The 144,000 named in Revelation
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What we do not realize is that there is a heavenly realm right here on earth. That is why we get confused when scripture says something happening obviously on earth as it is in heaven. Examples:
Rev. 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"
Rev. 15:1 "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."
So, it goes right on and describes something going on in the earth.
Rev. 7:1-4 “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
These are children or young adults, because they are virgins. It wouldn’t make sense to stop the seals unless God were saving flesh and blood humans. God could let them just die, like the rest of the saints; and let them become spirits upon Christ's return. These are younger people that God will allowed to start the millennial rule.
They seem to have the Holy Spirit. That makes them exceptions of being changed into spirits at Christ's coming. They are to be planted into their tribes’ original lands for the start of the millennial rule (Ezek 48). Remember, Ezekiel wrote after the ten northern tribes were long gone. This all happens after the living water is already flowing from the throne of God (Ezek 47).
Rev. 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"
Rev. 15:1 "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."
So, it goes right on and describes something going on in the earth.
Rev. 7:1-4 “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
These are children or young adults, because they are virgins. It wouldn’t make sense to stop the seals unless God were saving flesh and blood humans. God could let them just die, like the rest of the saints; and let them become spirits upon Christ's return. These are younger people that God will allowed to start the millennial rule.
They seem to have the Holy Spirit. That makes them exceptions of being changed into spirits at Christ's coming. They are to be planted into their tribes’ original lands for the start of the millennial rule (Ezek 48). Remember, Ezekiel wrote after the ten northern tribes were long gone. This all happens after the living water is already flowing from the throne of God (Ezek 47).
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Yes, I do realize this.
But I was specifically pointing out that Rev1:1 is talking about His "SHEWING" unto His servants [see 7:3] "things which must come to pass" [compare THIS phrase with the FUTURE ASPECTS getting ready to be disclosed in 4:1 and following: "must come to pass" 1:1 / 4:1, not presently taking place; so the prophetic and FUTURE aspects "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (the specific FUTURE things; though the earlier chpts [before 4:1] cover "the things which are"... and [after 4:1] "meta tauta"--"after these things" [that is, both 1:19 and 4:1 contain this phrase], and then 1:1 and 4:1 both speak of "MUST [G1163 - dei] take place" (one then says "hereafter/after these" and the other then says "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--both are referring to the FUTURE aspects of the Book, the one "IN RELATION TO WHAT ELSE [time-wise]," and the other the "DURATION" of what is therein described [chpts 4-19 the FUTURE things], "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]").
Hope that makes sense and helps clarify my earlier post.
But I was specifically pointing out that Rev1:1 is talking about His "SHEWING" unto His servants [see 7:3] "things which must come to pass" [compare THIS phrase with the FUTURE ASPECTS getting ready to be disclosed in 4:1 and following: "must come to pass" 1:1 / 4:1, not presently taking place; so the prophetic and FUTURE aspects "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (the specific FUTURE things; though the earlier chpts [before 4:1] cover "the things which are"... and [after 4:1] "meta tauta"--"after these things" [that is, both 1:19 and 4:1 contain this phrase], and then 1:1 and 4:1 both speak of "MUST [G1163 - dei] take place" (one then says "hereafter/after these" and the other then says "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--both are referring to the FUTURE aspects of the Book, the one "IN RELATION TO WHAT ELSE [time-wise]," and the other the "DURATION" of what is therein described [chpts 4-19 the FUTURE things], "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]").
Hope that makes sense and helps clarify my earlier post.
Yep and those are the things that prevent us from taking a verse and making a doctrine out it. It’s also the reason why verses like those can be read to support anyone’s preconceived ideas.... including mine lol.
That’s the way I see it too. It seems judgement is coming and God is giving protection to them.
I believe the living waters started flow when Christ came the first time. 😊
I believe the living waters started flow when Christ came the first time. 😊
There's nothing to suggest that the scope of whatever John was writing included the past especially in the verse you have quoted.
"Things you have seen..." are things John was seeing in the visions. The very first verse has explained it:
Rev 1:1The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The issue about Herod killing the young boys was not a vision to John, he must have witnessed it first hand because he must have been young when it happened and it was all over the news- so how can it be a vision? Even if he wasn't around, he must have heard it as 'breaking news', something that was even prophesied "Rachel weeping for her young ones.."
Jer 31:15This is what the LORD says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping,Rachel weeping for her children, and refusing consolation, because they are no more.”
Matt 2:
14So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.” c
16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
18“A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”
John, who witnessed this prophesy fulfilled could not come again in his old age and claim to prophesy or reveal what has already been revealed.
