The 144,000 named in Revelation

[GraceAndTruth]

Revelation written BEFORE 70AD
1. John was not on Patmos after 68AD. As a prisoner on Patmost he would have been released on the death of Nero as was the custom of that time.
2. John mentions the temple as standing in REv 11
3. That John mentions the 7 kings with 5 dead and the 6th in power, which is Nero, (the 7th being Galba who reigned for 7 months)
4 John said he was ON Patmos when he wrote this.

 

[garee]

You need to give that statement more thought, viginity is not a state of mind it is a physical fact.

Its easy to forget we are new creatures.

The virgin represents those married to Christ as new creatures not receiving the wedding attire the new incorruptible bodies. The wedding will be consummated in the new heavens and earth

Yes the Bible uses the word virgin to represent his chaste virgin bride the church. She has not fornicated with the gods of this world like the queen of heaven. But rather obey the first commandment to have no gods before our living God, Christ Jesus.

What we are as new creatures (neither male or female, Jew or gentile ) will not be what we will when we do receive our new incorruptible body. This is when the veil of God's glory will be lifted.

We should remember the church as His chaste virgin bride is reckoned as the mother of us all.

Like shown with Paul as a surrogate mother shown holding out the word of God the gospel of our salvation in Timothy until the incorruptible seed, Christ, is formed in us.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

As a mother zealous for her child Paul as a example espouses Timothy to Christ our husband that he may present Timothy as a chaste virgin to Christ. The same chaste virgin bride pictured in Revelation 12. Tts the end of time. The two time keepers the Sun and Moon under her feet. .

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

P.S. (to my last post) I forgot to mention how Matthew 22:7-8 shows a SEQUENCE (in the following):

--v.7 "7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." (the 70ad events--compare the "70ad events" section of the Olivet Discourse, in Luke 21:12-24a, esp "wrath upon this people" in v.23 and "when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" in v.20)

--v.8 "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" (this necessarily FOLLOWS the 70ad events, when He does the "THEN SAITH HE to his servants," not before the 70ad events; Jesus had long been in Heaven as of that point in the chronology, yet "THEN SAITH HE to...")


...and so the Revelation 1:1 "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" that ends with His Second Coming to the earth, is describing that 7-yrs leading UP TO His "RETURN" ("which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, to SHEW UNTO His servants... " [comp 7:3])

 

[KJV1611]

Here's the portion I wrote regarding that:



So, yes, "before she travailed"... [then: insert "brought forth" here]… then "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL; Mt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 equaling the SEALS of Rev6; and the INITIAL "BP [SINGULAR]" being referred to in 1Th5:2-3 (i.e. the START of "the Day of the Lord [time period]" which involves the "whose coming/arrival/advent/presence/parousia " of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME [parallel Dan9:27a "for ONE WEEK"])]"<---so [just] "before THAT (as that is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"]" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that follow on from there).

[2Th2 shows the SAME SEQUENCE as does 1Th4-5, "ONE THING" must take place "FIRST" before the other can "be present" to unfold upon the earth over the course of some time (IOW, I see the "7 years" referred to in both contexts of 2Th2 and Dan9:27[26]: its "BEGINNING," its "MIDDLE," AND its "END")]

I see Micah and Isaiah as the birth of Christ, it’s funny how people read the same verses and come to different conclusions.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

"virginity" is not a renewing of the mind, it is PHYSICAL. This is important to get right because Mary, mother of Jesus, is said to be physically virgin. (a maid) This is ESSENTIAL to the doctrine of Jesus being of the divine Father.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I see Micah and Isaiah as the birth of Christ, it’s funny how people read the same verses and come to different conclusions.

