The 144,000 named in Revelation

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Dec 12, 2013
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No. The 144,000 chosen will be a mix of a remnant from the sons of Jacob to the believers sealed with the anointing at the second coming of the Messiah, which will be a mixture of Jews and Gentiles, which will become the new Israel, glorified, immortal, 144,000 chosen.
Ummmmmmmmm, I suggest you actually read the bible........12000 from each tribe of ISRAEL does not equate to a Heinz 57 mixed breed bag of Jews and Gentiles!
 

povawiqe

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Nov 25, 2018
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Ummmmmmmmm, I suggest you actually read the bible........12000 from each tribe of ISRAEL does not equate to a Heinz 57 mixed breed bag of Jews and Gentiles!
That is because the the Gentiles who believe and are sealed would've actually physically descended from Abraham, whether knowingly or unknowingly, for the the house of Israel was dispersed into the nations through the Assyrian captivity, and likewise the house of Judah was also dispersed into the nations through the Babylonian captivity, and also in future exiles to those times, and in this way, the people of God were dispersed in the nations, hence,

James, a servant of God and of the Master Yeshuah Messiah, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings. (James 1:1)

Peter, an apostle of Yeshuah Messiah, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (1 Peter 1:1)

The Jews said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we will not find him? Does he intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks? (John 7:35)

He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Yeshuah would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. (John 11:51-52)

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. (John 10:16)

Yehovah builds up Jerusalem; he gathers the exiles of Israel. (Psalm 147:2)

He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. (Isaiah 11:12)

My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:10)

But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, Yehovah, are our Father… (Isaiah 63:16)

Which is how believers who are Gentiles will actually be counted among the tribes of Israel.
 
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That is because the the Gentiles who believe and are sealed would've actually physically descended from Abraham, whether knowingly or unknowingly, for the the house of Israel was dispersed into the nations through the Assyrian captivity, and likewise the house of Judah was also dispersed into the nations through the Babylonian captivity, and also in future exiles to those times, and in this way, the people of God were dispersed in the nations, hence,

James, a servant of God and of the Master Yeshuah Messiah, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings. (James 1:1)

Peter, an apostle of Yeshuah Messiah, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (1 Peter 1:1)

The Jews said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we will not find him? Does he intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks? (John 7:35)

He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Yeshuah would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. (John 11:51-52)

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. (John 10:16)

Yehovah builds up Jerusalem; he gathers the exiles of Israel. (Psalm 147:2)

He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. (Isaiah 11:12)

My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:10)

But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, Yehovah, are our Father… (Isaiah 63:16)

Which is how believers who are Gentiles will actually be counted among the tribes of Israel.
Wrong again......there are NO gentiles in this group regardless of how many times you try to force it!

One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
 

povawiqe

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Nov 25, 2018
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Wrong again......there are NO gentiles in this group regardless of how many times you try to force it!

One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
Even Paul asserts this very thing I am saying,

After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (Romans 11:24-26)

The Gentiles are grafted INTO ISRAEL, which is the cultivated olive tree. And in this way, in being grafted into Israel, are thus counted among the tribes of Israel. Even the son of the promise, who was Isaac, which is who the Gentiles represent, was a physical descendant of Abraham,

Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. (Galatians 4:28)

Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness and who seek Yehovah: Look to the rock from which you were cut and to the quarry from which you were hewn; look to Abraham, your father, and to Sarah, who gave you birth. When I called him he was only one man, and I blessed him and made him many. (Isaiah 51:1-2)
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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Jesus was born to be king.....Again I want to remind ALL of a few facts that get overlooked......these boys all under two were killed by Herod out of jealousy and spite in an attempt to KEEP ISRAEL'S KING from living......it states clearly that he killed all the boys in ALL ISRAEL under two based upon the saying and "IN the COASTS THEREOF"

NOTE......the prophecy fulfilled on that DAY about RACHAEL WEEPING for HER CHILDREN and HER CHILDREN ARE NOT is A BIG clue......why is it a clue.....

HEROD would have KNOWN that the KING would come from the LINEAGE of JUDAH and the LINE of DAVID....yet the PROPHECY deals with RACHAEL which did not bear the child which would be the lineage of JUDAH......SHE bore JOSEPH and BENJAMIN.........I cannot remember the exact verbiage, but remember reading a lone verse that attributes ALL of the children of JACOB unto RACHAEL because SHE was the one he loved.

