The Absence of Free Will

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Whispered

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this is true but they cant admit it. they say gospel is the means by which God save His elect.

problem is again that calvinist cant really preach gospel honestly. they cant say Jesus died for you. because they dont know if you are elect. if they say that they might be lying.
They would be lying.
Because the Calvinist believes Jesus did not die to save those who believe in Him, as the Book of John chapter 3 verse 16 states.
In brief, instead, Calvinism teaches that rather than dying to save whosoever believeth in Him, that Jesus died because He believed in those He predestined to save from Himself. While those He did not elect are to be subject to His judgment of them at the end of days for their being the non-elect. Those not chosen to be saved from the eternal fate of the damned and before the world was created.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Concerning that point in your post.
Launching this query from the standpoint of predestination and the Elect. Why would the horrific suffering Jesus endured prior to the cross and then the suffering on the cross itself be necessary to redeem those God Elected to be saved before the world they would inhabit was created?
The Augustinian view of the Election doctrine not only states that God predestined those whom would be His Elect, saved from their sins and this election occurred prior to the world coming to exist, but also states that to secure that Election by those Elected for His grace, which isn't actually grace when it is predetermined to be bestowed on only a select number of persons, that God divinely bestowed upon those Elect individuals the requisite faith to believe in Jesus so as to be those Elect.

Given both idea's concerning the Elect of God, the standard version wherein God predestined the Elect to receive Salvation knowing they would come to faith prior to their existence, as well as the Augustinian view, when it all comes down to it the foundation principle behind the entire process is, eternal salvation from sin that causes eternal death.

When God predestined that select salvation number to enter into eternal life and prior to the world's creation, why would He need to preach the Salvation doctrine? When before the garden of Eden God had already predetermined who would be saved from sin?
In short, the predestined Elect of God were saved before sin entered the world so as to need saving from that. And the salvation principle was only to be bestowed on those God predetermined to receive it before even the Old Testament came to exist.

What's the purpose of preaching salvation when only those God chose to save are saved?
Teaching all the world , as Jesus said to do and as what is called the great commission, would be pointless when God already knows who are saved. While the ministering of salvation implies anyone can receive Christ as their savior.
In essence, I think I've already answered this question.

One, God is perfectly holy and cannot tolerate any sin.
Two, Adam rebelled against God, and as mankind's corporate head, his sin accrues to all mankind.
Three, each person has sinned personally.
Four, all those who have sinned are under God's wrath and condemnation.
Five, God purposed to save a certain group of people, for the purpose of giving them to his Son, from eternity past.
Six, the way that God's wrath and condemnation of those individuals is dealt with is through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.
Seventh, at the cross, God's perfect justness is satisfied because Jesus bore all their sins, and his perfect love is demonstrated through the fact that God, through the person of Jesus Christ, was willing to suffer for his people.
Eighth, the believer is joined to Christ through faith in real time at the point where God regenerates them and causes them to respond in faith and repentance.
Ninth, believers are fiercely devoted to their Savior, who has reconciled them to God, and to whom they belong.

In short, though, God ordains both means and the end. He ordained that the elect would be saved, and the means is through Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross. These means deal perfectly with all the involved factors.

Salvation is preached to reach the elect. The preacher doesn't know which individuals are elect, and which are not elect.

Additionally, grace doesn't cease to be grace because it isn't extended to everyone. In fact, grace would be obligation if it is extended to everyone. God did not extend physical salvation to the Egyptian overlords, either. Nor did he extend physical salvation to those who drown in the flood. The Ark would not have held the entirety of the population at that time, so it is obvious he never intended to save them. He meant to drown them all, and to reserve a small number as a new humanity. If you read the narrative of Genesis 9, and compare it to Genesis 1, you will see that there is a parallel. God is "starting over" with eight people. Eight is the number of new beginnings..for instance, a Hebrew baby was circumcised at the age of eight days, where he became a "new creation" in a sense, and the resurrection occurred on the "eighth day" (Sunday) and it is the new beginning.

I am not sure why you guys keep asking the same question, as if it is a show-stopper if God uses the means of the gospel to draw the elect to himself and to join them to Christ in space and time. It isn't a show-stopper. You need to understand that God ordains both MEANS and the END.

The means are the events by which the end is brought about.

Now, why don't you answer this question for me?

Why do you guys think God is a dolt who cannot bring about all the purposes that he purposes? He is not a dolt who cannot bring about all the things he purposes. If someone is not saved, it is because God isn't trying to save them. Do you think God is like a man, who cannot bring about his purposes?

