The Absence of Free Will
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Nope I was saying that in your belief the only consequence of sin is hurt fellowship but that contradicts the scriptures I posted about deliberately sinning and abiding in Christ.
Nope not necessarily. Every Christian I know fails to sin atleast once or more a day.
John 6:38
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
I'm not seeing the relevance of John 6:38.
Nope not necessarily. Every Christian I know fails to sin atleast once or more a day.
John 6:38
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
I'm not seeing the relevance of John 6:38.
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I like to think lf the brain as an instrument to enable us to function within this physical environment. It is responsive to the environment and helps us to function here. However, mind is not necessarily equated with just a physical brain anymore than a television set is equated with one channel. There are other frequencies but the brain keeps us largely locked into channel earth. Under certain circumstances we get to experience the more. (Prayer?). However we clearly experience a non material aspect of mind every day. A thought or image is not in the brain, or normal time and space. So when i picture an apple in my mind that image is not in the physical world! It is in the realm of psyche. It is so normal that we don't think how amazing that is!
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Our minds are what carries on to the other side. We cant open the brain and see someone's memories as those are related to mind also. Mind and soul are in one essence. This is the image of God we was created in. This is why mental health fails so much as Drs and psychologists fail to look at the cause and only medicate the symptoms. The cause is often in the mind and soul connection which is where sin and the sins of others often do the most damage.
The soulish being of our nature is what separates us from the all carnal and instinct nature of the animals and separates us from a all material puppetry of chemical and electrical responses of just the brain. Nature may cause reactions but due to the soul the supernatural can cause reactions to. As the mind is beyond natural and the Spirit being also supernatural resides in such a place.
The soulish being of our nature is what separates us from the all carnal and instinct nature of the animals and separates us from a all material puppetry of chemical and electrical responses of just the brain. Nature may cause reactions but due to the soul the supernatural can cause reactions to. As the mind is beyond natural and the Spirit being also supernatural resides in such a place.
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Your sarcasm is proof of quite a bit when I have not done anything to warrant such a remark.
Furthermore, if you are wrong in your interpretation of any scripture and resort to such behavior in order to detract from that and think to impugn those who are correct in pointing out your error, it would be you and your interpretation of a given scripture that is in error. Not the Holy Spirit of God which is devoid of arrogance and pride in such matters.
Furthermore, if you are wrong in your interpretation of any scripture and resort to such behavior in order to detract from that and think to impugn those who are correct in pointing out your error, it would be you and your interpretation of a given scripture that is in error. Not the Holy Spirit of God which is devoid of arrogance and pride in such matters.
Great post.
I wonder how many people were led to be frightened as new Christians or those seeking after Christ by the reading of the Book of Romans chapter 8 and verse 29? "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."
To read it in Fundamentalist terms it would appear to tell us God knew and predetermined whom He would save so as to become Christ like.
This is what FGC argues.
If Calvin's TULIP principle is correct then the T, Total Depravity, would mean that the person being totally depraved and a sinner incapable of good, then that same person would be incapable of remorse or repentance.
Furthermore, to believe God predestined only an elect few to come into His Kingdom as the Chosen, we would then notice that ideology can never speak of our faith or the fact that we would need come to believe in Christ and that then being the reason the Father predetermined those whom He would save. God believed in those chosen few. There is no scripture that would qualify to be added to that TULIP formula that would in turn report those predetermined by a greater power are expected to believe in Christ .
This is why Calvinism fails. It makes God out to be two sided. One side is not even benevolent when that side as creator of all things predestined all the world's events with the foreknowledge no matter how many people are born , there would be only those select number He would save from what He predestined as the fate of those not saved.
And in that sense, it would mean He predestined the fate of those whom he would not know as His elect and as such having foreknowledge, not only created Hell to receive them at the end of days, but knew precisely whom would enter that eternity.
What if the truth is, God can be nothing but omniscient being all that exist is His creation. And yet the Elect, for centuries, has been misunderstood? And what it really intends to report, if scriptures are read as God intends, is that when we are referred to as the Elect of God it is because, picture political election process here to get the picture, we chose Him because His spirit within us, as it exists in all He has created, as we're told in the Book of Psalms chapter 33, compels our hungry spirit tired of this sinful world's machinations seeks the light? His light.
This then would make God not a sadistic puppetmaster as Calvin imagined Him to be. But rather, comports with an all knowing Creator who sent Himself as His only begotten son into this world so that all who believe in Him should not perish in their sins but rather receive His free gift of irrevocable grace and have immortal life.
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You speak often of the harmony of scripture. Yet to make your point about God only having chosen certain people to be saved you excerpt singular scriptures from different books so as to make that point.
The harmony of that Book of John and chapter 6 refutes your assertion of the certain one's chosen to be saved and it being those one's whom Jesus was sent do die for. And how is that refutation achieved? By Jesus precious words themselves in that same chapter. That whole chapter. Rather than just one verse that does not paint the full picture.