Jesus as the LONE HIGH PRIEST after the order of Melchizedek offered HIMSELF without spot and or blemish and then offered the 144,000 as the firstfruits of the harvest. Again my view based upon ALL the facts when taken as a whole......the 11 characteristics found in Revelation 14, including the locations listed, to the use of the word ascending (concerning the angel that seals) and the prophecy of Rachael ALL fit the 144,000.........Concerning the angel that seals<-----NOTE this is UNIQUE and is not the HOLY SPIRIT sealing IN SALVATION

Why would an angel of the LORD ascend to SEAL this group when it is the Holy Spirit that SEALS believers?

I am telling all from over three decades of study that this whole deal with the 144,000 is a very unique anomaly in scripture and when all the facts are viewed without bias, preconceived ideas and open to truth it makes sense.......
I’m still trying to understand why you say these children had to be sacrificed in place of Jesus.... why?

Also, do you think those children fulfilled the feast of firstfruits?
 
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Even Paul asserts this very thing I am saying,

After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (Romans 11:24-26)

The Gentiles are grafted INTO ISRAEL, which is the cultivated olive tree. And in this way, in being grafted into Israel, are thus counted among the tribes of Israel. Even the son of the promise, who was Isaac, which is who the Gentiles represent, was a physical descendant of Abraham,

Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. (Galatians 4:28)

Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness and who seek Yehovah: Look to the rock from which you were cut and to the quarry from which you were hewn; look to Abraham, your father, and to Sarah, who gave you birth. When I called him he was only one man, and I blessed him and made him many. (Isaiah 51:1-2)
No, he doesn't!
 

povawiqe

New member
Nov 25, 2018
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I’m still trying to understand why you say these children had to be sacrificed in place of Jesus.... why?

Also, do you think those children fulfilled the feast of firstfruits?
The only way to fulfill the offering of First Fruits is to be offered as First Fruits on the day of the First Fruits offering of the Torah, such as the being offered as First Fruits of the barley harvest, which he did by being resurrected on that day and thus becoming the First Fruits from among the dead,

And Yehovah spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring an omer of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest, and he shall wave the omer before Yehovah, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Shabbat the priest shall wave it… (Leviticus 23:9-11)

For as in Adam all die, so also in the Messiah shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Messiah the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to the Messiah. (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

But in fact the Messiah has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15:20)

And in likewise manner, anyone who is a believer and receives the seal of God, which is the anointing, the airflow of God, also becomes First Fruits, because on the day the airflow of God was given, was also the day of another First Fruits offering, the offering of the wheat harvest,

You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Shabbat, from the day that you brought the omer of the wave offering. You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Shabbat… (Leviticus 23:15-16)

You shall count seven weeks. Begin to count the seven weeks from the time the sickle is first put to the standing grain. (Deuteronomy 16:9)

Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to Yehovah. You shall bring from your dwelling places two loaves of bread to be waved, made of two tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour, and they shall be baked with leaven, as first fruits to Yehovah. (Leviticus 23:16-17)

You shall observe the Feast of Weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest… (Exodus 34:22)

On the day of the first fruits, when you offer a grain offering of new grain to Yehovah at your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a set-apart convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work, (Numbers 28:26)

You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the first fruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field… (Exodus 23:16)

Then you shall keep the Feast of Weeks to Yehovah your God with the tribute of a voluntary offering from your hand, which you shall give as Yehovah your God blesses you. And you shall rejoice before Yehovah your God, you and your son and your daughter, your male servant and your female servant, the Levite who is within your towns, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow who are among you, at the place that Yehovah your God will choose, to make his name dwell there. (Deuteronomy 16:10-11)

When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the set-apart airflow and began to speak in other tongues as the airflow gave them utterance. (Acts 2:1-4)

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised set-apart airflow, (Ephesians 1:13)

Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

…They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. (Revelation 14:4)
 
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I’m still trying to understand why you say these children had to be sacrificed in place of Jesus.... why?

Also, do you think those children fulfilled the feast of firstfruits?
Brother.......how can you not understand that these Jewish/Hebrew boys were KILLED and Martyred in the place of and for JESUS......Herod was attempting to KILL JESUS as the KING BORN unto the JEWS and in an attempt to succeed in his mission he KILLED every boy under 2 in ALL of Israel and the COASTS THEREOF <----ALL because he was trying to KILL the ONE born KING of the JEWS (JESUS)

and if you will, please quote me where I said they HAD to be...............and we both Know that GOD prophetically deals with humans based upon what they WILL DO......this can be seen in....

