The Absence of Free Will

[pottersclay]

I struggle with this, and ask the Lord to help me to understand. I so do not want to be the one who constantly seeks and never finds the truth, but bear with me as i express my delimma

Ok so we see from the old testament and new testament that God is a God of patterns, right? We see that He chose individuals over and over and even a nation of ppl, correct? We even see that in the new testament, He chose Mary, Paul and the 12 disciples. He even chose the man of perdition to fulfill the scripture.

So taking the side of no free will is not a huge leap, especially when you consider the verses of foreknowledge, predestination and election. < I would say they fall into Gods perspective (as my finite mind interprets the scriptures).

So that all has to harmonize with the choice which we are clearly given from the beginning, the choice to take that perverbial bite into crime... the tree of knowledge and evil. The choice to pick who we will serve.... on and on.

Choice given makes more sense, otherwise, what's the point.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32.

So I think it is both, He foreknew, and predestined and yet He calls all people to Himself...

How that is possible, I am still not sure. I mean does my even considering a middle ground break the law of non contradiction?

All that you have said is true, but let's look at it a little closer . God said to Israel through Joshua choose this day who you will serve.
Jesus said to the apostles....all have left will you leave me too?
The history of Israel is a established fact it is not a fairy tale. Imo it is God's way to show the world life is by design and not random.
Such is the case with the creation its self. All by design.
If one believes by design then one searches for it's maker. If by design then what's its purpose. When purpose is found what is it's conclusion.
If one believes life is random, evolutionary, then to himself he is a god. In charge of his own destiny. Believing a lie.
In the book of acts Paul preaching to the Greeks begins at creation, and establishes the point of one God because of their beliefs.
Peter speaking to the Jews begins with Adam and the bloodline and the prophets to establish Jesus as Messiah. Because of their beliefs.
As you can see nothing has changed since those days.
Peters conversion of three thousand was based on a history which God designed. Is that to mean that Paul's message failed? Certainly not. Some came to Christ through Paul's message which had no history to base it's conclusion.
The power of love and grace.
In the end God has established his purpose by his design that all would repent and be saved as the Lord's finger prints and foot steps are on all that exist. As Paul wrote we are without excuse. But the cares of this world and the crafty father of lies has added and taken away from the truth and blinded the eyes of those who are obsessed with themselves.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

One of the things that I was not clear on your explanation was on Romans 10:1-2-3, You had stated that Paul was upset with the fact that the NATION of Israel would not come unto a knowledge of the Gospel in order to be saved eternally. I am of the understanding that Israel in this verse has reference to Jacob, as Israel, and not the nation of Israel. My understanding is that they were already eternally saved, by evidence of having a zeal of God. I equate them as being in the same position as most on this forum who are of the elect, but are believing in a false doctrine of eternal salvation, by their good works. There is a deliverance (salvation) when an elect child of God comes unto a knowledge of the truth of the Gospel. This deliverance is not eternal deliverance, because they already have that security, but it is a deliverance that they receive at the moment they receive and understand the knowledge. Just as you, yourself, through your study of the scriptures came to a knowledge of the truth of the Gospel. Do you understand what I am trying to convey to you? I believe the elect children of God are missing out on a full understanding of the Gospel by not taking in consideration that a lot of scriptures about ISRAEL has reference to Jacob's name being changed to ISRAEL. My understanding of the two gates mentioned in Matthew are along this line of thinking in that the people that go into both gates are the elect, the wide gate=false doctrines due to a lack of knowledge and the straight gate being those who have been revealed the true knowledge of the Gospel.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't agree with your belief system.

I believe in the doctrines of grace, which include eternal security. And, I don't think someone needs to understand the doctrines of grace to be saved.

I think people can be confused on some doctrinal issues, but still be saved. However, I don't think a real believer will deny the deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, original sin, inspiration and infallibility of Scripture, original sin, the Triune God if those teachings have been presented to them.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't agree with your belief system.

I believe in the doctrines of grace, which include eternal security. And, I don't think someone needs to understand the doctrines of grace to be saved.

I think people can be confused on some doctrinal issues, but still be saved. However, I don't think a real believer will deny the deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, original sin, inspiration and infallibility of Scripture, original sin, the Triune God if those teachings have been presented to them.

I believe in the doctrines of grace the same as you, but I don't think that I put as strict limitations as you do. I believe that the scriptures teach that if a person truly believes in and worships a spiritual God, then they are of the elect that have been regenerated. I am not saying that do not, but you may not be understanding just how deeply depraved an elect and regenerated child of God can be by his fleshly nature. You say "I'm pretty sure I wouldn't agree with your belief system". Can you explain why?