I cannot accept a god who is a dolt, and cannot bring about his purposes. Nor do I believe that is the God of the Bible. It is a god that others have created, because their presuppositions are man-centered.

That is why Reformed people focus on God's sovereignty. They have a high view of God and his sovereignty, and a low view of man and his abilities. The view that non-Reformed people have of God makes me retch.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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They would be lying.
Because the Calvinist believes Jesus did not die to save those who believe in Him, as the Book of John chapter 3 verse 16 states.
In brief, instead, Calvinism teaches that rather than dying to save whosoever believeth in Him, that Jesus died because He believed in those He predestined to save from Himself. While those He did not elect are to be subject to His judgment of them at the end of days for their being the non-elect. Those not chosen to be saved from the eternal fate of the damned and before the world was created.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 teaches that all who believe will be saved.

Reformed people believe this totally. The issue is, what brings about belief?

We believe that regeneration, or being born again, occurs and causes belief and repentance.

So, there is no issue with this verse and what Reformed theology teaches. The issue is what causes belief.

And, the Bible itself teaches election. You CANNOT get past this. You CANNOT get past the fact that God chooses, either.

The way you try to do it is to claim that God chooses those who choose him, but this is, in essence, a claim that God doesn't choose.

I must conclude that those who deny election are simply deceiving themselves and don't believe what the Bible says.

Or, perhaps they don't read the Bible. Take your pick.
 

Whispered

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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 teaches that all who believe will be saved.

Reformed people believe this totally. The issue is, what brings about belief?

We believe that regeneration, or being born again, occurs and causes belief and repentance.

So, there is no issue with this verse and what Reformed theology teaches. The issue is what causes belief.

And, the Bible itself teaches election. You CANNOT get past this. You CANNOT get past the fact that God chooses, either.

The way you try to do it is to claim that God chooses those who choose him, but this is, in essence, a claim that God doesn't choose.

I must conclude that those who deny election are simply deceiving themselves and don't believe what the Bible says.

Or, perhaps they don't read the Bible. Take your pick.
Sarcasm does not prove your point. It actually lends to the impression you're not all that secure in it. And it is not just your behavior that is worthy of that observation. Others here , many who appear to identify with your Calvinist structure of belief, seem to resort to the same manner of speech when someone disagrees with them.

"Whosoever", precludes the one inferring its meaning, exclusive designation for salvation.

  1. Further, Calvinism's TULIP principle is illogical from the T. Especially as pertains to the idea of exclusive election prior to the world's creation.
When the individual to whom the principle applies, which necessarily includes those called, the Elect, is Totally depraved, they are incapable of comprehending God's call to righteousness and repentance of their depraved nature.
Depraved , adjective
corrupt, wicked, or perverted.

Totally , adverb
wholly; entirely; completely.


Actually, when God our Father is the Creator of all things as we're taught in the Book of Colossians chapter 1 and particularly verse 16,
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him, it then becomes understandable that our Omniscient Omni-Present Omnipotent Father would know for whom the Good News would resonate as divine truth. And conversely , would also know whom among the human population throughout time would not hearken to the leading unto repentance.

However, for man to interpret God predetermined and named a select number whom He would save from eternal damnation before the property leading to damnation came into the world through one man, that then makes God's Omniscient , Omni-Present, Omnipotent character appear to be incompatible with Omni-Benevolence.
Calvin's teaching as well as Augustine's , wherein Augustine went so far as to say not only did God predetermine whom He would save before something to be saved from entered the world, but he also imbued his chosen one's whom he predetermined to save with the ability to repent so as to adhere to that plan, make this life and all who are in it mindless pawns in a celestial game of bloody chess.
If one believes in the Calvinist doctrine in any form. And to do so necessarily must abdicate logic when realizing the import of the first letter of the TULIP principle that encapsulates the entire doctrine.

Now, some, because I have traveled much and engaged in discussions with many people of my faith, believe that it is God's right to create such a game because God is the Creator of all things and all things are then of God, as the Colossians passage informs. Further, many have pointed out, if we recall the trials of Job we realize that even God's adversary, ha Satan, can do nothing without God's permission. Including causing the death of the immediate family of Job. His wife and children. All so as to test the faith of one man.

However, investing the Calvinist formula in that parable of Job, which occurred under the Hebrew faith's principles, Job would have already been one of God's Elect. Therefore, he would have been impervious , according to Augstine's doctrine, to the leading to lose faith when his faith was God given and thus an innate part of his being. And of course, God's Omniscience , as ha Satan would well have known, insured ha Satan would lose the wager he proposed to God from the outset.

