).
The fact that necromancy was classed with idolatry and all kinds of magic shows its connection therewith, and, probably, its foreign origin (Deut. xviii. 10, 11; II Kings xxi. 6, xxiii. 24; Isa. xix. 3 et passim). Necromancy, like idolatry and magic in general, was practised chiefly by women (I Sam. xxviii. 7). Saul, who applied in his distress to a female necromancer, had previously driven from the country all those who practised divination by aid of the dead (ib. 9). But Manasseh favored them as well as all other idolaters (II Kings xxi. 6); his elder contemporary, the prophet Isaiah, has in fact given the most explicit references to necromancers (Isa. viii. 19, xix. 3, xxix. 4). Josiah, who took for his guide the newly discovered book of the Law, destroyed them (II Kings xxiii. 24).
In Talmudic Times.
Nevertheless, even in post-Biblical times the necromancers persisted in practising their art, in spite of all measures directed against them, and notwithstanding frequent interdicts in the Torah. The principal passage of the Talmud referring to them has been given above. The teachers of the Talmud call magicians "those that dig up the dead" (B. B. 58a et passim) and "those who predict by means of bones of the dead." A Babylonian scholar declared the art and speech of osteomanty to be deceit and falsehood (Ber. 59a). In general, however, the veracity of the spirit was not doubted, since even the ghost of Samuel had been evoked, according to I Sam. xxviii. (see Shab. 152b). It was regarded as a rule that if the necromancer saw the ghost which he evoked, the questioner heard the voice; but if the latter saw the apparition, the necromancer heard the voice. To hear and to see at the same time was impossible (Sanh. 65; comp. Josephus, l.c.). When Onḳelos bar Kalonikos, nephew of the emperor Titus, was thinking of embracing Judaism, he evoked the spirits of Titus, Balaam, and Jesus in succession, and asked them for advice. The first two dissuaded him, while Jesus counseled him to carry out his intention (Giṭ. 56b-57b). Rab (d. 247), the foremost teacher of Babylon, "performed some ceremony in the cemetery, and ascertained that 99 out of 100 persons die from the evil eye and that only one dies a natural death" (B. M. 107b, above). A later Babylonian teacher says that the necromancer burned incense to the demon, and thus questioned him (Karet 3b).
A more innocent mode of necromancy was listening secretly to the conversation of the dead (Ber. l.c.). Some persons fasted and spent the night in a cemetery, in order that the "spirit of uncleanness" might visit them and enable them to find out the future or other hidden matters (Sanh. 65b; Ḥag. 3b), since the dead were supposed to dwell in an unclean place. This belief may be implied in Isa. lxv. 4 (comp. Acts xvi. 16). This kind of necromancy is perhaps meant in the expression "a consulter with familiar spirits" (Deut. xviii. 11). According to Jewish tradition, necromancy will be punished by God and not by man (Sanh. l.c. et passim).http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11411-necromancy
U dont have to tell me anything sbout the occult..i know