 

[Whispered]

I believe in the doctrines of grace the same as you, but I don't think that I put as strict limitations as you do. I believe that the scriptures teach that if a person truly believes in and worships a spiritual God, then they are of the elect that have been regenerated. I am not saying that do not, but you may not be understanding just how deeply depraved an elect and regenerated child of God can be by his fleshly nature. You say "I'm pretty sure I wouldn't agree with your belief system". Can you explain why?

What was regenerated in that person if they remain deeply depraved?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't agree with your belief system.

I believe in the doctrines of grace, which include eternal security. And, I don't think someone needs to understand the doctrines of grace to be saved.

I think people can be confused on some doctrinal issues, but still be saved. However, I don't think a real believer will deny the deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, original sin, inspiration and infallibility of Scripture, original sin, the Triune God if those teachings have been presented to them.

I am in agreement with everything that you have just stated. I can not understand, if you believe all of the scriptures referencing salvation means eternal salvation, how do you refute eternal salvation by works?

 

[John146]

I am in agreement with everything that you have just stated. I can not understand, if you believe all of the scriptures referencing salvation means eternal salvation, how do you refute eternal salvation by works?

Through rightly dividing the word of truth. Not all Scripture is written to us, but all is written for us. Rightly divide the proper audience and dispensation.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Through rightly dividing the word of truth. Not all Scripture is written to us, but all is written for us. Rightly divide the proper audience and dispensation.

All scripture is written to us, but some is written about others, to us.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I am in agreement with everything that you have just stated. I can not understand, if you believe all of the scriptures referencing salvation means eternal salvation, how do you refute eternal salvation by works?

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

If you are talking about salvation by works, my position is that the Father elects, the Son atones for the sins of the elect, and the Holy Spirit applies the benefits of salvation, which include sanctification, perseverance, and glorification. This is accomplished through a spiritual union with Christ. The entire package of salvation is a gift to the believer. This does not mean, though, that the believer, at the human level, isn't mindful to produce the fruit of good works. This is plain from Philippians 2:12-13.

Works are a fruit of salvation, and if there is no fruit, one should consider whether they are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5).

 

[John146]

All scripture is written to us, but some is written about others, to us.

To us and for us...know the difference.

 

[so-jesus-e-deus]

Free will don't exist. After all, every is slave of the sin (Romans 3.9) and nobody that is slave is free.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Free will don't exist. After all, every is slave of the sin (Romans 3.9) and nobody that is slave is free.

It is definite that libertarian free will doesn't exist.

However, we have a free will that is creaturely....it is subject to the nature of the person.

Their idea is that the will is some kind of separate component of the soul that was not corrupted by the fall. It is capable of making decisions without any external influence. Like you mention, Scripture says the fallen man is a slave to sin.

 

[Whispered]

I am in agreement with everything that you have just stated. I can not understand, if you believe all of the scriptures referencing salvation means eternal salvation, how do you refute eternal salvation by works?

The Bible does that for us.
Ephesians 2:8-10 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 3:28 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
James 2:18-26 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder. 20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

If we could work to be saved Jesus would not have come to die to make it so by faith.


And also, I accept that your theology is not able to give answer to my prior question.

ForestGreenCook said:
I believe in the doctrines of grace the same as you, but I don't think that I put as strict limitations as you do. I believe that the scriptures teach that if a person truly believes in and worships a spiritual God, then they are of the elect that have been regenerated. I am not saying that do not, but you may not be understanding just how deeply depraved an elect and regenerated child of God can be by his fleshly nature. You say "I'm pretty sure I wouldn't agree with your belief system". Can you explain why?

Whispered Said: What was regenerated in that person if they remain deeply depraved?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

If you are talking about salvation by works, my position is that the Father elects, the Son atones for the sins of the elect, and the Holy Spirit applies the benefits of salvation, which include sanctification, perseverance, and glorification. This is accomplished through a spiritual union with Christ. The entire package of salvation is a gift to the believer. This does not mean, though, that the believer, at the human level, isn't mindful to produce the fruit of good works. This is plain from Philippians 2:12-13.

Works are a fruit of salvation, and if there is no fruit, one should consider whether they are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5).

I am not sure what you mean by "in the faith". There is no doubt that these people in the church at Corinth have been born of the Spirit in the new birth and do possess the faith of the Spirit, although their faith may be weak, as all of us are at times, but they are still of the elect.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I am not sure what you mean by "in the faith". There is no doubt that these people in the church at Corinth have been born of the Spirit in the new birth and do possess the faith of the Spirit, although their faith may be weak, as all of us are at times, but they are still of the elect.