One does not gaze upon a painted masterpiece of a great master and say of it, that is a great masterpiece because one corner of the canvas is judged great.
Nor can one who gazes upon the masterpiece of God's word to the world be treated that same way. By gazing upon one verse so as to claim it speaks in its entirity of God's entire purpose for Jesus.
I have bolded the text for context that includes the verse 38 that you excerpted. This entire chapter is important. That bold part further refutes the claim Jesus died only for those God gave him. When "everyone" is referred to by Jesus, "the elect predetermined minority" , ceases to exist.
The harmony of that Book of John and chapter 6 refutes your assertion of the certain one's chosen to be saved and it being those one's whom Jesus was sent do die for. And how is that refutation achieved? By Jesus precious words themselves in that same chapter. That whole chapter. Rather than just one verse that does not paint the full picture.
One does not gaze upon a painted masterpiece of a great master and say of it, that is a great masterpiece because one corner of the canvas is judged great.
Nor can one who gazes upon the masterpiece of God's word to the world be treated that same way. By gazing upon one verse so as to claim it speaks in its entirity of God's entire purpose for Jesus.
I have bolded the text for context that includes the verse 38 that you excerpted. This entire chapter is important. That bold part further refutes the claim Jesus died only for those God gave him. When "everyone" is referred to by Jesus, "the elect predetermined minority" , ceases to exist.
The Book of John chapter 6
6 After these things Jesus went away to the other side of the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. 2 And a great multitude followed him, because they beheld the signs which he did on them that were sick. 3 And Jesus went up into the mountain, and there he sat with his disciples. 4 Now the passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand. 5 Jesus therefore lifting up his eyes, and seeing that a great multitude cometh unto him, saith unto Philip, Whence are we to buy [a]bread, that these may eat? 6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. 7 Philip answered him, Two hundred [b]shillings’ worth of [c]bread is not sufficient for them, that every one may take a little. 8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, saith unto him, 9 There is a lad here, who hath five barley loaves, and two fishes: but what are these among so many? 10 Jesus said, Make the people sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. 11 Jesus therefore took the loaves; and having given thanks, he distributed to them that were set down; likewise also of the fishes as much as they would. 12 And when they were filled, he saith unto his disciples, Gather up the broken pieces which remain over, that nothing be lost. 13 So they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with broken pieces from the five barley loaves, which remained over unto them that had eaten. 14 When therefore the people saw the [d]sign which he did, they said, This is of a truth the prophet that cometh into the world.
15 Jesus therefore perceiving that they were about to come and take him by force, to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain himself alone.
16 And when evening came, his disciples went down unto the sea; 17 and they entered into a boat, and were going over the sea unto Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them. 18 And the sea was rising by reason of a great wind that blew. 19 When therefore they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they behold Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the boat: and they were afraid. 20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. 21 They were willing therefore to receive him into the boat: and straightway the boat was at the land whither they were going.
22 On the morrow the multitude that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other [e]boat there, save one, and that Jesus entered not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples went away alone 23 (howbeit there came [f]boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks): 24 when the multitude therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they themselves got into the [g]boats, and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? 26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye ate of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. 28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom [h]he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He [i]gave them bread out of heaven to eat. 32 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 They said therefore unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not. 37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and [j]I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of heaven? 43 Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, [k]And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which cometh down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove one with another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. 54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is [l]meat indeed, and my blood is [m]drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever. 59 These things said he in [n]the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
6 After these things Jesus went away to the other side of the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. 2 And a great multitude followed him, because they beheld the signs which he did on them that were sick. 3 And Jesus went up into the mountain, and there he sat with his disciples. 4 Now the passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand. 5 Jesus therefore lifting up his eyes, and seeing that a great multitude cometh unto him, saith unto Philip, Whence are we to buy [a]bread, that these may eat? 6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. 7 Philip answered him, Two hundred [b]shillings’ worth of [c]bread is not sufficient for them, that every one may take a little. 8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, saith unto him, 9 There is a lad here, who hath five barley loaves, and two fishes: but what are these among so many? 10 Jesus said, Make the people sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. 11 Jesus therefore took the loaves; and having given thanks, he distributed to them that were set down; likewise also of the fishes as much as they would. 12 And when they were filled, he saith unto his disciples, Gather up the broken pieces which remain over, that nothing be lost. 13 So they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with broken pieces from the five barley loaves, which remained over unto them that had eaten. 14 When therefore the people saw the [d]sign which he did, they said, This is of a truth the prophet that cometh into the world.
15 Jesus therefore perceiving that they were about to come and take him by force, to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain himself alone.