"Things you have seen..." are things John was seeing in the visions. The very first verse has explained it:
Rev 1:1The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The issue about Herod killing the young boys was not a vision to John, he must have witnessed it first hand because he must have been young when it happened and it was all over the news- so how can it be a vision? Even if he wasn't around, he must have heard it as 'breaking news', something that was even prophesied "Rachel weeping for her young ones.."
Jer 31:15This is what the LORD says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping,Rachel weeping for her children, and refusing consolation, because they are no more.”
Matt 2:
14So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.” c
16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
18“A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”
John, who witnessed this prophesy fulfilled could not come again in his old age and claim to prophesy or reveal what has already been revealed.
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No offence but even a cursory read of Revelation contains numerous events from the past BEFORE it was written......as well as current events when written and numerous yet to be fulfilled events....and your premise fails the smell test nor does it hold up under scrutiny.......
Another one not open to the truth....probably why I rarely engage you......
AND TO TAKE THE LID off and REVEAL does not necessarily imply a future only context......man you got a lot to learn about biblical interpretation
Another one not open to the truth....probably why I rarely engage you......
AND TO TAKE THE LID off and REVEAL does not necessarily imply a future only context......man you got a lot to learn about biblical interpretation
As I had been saying, I believe 1:1 [where it says "to shew unto" and the "things which must come to pass" parts] and 4:1 [similarly] both speak to "the FUTURE things" of the Book. Which passages following 4:1 do you believe are things that took place in the past? Let me just mention that I believe that chpt 5 is a future setting, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, Lam2:3-4, and others] being a "judgment setting" [24 thrones around the One throne]; and I tend to believe that all of the context of Revelation 12 refers to future things (correlating with both Micah 5:3 [sequentially after v.2], and Isaiah 66:7 "before she travailed..." [the "beginning of birth PANGS" follow this point, and yes Rev12:13 states "the woman WHICH HAD brought forth the male" so it's "past" in THAT sense, but meaning "past" from the perspective of mid-trib, not distant past [some 2000 yrs prior]. JMHO). Can you point to any others? (you'll likely not convince me that these two are [distant-]"past" events, but I just wondered if you see others. Thanks!)
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If I may just clarify a bit ^ (in case this wasn't clear)... I believe Revelation was written in [around] 95ad, and that the "future things" in it are all far-future from when it was written, and will take place "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [1:1] (rather than things transpiring over the course of some 2000 years), that is, in/during the last 2520 days leading UP TO Christ's Second coming to the earth (from Seal #1 through His "RETURN" in chpt 19).
Yes i have given it more thought and concluded that a two year old can only be a virgin in your mind and not physically on the child. Whichever angle you want to look at it, even if a two year old is forced into a sexual act, they will still remain 'virgins' for they know not what sexuality is - not that virginity means anything to them. So it is about the mind and not physical.
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Here's the portion I wrote regarding that:
So, yes, "before she travailed"... [then: insert "brought forth" here]… then "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL; Mt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 equaling the SEALS of Rev6; and the INITIAL "BP [SINGULAR]" being referred to in 1Th5:2-3 (i.e. the START of "the Day of the Lord [time period]" which involves the "whose coming/arrival/advent/presence/parousia " of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME [parallel Dan9:27a "for ONE WEEK"])]"<---so [just] "before THAT (as that is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"]" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that follow on from there).
[2Th2 shows the SAME SEQUENCE as does 1Th4-5, "ONE THING" must take place "FIRST" before the other can "be present" to unfold upon the earth over the course of some time (IOW, I see the "7 years" referred to in both contexts of 2Th2 and Dan9:27[26]: its "BEGINNING," its "MIDDLE," AND its "END")]
So, yes, "before she travailed"... [then: insert "brought forth" here]… then "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL; Mt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 equaling the SEALS of Rev6; and the INITIAL "BP [SINGULAR]" being referred to in 1Th5:2-3 (i.e. the START of "the Day of the Lord [time period]" which involves the "whose coming/arrival/advent/presence/parousia " of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME [parallel Dan9:27a "for ONE WEEK"])]"<---so [just] "before THAT (as that is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"]" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that follow on from there).
[2Th2 shows the SAME SEQUENCE as does 1Th4-5, "ONE THING" must take place "FIRST" before the other can "be present" to unfold upon the earth over the course of some time (IOW, I see the "7 years" referred to in both contexts of 2Th2 and Dan9:27[26]: its "BEGINNING," its "MIDDLE," AND its "END")]