To us and for us...know the difference.

One in the same. If it was written to us, it was written for us.

 

[John146]

One in the same. If it was written to us, it was written for us.

Most of the Lord’s instructions in His word are not to us but for us to read and study how He dealt with man in different time periods.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I am not sure what you mean by "in the faith". There is no doubt that these people in the church at Corinth have been born of the Spirit in the new birth and do possess the faith of the Spirit, although their faith may be weak, as all of us are at times, but they are still of the elect.

It's possible to be a false believer.

There are some who profess faith, but don't possess it. Scripture warns about this possibility. They don't produce the fruit of salvation. You might read Matthew 7 in this regard, too.

A good sign of those who are professors, and not possessors, is that they don't produce spiritual fruit. That is why believers are to examine themselves, whether they are in the faith.

Other signs of real faith are indicated in 1 John.

My guess is that some within Corinth were real believers, and others were not. Some were in union with Christ, and some were not. Those who are in union with Christ produce spiritual fruit, just like the vine of John 15.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This article gives some idea on the problems with "free will" theology.

http://spiritoferror.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Gomes-God-in-Mans-Image-CRJ.pdf

Here's a series of three articles that show how YWAM has promoted this faulty theology in the past (and currently, in the Philippines at least):

http://www.spiritoferror.org/2019/0...am-part-1-a-sketchy-theological-heritage/8273
http://www.spiritoferror.org/2019/0...ering-with-the-new-apostolic-reformation/8331
http://www.spiritoferror.org/2020/0...now-about-ywam-part-3-hearing-gods-voice/8886

It leads, quite often, to a denial of original sin, imputed righteousness, and justification by faith alone. It leads to pridefulness and boasting.

Note: when I use the phrase "free will", I mean libertarian free will...the idea that God does not affect or change the will or nature of the person in order to accomplish his purposes.

By the way, my most beloved pastor was a free-willer (I left his church over that issue eventually).

The last time I talked to him at lunch, he told me how much freedom he felt knowing that God is basically letting him make his own path in the world. He was the master of his own fate, according to these toilet bowl theologians. I remember him bringing up open theist gurus like Clark Pinnock and Greg Boyd at one time or another..I'm not sure if it was this lunch appointment or not, but I knew the context of his remarks and the toilet bowl theology he was drinking from.

I don't know how long it was after that, but he fell down the stairs at his home and broke his neck. He was going to the restroom and returned. He mistook the basement door for his bedroom, and stepped into the darkness. He lingered for a while after the accident, but could not move. His wife wouldn't let anyone see him due to the risk of pneumonia, but I asked her to tell him that God is in control. I know he was heavily sedated and eventually intubated, but I hope he had enough time to reconsider his position, and to find his rest in the LORD.

I know that God is in control. He uses events and choices to guide his children in being conformed to the image of Christ. Scripture as a whole witnesses to it, if one has the eyes to see it.

However, I wonder if he got past the false teachings of Clark Pinnock and the rest of the "open theist" trash that infiltrates the Church today...I hope so. I think it would be very dark for him if he didn't realize that God was sovereignly operating within his circumstances, and that they had purpose.

My opinion of the writings of Pinnock and other open theists is that they should be used for outhouse toilet paper, if it isn't clear. These false teachings rob believers of the confidence they should have in God's sovereignty and provision.

 

[garee]

What does a world look like in the absence of free will. I understand this will knock on the Calvinist door but it also knocks on the atheists door also. And the atheist is who I usually spend time debating as to why I am challenging that worldview and that view has unknowingly persuaded other Christians. The world of a true materialist is a world absent of free will.

The world would look like it does.A dying creation as the wrath of God revealed from heaven. God did not create free will agents as empty blobs of flesh .

But rather in programming set up laws according to the letter, scripture. Mankind chose do the will of another the father of lies immediately they knew they were naked .The glory of God departed .

The whole world as one corrupted world government under the god of this world .

The Son of man Jesus set the example for a kingdom of preist not under the authority of This world .Ambassadors from a foreign land

The new heavenly Jerusalamen/Zion prepared as His eternal bride. . Eating or doing the will of the father that worked in Jesus . The food of the father's will as that which at first the disciples knew not of . The same food or meat of the Word that was rejected by doing the will of another in the garden.