God's Sovereignty is real. However, Calvinism and doctrines that copy much of its template, manipulate that characteristic of my Father into one of a Sadistic Ogre that creates man, predetermines man's fall by planting one tree Omniscience knew would be eaten from, so as to have entered into the world the characteristic opposing divine law, so as to expel from paradise the first humans created that they enter into a paradigm of damnation first and foremost, to then generations later necessarily have to navigate properly according to divine laws that would permit them to return to their divine state, if they had properly navigated the fallen world so as to warrant God's forgiveness, and thus return to the innocent pure sinless condition they'd previously enjoyed briefly in life, only this would occur after they were dead.

Have you ever seen that marble game? It's a small plastic framed game wherein it looks like pinball, but it has shapes and sizes of barriers throughout the game surface. And the little silver marble must be manipulated by that one holding the small frame that is the game, so that the marble makes its way through requisite paths in order to accrue points and thus win the game.

That's the analogy Calvinism exports. Only that poor human that is the silver ball unbeknownst to them have already been determined to either navigate those pathways correctly so as to win the challenge of rolling across the board. Or, not.

Calvinism also forgets to mention one thing.

For someone to accept Calvinism for themselves as a doctrine of truth, they would necessarily have to agree that Jesus' command to his Apostles that they go forth into all the world and minister the good news was not necessary. When the sinners of the world in mass are already either saved or damned prior to this world being created, there is no need for them to come unto repentance, nor hear the Gospel. Because the greatest power in all creation anywhere has already saved them or damned them and before He then, because this is requisite for the Calvinist template to exist, has created the cause for them to first and foremost come to be damned or separated from God the Father; sin.

For without sin, there is no thing any one need to be saved from.

This means, the Book of John chapter 3: 16 is a misnomer. Whosoever, cannot apply at all ever when God has predetermined only the Good News only resonates with those designated to receive grace. And that makes grace not a free gift but rather a preconceived appointment.

John Calvin was from a paternal line that was of note and prosperous in France. It makes sense he'd create God in his image and likeness.
That does not mean God fits that framework.
And woe to those who believe God created man as a plaything for his whim of saving or damning according to His divine world before the game, life on this planet, began. Because the tenets of Calvinism make my Father out to be that which believers in Calvinism's proffer something all but its defined Elect need saving from.
 

Whispered

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I
That is why Reformed people focus on God's sovereignty. They have a high view of God and his sovereignty, and a low view of man and his abilities. The view that non-Reformed people have of God makes me retch.
That speak a great deal about what takes up residence within you and due to your devotion to the doctrine Calvin invented.
No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in union with us, and his love is made perfect in us. We are sure that we live in union with God and that he lives in union with us, because he has given us his Spirit. (1 John 4:12-13)
 

UnitedWithChrist

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There are two views concerning "free will":

1) freedom of inclination
2) libertarian free will

I would hold the first view, which indicates that the person makes choices that are consistent with his nature.

If anyone wants a good explanation of the two positions, here are a few good audio sermons by Brian Borgman on this topic

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=518101933226
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52810135573

Predestination and Free Will Part 1
Predestination and Free Will Part 2

Brian is a very clear speaker, and his thinking is well-structured.

My view is that Semi-Pelagians and their teachings have fooled a LOT of Christians in this regard, and as a result, they are very boastful and prideful, and not aware of the depths of deception in regards to this topic.

And, humanism forms the presuppositions that support the libertarian free will view.
 

Whispered

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As pertains to Reformed Theology, of which Calvinism is that which is largely under discussion on these boards, and as pertains to its TULIP formula , there is no free will.
When Predeterminism is extant in any faith doctrine, that which teaches God predetermined whom He would apply His grace to so as to imbue them with faith and then save them from the fallen condition He prescribed for all of the human race, the human free will, or conscious choice, is void.
God chose and arranges all.

In fact, it can go so far as to say, not even Adam nor Eve posessed free will in the garden in that the knowledge tree was the co-factor for human kind. Beginning on that road of sin which God had predetermined when prior to creation of all things He predestined certain humans for His saving grace. Something that would not have been a factor if something to be saved from was not preconceived by God before what Genesis calls, in the beginning. Or, creation.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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As pertains to Reformed Theology, of which Calvinism is that which is largely under discussion on these boards, and as pertains to its TULIP formula , there is no free will.
When Predeterminism is extant in any faith doctrine, that which teaches God predetermined whom He would apply His grace to so as to imbue them with faith and then save them from the fallen condition He prescribed for all of the human race, the human free will, or conscious choice, is void.
God chose and arranges all.