That's why I had stated the word "sequentially after verse 2" [AFTER the v.2 events] (and note the "give them up, until" part, in Micah 5:3); and compare "the remnant of his brethren [shall return...]" (v.3) with the phrase "the remnant of her children" in Rev12.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[tried to] EDIT ^ : "[comp Hos5:15-6:3 ("UNTIL"...and "Come, let us return..."), along with its parallels I've listed in the past: Isa26:16-21; Ezek37:12-14,20-23; Rom11:15; Dan12:1-4,10; etc... (ALL regarding Israel's FUTURE; i.e. Israel coming up out of "the graveyard of nations," where scattered); also Rom9:26/Hos1:10 (re: Israel) contrasted with Rom9:25/Hos2:23b (re: the Gentiles)]"

 

[Locutus]

Adam Clarke's commentrary:


Verse 4

These are they which were not defiled with women - They are pure from idolatry, and are presented as unspotted virgins to their Lord and Savior Christ. See 2 Corinthians 11:2. There may be an allusion here to the Israelites committing idolatry, through the means of their criminal connection with the Midianitish women. See Numbers 25:1-4; Numbers 31:16.


Follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth - They go through good and through evil report, bear his reproach, and love not their lives even to the death.


The first fruits unto God - The reference appears to be to those Jews who were the first converts to Christianity.

 

[KJV1611]

P.S. (to my last post) I forgot to mention how Matthew 22:7-8 shows a SEQUENCE (in the following):

--v.7 "7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." (the 70ad events--compare the "70ad events" section of the Olivet Discourse, in Luke 21:12-24a, esp "wrath upon this people" in v.23 and "when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" in v.20)

--v.8 "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" (this necessarily FOLLOWS the 70ad events, when He does the "THEN SAITH HE to his servants," not before the 70ad events; Jesus had long been in Heaven as of that point in the chronology, yet "THEN SAITH HE to...")


...and so the Revelation 1:1 "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" that ends with His Second Coming to the earth, is describing that 7-yrs leading UP TO His "RETURN" ("which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, to SHEW UNTO His servants... " [comp 7:3])

That’s a good point about events must be after ad 70, if that destruction is talking about the ad 70 destruction.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That’s a good point about events must be after ad 70, if that destruction is talking about the ad 70 destruction.

Thanks for saying so. Glad to know it (...that what I wrote was conveyed somewhat coherently and that you grasped my point. Thanks!)

 

[KJV1611]

My opinion is that the sealing of the 144000 is hidden in the Old Testament and it’s my belief that we can’t understand the 144000 without it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes i have given it more thought and concluded that a two year old can only be a virgin in your mind and not physically on the child. Whichever angle you want to look at it, even if a two year old is forced into a sexual act, they will still remain 'virgins' for they know not what sexuality is - not that virginity means anything to them. So it is about the mind and not physical.

I would respond to this, but would probably get banned if I said what I really think about this post.....shakes head is astonishment......!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

And what is truth?

I bet Pilate still wishes he knew and had done things differently.........

 

[garee]

"virginity" is not a renewing of the mind, it is PHYSICAL. This is important to get right because Mary, mother of Jesus, is said to be physically virgin. (a maid) This is ESSENTIAL to the doctrine of Jesus being of the divine Father.

"Virginity" is more in the spiritual realm like the use of the word fatherless or widows. A widow would be as a virgin not married .Just as fatherless represents our father in heaven. Both in the special care people of the family of God are to have for one another.

James 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

The bride of Christ is recognized as a chaste virgin as one that does not fornicate with the gods of this world. Mary could of been but again the flesh of Christ is shown as profiting for nothing as far as the actual of pouring out his Spirit (unseen work) as promised in Joel.

If its not after the corrupted flesh of the Son of man Jesus then for sure it cannot be after Mary. She was a good example of a believer.

Hand maiden I think simply means female slave.

 

[garee]

My opinion is that the sealing of the 144000 is hidden in the Old Testament and it’s my belief that we can’t understand the 144000 without it.

It represents the bride of Christ, the church coming down from heaven prepared as a city of believers as to the residents thereof, under the head, the husband Christ. . Given meaning to the new name God name his bride the church . Christian ..She is made up of many lively stones that forms the spiritual unseen house the church.