John 4:33-35 King James Version (KJV) Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

Free will to a Christian is to do the will of the father. Those who want no part of that will can search but not find salvation. .Just freedom to oppose it. we should do so without murmuring .Seeing it is God who does work in in us both to will and do His good pleasure .

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I struggle with this, and ask the Lord to help me to understand. I so do not want to be the one who constantly seeks and never finds the truth, but bear with me as i express my delimma

Ok so we see from the old testament and new testament that God is a God of patterns, right? We see that He chose individuals over and over and even a nation of ppl, correct? We even see that in the new testament, He chose Mary, Paul and the 12 disciples. He even chose the man of perdition to fulfill the scripture.

So taking the side of no free will is not a huge leap, especially when you consider the verses of foreknowledge, predestination and election. < I would say they fall into Gods perspective (as my finite mind interprets the scriptures).

So that all has to harmonize with the choice which we are clearly given from the beginning, the choice to take that perverbial bite into crime... the tree of knowledge and evil. The choice to pick who we will serve.... on and on.

Choice given makes more sense, otherwise, what's the point.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32.

So I think it is both, He foreknew, and predestined and yet He calls all people to Himself...

How that is possible, I am still not sure. I mean does my even considering a middle ground break the law of non contradiction?

God did foreknow that no one would choose to seek him, Psalms 53:2-3. Because of his foreknowledge, he choose an elect portion out of those that did not seek him, and did predestinate them to be adopted as his children, Eph 1. The "all people" in John 12:32, that he draws is not all mankind, but only the "all people" that he predestined to become his adopted children. If the scriptures seem to contradict each other, it is not the fault of the scriptures, but our misinterpretation of them. All scriptures must harmonize, before you can understand the truths within them. The scriptures are written in a mystery and are only revealed, by the Holy Spirit, unto but a few. This is a mystery to me, as to why God has chosen not to reveal it to all of his adopted children, but that seems to be his will, according to the scriptures.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This article gives some idea on the problems with "free will" theology.

http://spiritoferror.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Gomes-God-in-Mans-Image-CRJ.pdf

Here's a series of three articles that show how YWAM has promoted this faulty theology in the past (and currently, in the Philippines at least):

http://www.spiritoferror.org/2019/0...am-part-1-a-sketchy-theological-heritage/8273
http://www.spiritoferror.org/2019/0...ering-with-the-new-apostolic-reformation/8331
http://www.spiritoferror.org/2020/0...now-about-ywam-part-3-hearing-gods-voice/8886

It leads, quite often, to a denial of original sin, imputed righteousness, and justification by faith alone. It leads to pridefulness and boasting.

Note: when I use the phrase "free will", I mean libertarian free will...the idea that God does not affect or change the will or nature of the person in order to accomplish his purposes.

By the way, my most beloved pastor was a free-willer (I left his church over that issue eventually).

The last time I talked to him at lunch, he told me how much freedom he felt knowing that God is basically letting him make his own path in the world. He was the master of his own fate, according to these toilet bowl theologians. I remember him bringing up open theist gurus like Clark Pinnock and Greg Boyd at one time or another..I'm not sure if it was this lunch appointment or not, but I knew the context of his remarks and the toilet bowl theology he was drinking from.

I don't know how long it was after that, but he fell down the stairs at his home and broke his neck. He was going to the restroom and returned. He mistook the basement door for his bedroom, and stepped into the darkness. He lingered for a while after the accident, but could not move. His wife wouldn't let anyone see him due to the risk of pneumonia, but I asked her to tell him that God is in control. I know he was heavily sedated and eventually intubated, but I hope he had enough time to reconsider his position, and to find his rest in the LORD.

I know that God is in control. He uses events and choices to guide his children in being conformed to the image of Christ. Scripture as a whole witnesses to it, if one has the eyes to see it.

However, I wonder if he got past the false teachings of Clark Pinnock and the rest of the "open theist" trash that infiltrates the Church today...I hope so. I think it would be very dark for him if he didn't realize that God was sovereignly operating within his circumstances, and that they had purpose.

My opinion of the writings of Pinnock and other open theists is that they should be used for outhouse toilet paper, if it isn't clear. These false teachings rob believers of the confidence they should have in God's sovereignty and provision.

If God did not allow mankind the freedom of making his own choices as to how he wants to live his life here on earth, Why does Psalms 53:2-3, say that none of mankind would seek him, Did God predestine them not to seek him? I understand the scriptures to teach that God does not leave man a free choice to choose his eternal destination, but I do think they teach that God left them the choice to choose how they want to live their lives while they sojourn here on earth.