In fact, it can go so far as to say, not even Adam nor Eve posessed free will in the garden in that the knowledge tree was the co-factor for human kind. Beginning on that road of sin which God had predetermined when prior to creation of all things He predestined certain humans for His saving grace. Something that would not have been a factor if something to be saved from was not preconceived by God before what Genesis calls, in the beginning. Or, creation.
Adam and Eve had "original righteousness" and they were free to make the appropriate decision. It was only after they sinned that their libertarian free will was lost.

This is consistent with Reformed theology. God is not the author of sin. Of course, he knew they would sin and it never caught him by surprise, and in fact works toward his purpose of fully displaying his attributes, including his justness and his mercy on the Cross.

As I have warned folks, beware of getting your understanding of others' views from this forum. I see massive distortions on a regular basis. I'm not sure if it's due to repeating others' distortions or what. Some sectors of Christianity are nothing but a big "telephone game".
 

ForestGreenCook

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Actually, the concept of Leviticus 16 affirms limited atonement.

The atonement ONLY APPLIED TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL.

Therefore, it was SPECIFIC.

It did not apply to the Gentile nations all around them.

So if you guys want to bring up Leviticus 16, you are actually PROVING my point that the atonement is particular, or limited. It only covered a specific set of individuals, the nation of Israel.

So, there is precedence to believe that the atonement only covers the Church, those that have been SPECIFICALLY GIVEN to the SON by the Father.

“And you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins” (Matt. 1:21)

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people” (Luke 1:68)

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. . . . I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep” (John 10:11, 14–15).

“The Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Matt. 20:28)

“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” (Matt. 26:28).

Notice that Jesus died for HIS PEOPLE and he died for the MANY not the ALL.

Only specific individuals have been given to the Son by the Father, and they ALL COME TO HIM, AND WILL ALL BE RAISED UP (GLORIFIED) ON THE LAST DAY.

John 6:37 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out (ESV)

John 6:39 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. (ESV)

In fact, the only reason someone believes is because they are one of the sheep that the Father has given the Son:

John 10:26-28 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. (ESV)

Unlike "free-willer" theology teaches, the reason individuals believe is because they are already given to the Son by the Father.

Now, I don't deny that belief and repentance are the response of all those who are saved, but the question is, what is the cause? The cause is 1) those who are saved have already been given to the Son by the Father and 2) regeneration occurs and faith and repentance are the response of the regenerated person.

So, you can continue whining and slandering all you want...the Reformed position is biblical, whether you like it or not, and the free-willer position is GARBAGE.

Clasp your hands tightly over your eyes when you read Ephesians 1, 2, John 6, 10, and most of the book of Romans. Perhaps you can peak through the cracks a little bit and still maintain your "free-will" position, but you can't do it very much. Otherwise you might have to confront the fact that your free-will, self-glorifying version of Christianity is ill-informed.
All Israel is not of Israel. In order to understand that phrase you have to understand that there is the nation of Israel and there is a Jacob Israel. God is the God of Jacob Israel and not the God of the nation of Israel. The nation of Israel in the beginning was his favored nation, but he turned from them to the gentile nation. Jacob Israel is his elect.
 

Whispered

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Adam and Eve had "original righteousness" and they were free to make the appropriate decision. It was only after they sinned that their libertarian free will was lost.

This is consistent with Reformed theology. God is not the author of sin. Of course, he knew they would sin and it never caught him by surprise, and in fact works toward his purpose of fully displaying his attributes, including his justness and his mercy on the Cross.

As I have warned folks, beware of getting your understanding of others' views from this forum. I see massive distortions on a regular basis. I'm not sure if it's due to repeating others' distortions or what. Some sectors of Christianity are nothing but a big "telephone game".
You likely do not realize you are warning people to beware of getting their understanding from your views, when you attempt to besmirch other members knowledge of scriptures.

God is sovereign. The Bible tells us that we do not actually have what is defined as free will.

Reprobation
Reprobation, in Christian theology, is a doctrine of the Bible found in many passages of scripture such as Romans 1:20-28, Proverbs 1:23-33, John 12:37-41, Hebrews 6:4-8 etc. which teaches that a person can reject the gospel to a point where God in turn rejects them and curses their conscience to do unnatural and abominable things. The English word reprobate is from the Latin root probare, and thus derived from the Latin, reprobatus, the opposite of approbatus.