Cyrus
Pharaoh
Judas Iscariot
etc.
and the 144,000
 
Dec 12, 2013
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"YOU WERE GRAFTED INTO A CULTIVATED OLIVE TREE". The cultivated olive tree is Israel. The wild olive tree is the Gentiles. Stop being stubborn.
SO what.....that does not equate GENTILES to being in the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel.....that is just ridiculous.....and take your own advice...and while you are at, it stop being dogmatic on something that is IMPOSSIBLE.....read it AGAIN.....and note....THESE ARE NOT GENTILES THAT HAVE BEEN GRAFTED IN

One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

THERE ARE NO GENTILES in the ABOVE GROUP...........
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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SO what.....that does not equate GENTILES to being in the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel.....that is just ridiculous.....and take your own advice...and while you are at, it stop being dogmatic on something that is IMPOSSIBLE.....read it AGAIN.....and note....THESE ARE NOT GENTILES THAT HAVE BEEN GRAFTED IN

One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

THERE ARE NO GENTILES in the ABOVE GROUP...........
These are God's elect people used for His service during the tribulation as mentioned in Matthew 24.
 

povawiqe

New member
Nov 25, 2018
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SO what.....that does not equate GENTILES to being in the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel.....that is just ridiculous.....and take your own advice...and while you are at, it stop being dogmatic on something that is IMPOSSIBLE.....read it AGAIN.....and note....THESE ARE NOT GENTILES THAT HAVE BEEN GRAFTED IN

One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

THERE ARE NO GENTILES in the ABOVE GROUP...........
The bible tell us that among the Gentiles exist the people of Israel that were dispersed from previous exiles, so why should it come as a shock that these Gentiles who are believers be counted among one of the tribes of Israel, if indeed the scriptures tell us that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel and the authors of the epistles wrote "to the twelve tribes dispersed among the Gentiles". Hello? You are refusing to conclude the obvious, and give yourself over to believing an illogical lie that the 144,000 were babies, which on the contrary, is what is actually ridiculous, not my explanation which is based on sound scripture. :p . Stop being stubborn.
 
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These are God's elect people used for His service during the tribulation as mentioned in Matthew 24.
Have you read the Op and the thread? My view differs on the 144,000, but one thing I do know for sure....they are not grafted in Gentiles......
 
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The bible tell us that among the Gentiles exist the people of Israel that were dispersed from previous exiles, so why should it come as a shock that these Gentiles who are believers be counted among one of the tribes of Israel, if indeed the scriptures tell us that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel and the authors of the epistles wrote "to the twelve tribes dispersed among the Gentiles". Hello? You are refusing to conclude the obvious, and give yourself over to believing an illogical lie that the 144,000 were babies, which on the contrary, is what is actually ridiculous, not my explanation which is based on sound scripture. :p . Stop being stubborn.
You gave no explanation other than to insert fallacies and illogical conclusions that this is a mixed bag of Gentiles and Jews......that in and of itself is ignorant.....
 

povawiqe

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Nov 25, 2018
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You gave no explanation other than to insert fallacies and illogical conclusions that this is a mixed bag of Gentiles and Jews......that in and of itself is ignorant.....
I gave an explanation as to HOW the Gentiles could actually descend from one of the tribes of Israel. You want more explanation? Here you go, which I doubt you will believe, because you don't want to,

The 144,000 follow the lamb wherever he goes,

They follow the Lamb wherever he goes… (Revelation 14:4 [NIV])​

Just as the believers, who are gathered at the second coming of Yeshuah Messiah, will then always be with Yeshuah,

For the Master himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in the Messiah will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air, and so we will always be with the Master. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)​

The 144,000 are also called first fruits,

…They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. (Revelation 14:4 [NIV])​

Just as the believers are also called a first fruits,

He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:18 [ESV])​

The 144,000 also have a seal,

saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” (Revelation 7:3 [ESV])​

Just as believers also have a seal, which is the airflow of God,

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised set-apart airflow, (Ephesians 1:13)​
And it is God who establishes us with you in the Messiah, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his airflow in our hearts as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)​

The 144,000 are also purchased,

And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. (Revelation 14:3 [NASB])​

Just as the believers are purchased,

you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. (1 Corinthians 6:20 [NIV])​
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the set-apart airflow has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the assembly of God, which he bought with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)​

The 144,000 are also virgins who will not defile themselves with women,

These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins… (Revelation 14:4 [NIV])​

Just as the believers will become virgins at the resurrection, for the believers will not marry nor be given in marriage,

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:30)​

Need I quote more scripture to prove the obvious? Stop being stubborn.
 