 

[KJV1611]

It represents the bride of Christ, the church coming down from heaven prepared as a city of believers as to the residents thereof, under the head, the husband Christ. . Given meaning to the new name God name his bride the church . Christian ..She is made up of many lively stones that forms the spiritual unseen house the church.

12000 are sealed from each of the tribes of Israel, how do you figure only Jews are the bride of Christ?

 

[iamsoandso]

Revelation written BEFORE 70AD
1. Jonn was not on Patmos after 68AD. As a prisoner on Patmost he would have been released on the death of Nero as was the custom of that time.
2. John mentions the temple as standing in REv 11
3. That John mentions the 7 kings with 5 dead and the 6th in power, which is Nero, (the 7th being Galba who reigned for 7 months)
4 John said he was ON Patmos when he wrote this.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0136.htm see chapter 11 Polycarp(Bishop of Smyrna) thought Smyrna didn't know the Lord then.

 

[marinerscatch]

Revelation written BEFORE 70AD
1. John was not on Patmos after 68AD. As a prisoner on Patmost he would have been released on the death of Nero as was the custom of that time.
2. John mentions the temple as standing in REv 11
3. That John mentions the 7 kings with 5 dead and the 6th in power, which is Nero, (the 7th being Galba who reigned for 7 months)
4 John said he was ON Patmos when he wrote this.

Roman Archives and historians have a different view.

John of Patmos - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos
The early Christian writer Papias appeared in his writings to distinguish between John the Evangelist and John the Elder, and many biblical scholars now contend that the latter was the author of Revelation. Island of Patmos. John is considered to be exiled to Patmos, undergoing a time of persecution under the Roman rule of Domitian.

Emperor Domitian, brother of Titus who led the destruction of Jerusalem 70 A.D. under Nero, claims and is recorded to be responsible for placing John in Patmos around 95 A.D. Nero died and Titus took over. After Titus, his brother Domitian ruled. This is according to Roman Archives and historian views.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here are a few more of my thoughts (not going into great detail here):

--I see a distinction between the "firstfruit" of the harvest in [what is sometimes called] the month of "Nisan" ("the sheaf [H6016 - omer]"--"to be accepted on your behalf") and that of the "firstfruit" of the later thing, on Shavuot/Pentecost (involving the "TWO wave loaves" baken "with leaven" which are considered "the firstfruit unto the Lord" [pretty much as Rev14:4 states])

--I believe Jesus fulfilled the first one ON His Resurrection Day ("FF"), when He "[actively] ascend[-ed]," just as He told Mary Magdalene (John 20:17-18, and what is referred to in Acts 13:33/Psalm 2 and in John 16:19-22), some 40 days BEFORE His later VISIBLE ascension (Acts1) which is the way in which, it says, He will RETURN (or "shall so come in like manner as YE HAVE SEEN Him go into Heaven"). Note, that this took place "not many days" BEFORE Shavuot/Pentecost (rather than ON it ...so I see a future aspect to this [Shavuot/Pentecost] as well, regarding this particular "firstfruit" / "harvest" which is separate to that of the other)



And perhaps I've mentioned in past posts how there was a study (long ago, I read) which shows how Paul was a "type" of the [future] 144,000 (and where it states that he was "as of one born out of due time," which some suggest means "[too] early"/"earlier than the rest"/like a preemie )

 

[dcontroversal]

Adam Clarke's commentrary:


Verse 4

These are they which were not defiled with women - They are pure from idolatry, and are presented as unspotted virgins to their Lord and Savior Christ. See 2 Corinthians 11:2. There may be an allusion here to the Israelites committing idolatry, through the means of their criminal connection with the Midianitish women. See Numbers 25:1-4; Numbers 31:16.


Follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth - They go through good and through evil report, bear his reproach, and love not their lives even to the death.


The first fruits unto God - The reference appears to be to those Jews who were the first converts to Christianity.

No thanks to a commentary.........the facts and characteristics are clear enough.....and the above is pure speculation....