The Book of Proverbs chapter 21 verse 1 – the king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, he turns it wherever he [the Lord] will.

Moses realized this when God was to send him that mission back to Egypt so as to implore Pharaoh to let God's people go. Prior to Moses leaving God told him that He would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not consent and free the Hebrews.
And so it was. And all the plagues that fell upon Egypt fell due to God's will to make it so.


St.Augustine wrote that man in light of God' sovereignty has no free will. As did Martin Luther, Thomas Aquinas, and of course John Calvin.

Doctrine on Original Sin

Augustine's theological views in the early middle era were revolutionary, perhaps none so much as his doctrine on original sin which is still used by the Catholic faith today.


"Saint Augustine taught that Adam, before the Fall, had had free will, and could have abstained from sin. But as he and Eve ate the apple, corruption entered into them, and descended to all their posterity, none of whom can, of their own power, abstain from sin. Only God's grace enables men to be virtuous. Since we all inherit Adam's sin, we all deserve eternal damnation. All who die unbaptized, even infants, will go to hell and suffer unending torment. We have no reason to complain of this, since we are all wicked. (In the Confessions, the Saint enumerates the crimes of which he was guilty in the cradle.) But by God's free grace certain people, among those who have been baptized, are chosen to go to heaven; these are the elect. They do not go to heaven because they are good; we are all totally depraved, except in so far as God's grace, which is only bestowed on the elect, enables us to be otherwise. No reason can be given why some are saved and the rest damned; this is due to God's unmotivated choice. Damnation proves God's justice; salvation His mercy. Both equally display His goodness."[11]

This double predestination (i.e., the idea that despite free-will and grace, God had already decided who would be saved and who would be damned) was not accepted by the Catholic church; but was later taken up and elaborated upon by the protestant reformer John Calvin.

In summary Augustine believed that no one would be saved unless they freely accepted baptism, and thus became a member of the church. He believed that those who are saved had been predetermined. God, to Augustine, was secretly just, and justly secret. This remains an anomaly in his teaching when compared with his views on free will."

Thomas Aquinas, “Today many thoroughly-instructed Roman Catholics may be surprised to learn that the same appalling doctrine of Divine predestination has been, and presumably still is, an essential element in their faith. Thus Aquinas' Summa Theologiae contains a Question of 'Predestination' in which the Angelic Doctor lays it down that:
As men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away [... and] so He also not only gave things their operative powers when they were first created, but is also always the cause of these in things. Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop. Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause." "Human Freewill and Divine Predestination" by Dr Antony Flew



"Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation ..." Thomas Aquinas



The Book of Ecclesiastes chapter 7 and verse 14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider; God has made the one as well as the other, so that mortals may not find out anything that will come after them.


"A leading feature in the teaching of the Reformers of the sixteenth century, especially in the case of Luther and Calvin, was the denial of free will. Picking out from the Scriptures, and particularly from St. Paul, the texts which emphasized the importance and efficacy of grace, the all-ruling providence of God, His decrees of election or predestination, and the feebleness of man, they drew the conclusion that the human will, instead of being master of its own acts, is rigidly predetermined in all its choices throughout life. As a consequence, man is predestined before his birth to eternal punishment or reward in such fashion that he never can have had any real free-power over his own fate. In his controversy with Erasmus, who defended free will, Luther frankly stated that free will is a fiction, a name which covers no reality, for it is not in man's power to think well or ill, since all events occur by necessity. In reply to Erasmus's "De Libero Arbitrio", he published his own work, "De Servo Arbitrio", glorying in emphasizing man's helplessness and slavery. The predestination of all future human acts by God is so interpreted as to shut out any possibility of freedom. An inflexible internal necessity turns man's will whithersoever God preordains. With Calvin, God's preordination is, if possible, even more fatal to free will. Man can perform no sort of good act unless necessitated to it by God's grace which it is impossible for him to resist. It is absurd to speak of the human will "co-operating" with God's grace, for this would imply that man could resist the grace of God. The will of God is the very necessity of things. It is objected that in this case God sometimes imposes impossible commands. Both Calvin and Luther reply that the commands of God show us not what we can do but what we ought to do.” "
Source:"Free Will" by M. Maher (1909)



"In 1595 the Lambeth Articles asserted that 'God from eternity hath predestinated certain men unto life; certain he hath reprobated.' In 1618 the Synod of Dort decided in favor of this view. It condemned the remonstrants against it, and treated them with such severity, that many of them had to flee to foreign countries. Even in the Church of England, as is manifested by its seventeenth Article of Faith, these doctrines have found favor.” ""History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science" by John William Draper (1881)
 

ForestGreenCook

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Like I said, this is a waste of time.