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I gave an explanation as to HOW the Gentiles could actually descend from one of the tribes of Israel. You want more explanation? Here you go, which I doubt you will believe, because you don't want to,

The 144,000 follow the lamb wherever he goes,

They follow the Lamb wherever he goes… (Revelation 14:4 [NIV])​

Just as the believers, who are gathered at the second coming of Yeshuah Messiah, will then always be with Yeshuah,

For the Master himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in the Messiah will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air, and so we will always be with the Master. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)​

The 144,000 are also called first fruits,

…They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. (Revelation 14:4 [NIV])​

Just as the believers are also called a first fruits,

He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:18 [ESV])​

The 144,000 also have a seal,

saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” (Revelation 7:3 [ESV])​

Just as believers also have a seal, which is the airflow of God,

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised set-apart airflow, (Ephesians 1:13)​
And it is God who establishes us with you in the Messiah, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his airflow in our hearts as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)​

The 144,000 are also purchased,

And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. (Revelation 14:3 [NASB])​

Just as the believers are purchased,

you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. (1 Corinthians 6:20 [NIV])​
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the set-apart airflow has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the assembly of God, which he bought with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)​

The 144,000 are also virgins who will not defile themselves with women,

These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins… (Revelation 14:4 [NIV])​

Just as the believers will become virgins at the resurrection, for the believers will not marry nor be given in marriage,

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:30)​

Need I quote more scripture to prove the obvious? Stop being stubborn.
You can quote verses all day long and it will not change the fact that they come from the 12 tribes of ISRAEL and are not Gentiles.....and the enlarge borders on idiotic......nor is that even close to being indicated....
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Have you read the Op and the thread? My view differs on the 144,000, but one thing I do know for sure....they are not grafted in Gentiles......
I agreed with you on this. I believe these 144,000 are Jews of the twelve tribes of Israel, not Gentiles. My thoughts are these are the called out group of Jew male virgins for God's service during the tribulation.
 
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I agreed with you on this. I believe these 144,000 are Jews of the twelve tribes of Israel, not Gentiles. My thoughts are these are the called out group of Jew male virgins for God's service during the tribulation.
I appreciate the view, but cannot go that route due to the 4 statements that tie their location to being in heaven already when Revelation was written....

a Singing a song before the throne, the 4 beasts and 24 elders
b. Sealed by an angel that ASCENDS while speaking to the angel DESCENDING to the earth
c. Following the lamb where ever he goes
d. Offered as the firstfruits unto GOD/Sealed in their heads by the Father's seal

ALL of the above are located in heaven.......

The throne, 4 beasts and elders are in heaven
The Lamb is in heaven
The Father/God is in heaven
Sealed by the angel ASCENDING to SEAL while speaking to angel DESCENDING to earth places them above the earth

Something overlooked is the fact that this is not the Holy Spirit sealing them in salvation, but an anomalous event and a unique event.......
 
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Hi thanks for the reply and the offering of your understanding and way of presenting it, easy to understand..

Not a salvation issue. I would think more of how do we hear God seeing he makes us different from each other. Perhaps like finger prints?

It would seem to be more his way according to my understanding . He is the one that calls his wife, a chaste virgin bride which is referring to Timothy in respect to a "new creature" in Christ. Described as neither male nor female, Jew or gentile (a Christian) waiting to receive her new wedding attire "clothed with the righteousness" of her husband, a new incorruptible body that all saints will receive it in the twinkling of the eye. It I believe is our living hope that we can have as he continues to give it..

Galatians 4:19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

It can be seen in the wonderful parable below, preaching the gospel of Christ that did follow the finished work of Christ's faith . Or that's is how I see the parable.


Paul in the parable below as jealous mother who suffered in birth pains until Christ's seed was formed in Timothy gives us the unseen spiritual understanding of what we will be.


2 Corinthians 11:2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

I think we could say a translation from these bodies of death to our new living hope receiving the end of it .

In that way as allegorical parable like below knowing we are not what we will be as new creatures. Not having received our new body . We walk by faith. Described as the chaste virgin bride of Christ as the mother of us all. A mystery made know.


Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

The desolate represent the chaste virgin bride the church . They await the day of consummation receiving the wedding attire the righteousness of her husband Christ
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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OK, but this wiki page coincides with actual Roman Archive and the Ruler who handled John at Patmos was Domitian according to Roman Archive. I am able to use to wiki since it matches 100% to Roman Archive. And Roman Archive claims you are wrong. And I believe Roman Archive is definitely more accurate than your opinion in this matter.

And yes, the Temple will be standing during the Tribulation period because the antichrist will defile it.
But verse 2 of chapter 11 also claims the Temple is gone so God did not have them measure the court.
Looks like you are picking and choosing scripture but actually none of it is lining up, including your list of Roman leaders.
The majority of biblical scholars agree John was in Patmos around 95/96 A.D. and lived to be a very old man in Ephesus.
But the big key is verse 3 the 2 witnesses that get killed and come back to life. Nowhere in the 70 A.D. do historians claim this event took place. Clearly this is about the future as in our time and beyond, not the 70 A.D. destruction.
Rev 11
9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

The phenomenon of the Two Witnesses is worldwide, using modern broadcasting technology.
The time is now.....not 70 AD.