I already told you that God regenerates the person, and they respond in faith and repentance because they have been given a new heart.

Of course all who are saved believe. I have never claimed otherwise, and neither does any Reformed person I know. The issue is what CAUSES faith, and that is regeneration.

Yet, you continue to distort the position, either 1) because you don't understand it or 2) you intentionally are lying and distorting it.

Regarding 2 Cor 5, the letters to Corinth are addressed to believers, not unbelievers. Consider the context.

You really think everyone is already reconciled to God from the moment of Christ's sacrifice forward? If so, then apparently you believe they are already saved. Well, that's the logic you applied to me earlier with regards to Reformed theology anyways. You said something like I believe the gospel isn't necessary because I believe in election. I could say the same thing about your position if I wanted to misrepresent you. You would cry foul, yet you use the exact same logic with regards to me.

I will also note that you have basically called Reformed people individuals who don't know their Bible, so examine the beam in your own eye before you call someone else arrogant.

Regarding whether Reformed theology is philosophical, I believe non-Reformed theology is philosophical. The idea that a hardened heart can accept Christ in faith and repentance is ludicrous. Such individuals are rebellious and God-hating. That is the state of the fallen nature. In fact, they are spiritually dead and can't make themselves alive again.

I would suggest reading Ephesians 2:1-10 carefully..every word..it is totally consistent with Reformed theology.

Decisional regeneration is a bunch of free-willer nonsense. In other words, you decide to be regenerated. A heart hardened in sin who hates God decides to be regenerated lol. It was popularized by Charles Finney in the USA, though, and because so many Pentecostals and charismatics and general baptists believe elements of his Semi-Pelagian teachings, it has become the norm simply by proliferation amongst Pentecostals and charismatics.
I hope you haven't given up on me also. I admire the fact that you have said that you came to believe the way you do by comparing scripture with scripture and have not relied on other men's interpretations of the scriptures. I am in agreement with you on most of your statements and beliefs. I do have some questions that I have ask you and have not received an answer, as of yet. I realize you are very busy with answering the "eternal salvation by works" people, but I hope you can find time to deal with my questions.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I hope you haven't given up on me also. I admire the fact that you have said that you came to believe the way you do by comparing scripture with scripture and have not relied on other men's interpretations of the scriptures. I am in agreement with you on most of your statements and beliefs. I do have some questions that I have ask you and have not received an answer, as of yet. I realize you are very busy with answering the "eternal salvation by works" people, but I hope you can find time to deal with my questions.
I'm not sure which questions you asked..I answered a few.

Sometimes I have quoted two different study Bibles because their answers are essentially the same I would give, because we come from a similar perspective.

I learned the essence of Reformed theology before I became a believer, simply from reading the Bible. I then got involved with a cultic group that I would characterize as Arminian, or almost Pelagian. Then, about 10 years later, I came to understand justification by faith alone, and eternal security. Five years ago, I came into contact with a Reformed brother who taught me a lot. He didn't exactly teach me word for word, but he referred me to portions of Scripture as well as videos, etcetera, from sound teachers.

I don't mind your questions and I don't care if you ask them. I am getting bombarded with a lot of replies on the threads that I did on Reformed theology, though.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I already referred to two sermons where Brian Borgman identifies the issues with libertarian free will theology, which is discussed on this thread.

Clark Pinnock and various other professing Christian theologians have been trying to teach this to Christians.

In his second sermon, Brian lists out about six problems with this libertarian free will theology. You can listen to the message yourself if you are interested.

He refers to a book by R.K. McGregor Write concerning this topic, called No Place for Sovereignty.

Here is a link to the book on Amazon:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0830818...olid=1S9TZWBMGW5BG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

The book basically explains the issues with free will theology. Whether you are Reformed or not, you should be concerned about the logical implications of this theology.

One example is that it is utterly inconsistent with free will theology to pray for the salvation of another, because the adherents don't believe that God changes the will and disposition of the individual.

However, if you want a list of the implications, listen to the second audio on Predestination and Free Will.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52810135573

Realize, too, that open theism is often a part of their belief system. They realize that logically their view of determinism is inconsistent with God's foreknowledge. If God knows something is going to happen, then this knowledge cannot be proven wrong by the person making another choice besides the one God knows they will make. Therefore, many of them adopt open theism and claim that God doesn't know the future. This is plainly false as God is omniscient and is not limited by time and space. Additionally he definitely knows the future (Isaiah 46:9-10).

The view of libertarian free will also poses difficulty for biblical inerrancy. If God doesn't exert any influence on a person's decisions, then how can inerrancy be maintained? At any point, the person could have decided to write something else.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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For instance, here's an example of one of the with free will theology.

Free will theology claims that God does not issue "oughts" unless man has the ability to obey.

This is not true. God issues commands to the individual to display, to them, their utter helplessness before God to obey him, and to expose their evil nature, and to encourage their dependence upon him.

God says to be perfect in the Sermon on the Mount. No man is perfect. Some will pretend that they are perfectly sinless, but they are engaging in self-deception or lies.

Issuing this command tells me that God expects this behavior from me. If I am honest, I will realize that I am not perfect. I may start trying to behave in a perfect manner, but ultimately I will crash and burn. That forces me to admit my helplessness, and to realize my utter dependence upon God's grace and his transforming, sanctifying power.

So, God does issue "oughts" that man cannot perform, for the purpose of engendering dependence upon him and his grace, and to point out man's natural inability.

That is why free will theology, which proclaims libertarian free will, is fundamentally faulty and based on humanistic reasoning. Some are more extreme than others. Clark Pinnock is amongst the most extreme, as well as Pelagians like Jesse Morrell and Jed Smock.

It is the religion of the natural man, who has faith in his reasoning and in his abilities. Christianity is the opposite. It is God-focused. Unfortunately, due to the influences of Charles Finney and similar heretics, this theology has invaded the Christian church in varying degrees.

Another issue is it's optimistic view of man's abilities. Man has a fallen nature, with a heart that is ruled by ungodly passions. Because of this, he cannot rule himself. In fact, he is a slave to those passions. I presented a lot of Scriptures in regards to this on the thread I created on total depravity.

I will mention more problems with the theology as I go along.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Problems with free will theology and their libertarian free will stance (LFW):

1. LFW creates a problem because, just as we freely believe, the believer is freely able to disbelieve, so there is no
grounds for eternal security. Those who hold both LFW and eternal security are inconsistent.
2. LFW has issues with individuals in heaven, too. If believers on earth can choose to disbelieve, then so can believers in heaven.
3. LFW leads to denials of God's omniscience and omnipotence. LFW leads to open theism and process theology (God is learning).
If God infallibly knows the future, this creates issues with LFW. Anything God knows about the future cannot be proven wrong by
an outcome he didn't anticipate. Therefore those choices are fixed. So, free will guys deny open theism and process theology
to be consistent.
4. LFW affects prayer. No free-willer can consistently ask God to change someone's heart. God isn't allowed in their theology to
do something within a person's heart in their theology, because that would override their free will with an undue influence. This includes praying for another's salvation.
5. LFW undermines predictive prophecy. God has to control many details to bring about prophecies. Example: Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Lots of minor events were required to get Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem. God controlled all of these details, including the census
decree. Another example: Cyrus sends the Jews back to Judea. Many events occurred to cause this.
6. LFW undermines the inspiration of Scripture. God moved men to write down what he wanted them to, in detail. This required God
affecting all of the choices involved in the text of the Scripture. In their view, the writers got very, very, very lucky to get everything in
the exact way that he wanted it, because these choices were not affected by God in any way.

Man does not operate independently of God. He does operate in a manner consistent with compatibilism, though.

These points are a rough summary of a portion of Brian Borgman's sermon, which quotes the Free Will Theology book by R.K. McGregor Wright, called No Place for Sovereignty: The Problem with Free Will Theism. I am sure I didn't convey them as well as the actual sermon so I would recommend it instead.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52810135573
 

ForestGreenCook

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I'm not sure which questions you asked..I answered a few.

Sometimes I have quoted two different study Bibles because their answers are essentially the same I would give, because we come from a similar perspective.

I learned the essence of Reformed theology before I became a believer, simply from reading the Bible. I then got involved with a cultic group that I would characterize as Arminian, or almost Pelagian. Then, about 10 years later, I came to understand justification by faith alone, and eternal security. Five years ago, I came into contact with a Reformed brother who taught me a lot. He didn't exactly teach me word for word, but he referred me to portions of Scripture as well as videos, etcetera, from sound teachers.

I don't mind your questions and I don't care if you ask them. I am getting bombarded with a lot of replies on the threads that I did on Reformed theology, though.
One of the things that I was not clear on your explanation was on Romans 10:1-2-3, You had stated that Paul was upset with the fact that the NATION of Israel would not come unto a knowledge of the Gospel in order to be saved eternally. I am of the understanding that Israel in this verse has reference to Jacob, as Israel, and not the nation of Israel. My understanding is that they were already eternally saved, by evidence of having a zeal of God. I equate them as being in the same position as most on this forum who are of the elect, but are believing in a false doctrine of eternal salvation, by their good works. There is a deliverance (salvation) when an elect child of God comes unto a knowledge of the truth of the Gospel. This deliverance is not eternal deliverance, because they already have that security, but it is a deliverance that they receive at the moment they receive and understand the knowledge. Just as you, yourself, through your study of the scriptures came to a knowledge of the truth of the Gospel. Do you understand what I am trying to convey to you? I believe the elect children of God are missing out on a full understanding of the Gospel by not taking in consideration that a lot of scriptures about ISRAEL has reference to Jacob's name being changed to ISRAEL. My understanding of the two gates mentioned in Matthew are along this line of thinking in that the people that go into both gates are the elect, the wide gate=false doctrines due to a lack of knowledge and the straight gate being those who have been revealed the true knowledge of the Gospel.
 

Whispered

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www.christiancourier.com
Calvinist quotes regarding free will.

Calvinism and Free Will
Here are some Calvinist quotes about Free will:
Free will is nonsense (Spurgeon, Free Will a Slave, 3).​
Free will is the invention of man, instigated by the devil (David Wilmoth, The Baptist Examiner, September 16, 1989, 5).​
Free will makes man his own savior and his own god (Tom Ross, Abandoned Truth, 56).​
The heresy of free will dethrones God and enthrones man. … The ideas of free grace and free will are diametrically opposed. All who are strict advocates of free will are strangers to the grace of the sovereign God (W. E. Best, Free Grace Versus Free Will, 35, 43).​
To affirm that [man] is a free moral agent is to deny that he is totally depraved (Pink, Sovereignty of God, 138).​
In matters pertaining to his salvation, the unregenerate man is not at liberty to choose between good and evil, but only to choose between greater and lesser evil, which is not properly free will… As the bird with a broken wing is ‘free’ to fly but not able, so the natural man is free to come to God but not able (Boettner, Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, 62).​
Inasmuch as Adam’s offspring are born with sinful natures, they do not have the ability to choose spiritual good over evil. Consequently, man’s will is no longer free (i.e., free from the dominion of sin) as Adam’s will was free before the Fall. Instead, man’s will, as the result of inherited depravity, is in bondage to his sinful nature (Steele & Thomas, Five Points of Calvinism, 19).​
Monergism

Monergism is the view within Christian theology which holds that God works through the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, regardless of the individual's cooperation.....
 
P

pottersclay

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Free will.....is there such a thing?...or do we understand it?

The Lord prepared the way we should go and cursed the road we should not. The way that seems right only leads to destruction.
Guess you can call it free will some would say a no brainier. But we all traveled down that well beaten path of self.
But then again the Lord said choose. Some don't even know there is a choice. There enters grace.....God's richest at Christ expence.
The love of God comes in many forms. What speaks to the heart only God knows. Grace what a blessing.
 

CharliRenee

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I struggle with this, and ask the Lord to help me to understand. I so do not want to be the one who constantly seeks and never finds the truth, but bear with me as i express my delimma

Ok so we see from the old testament and new testament that God is a God of patterns, right? We see that He chose individuals over and over and even a nation of ppl, correct? We even see that in the new testament, He chose Mary, Paul and the 12 disciples. He even chose the man of perdition to fulfill the scripture.

So taking the side of no free will is not a huge leap, especially when you consider the verses of foreknowledge, predestination and election. < I would say they fall into Gods perspective (as my finite mind interprets the scriptures).

So that all has to harmonize with the choice which we are clearly given from the beginning, the choice to take that perverbial bite into crime... the tree of knowledge and evil. The choice to pick who we will serve.... on and on.

Choice given makes more sense, otherwise, what's the point.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32.

So I think it is both, He foreknew, and predestined and yet He calls all people to Himself...

How that is possible, I am still not sure. I mean does my even considering a middle ground break the law of non contradiction?