16 And when evening came, his disciples went down unto the sea; 17 and they entered into a boat, and were going over the sea unto Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them. 18 And the sea was rising by reason of a great wind that blew. 19 When therefore they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they behold Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the boat: and they were afraid. 20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. 21 They were willing therefore to receive him into the boat: and straightway the boat was at the land whither they were going.
22 On the morrow the multitude that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other [e]boat there, save one, and that Jesus entered not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples went away alone 23 (howbeit there came [f]boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks): 24 when the multitude therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they themselves got into the [g]boats, and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? 26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye ate of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. 28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom [h]he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He [i]gave them bread out of heaven to eat. 32 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 They said therefore unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not. 37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and [j]I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of heaven? 43 Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, [k]And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which cometh down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove one with another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. 54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is [l]meat indeed, and my blood is [m]drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever. 59 These things said he in [n]the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
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60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear [o]it? 61 But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said unto them, Doth this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should [p]betray him. 65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, Would ye also go away? 68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou [q]hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we have believed and know that thou art the Holy One of God. 70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should [r]betray him, being one of the twelve.
Footnotes:
American Standard Version (ASV) 66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, Would ye also go away? 68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou [q]hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we have believed and know that thou art the Holy One of God. 70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should [r]betray him, being one of the twelve.
Footnotes:
- John 6:5 Greek loaves.
- John 6:7 The word in the Greek denotes a coin worth about eight pence halfpenny, or nearly seventeen cents.
- John 6:7 Greek loaves.
- John 6:14 Some ancient authorities read signs.
- John 6:22 Greek little boat.
- John 6:23 Greek little boats.
- John 6:24 Greek little boats.
- John 6:29 Or, he sent
- John 6:31 Neh. 9:15; Ex. 16:4, 15; Ps. 78:24; 105:40.
- John 6:40 Or, that I should raise him up
- John 6:45 Isa. 54:13; (Jer. 31:34?).
- John 6:55 Greek true meat.
- John 6:55 Greek true drink.
- John 6:59 Or, a synagogue
- John 6:60 Or, him
- John 6:64 Or, deliver him up
- John 6:68 Or, hast words
- John 6:71 Or, deliver him up
Public Domain
The claim that Reformed theology reduces to God being a puppetmaster is false.
As I said, God changes the nature, and the nature determines the behavior. There are real, free will choices being made by the saved individual. The decisions are constrained by the nature, though.
Are you Pelagian? Are you an open theist? If not, then where does your theology differ from theirs?
By the way, your last sentence has horrible grammar. Re-read it.
As I said, God changes the nature, and the nature determines the behavior. There are real, free will choices being made by the saved individual. The decisions are constrained by the nature, though.
Are you Pelagian? Are you an open theist? If not, then where does your theology differ from theirs?
By the way, your last sentence has horrible grammar. Re-read it.
By the way, Josephs' betrayal was typological of Jesus and his betrayal by his brothers, the Jews. God engineered the type to correspond with the ultimate fulfillment. There are so many interconnected types in the Old Testament, that I'd have to be Ray Charles to fail to see them. And, that is where so many "free-willers" are at.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND READ SOME GOOD BOOKS ON BIBLICAL THEOLOGY. Start with Edmund Clowney and The Unfolding Mystery.
Reformed people have an organic view of Scripture, and that reinforces their doctrine of compatibilism.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND READ SOME GOOD BOOKS ON BIBLICAL THEOLOGY. Start with Edmund Clowney and The Unfolding Mystery.
Reformed people have an organic view of Scripture, and that reinforces their doctrine of compatibilism.
Here are some notes on Gen 50:20:
Genesis 50:20 50:20 you meant evil . . . God meant it for good. A classic statement of God’s sovereign overruling of human history to accomplish His gracious purposes (24:27; 45:5, 7, 8 and notes). See “Providence” at Prov. 16:33.
that many people should be kept alive. In Egypt, Canaan, and elsewhere (41:57). Viewed in the light of God’s earlier promise to Abraham that all the nations will be blessed through one of his descendants (22:18), Joseph’s actions prefigure those of Jesus Christ. The salvation provided by Christ, however, extends far beyond feeding people in a time of famine.
(Reformation SB)
The situation with Joseph pales in significance to the Exodus and how this prefigures the believers' liberation from sin. The complexity of the typology in Scripture simply cannot be attributed to man's random, free-will decisions...it is obvious to me that God orchestrates man's actions in a way that doesn't do violence to his creaturely free will.
By the way, that's all he has..creaturely free will. Libertarian free will is bogus. It's the domain of Pelagius and Jesse Morrell disciples.
Genesis 50:20 50:20 you meant evil . . . God meant it for good. A classic statement of God’s sovereign overruling of human history to accomplish His gracious purposes (24:27; 45:5, 7, 8 and notes). See “Providence” at Prov. 16:33.
that many people should be kept alive. In Egypt, Canaan, and elsewhere (41:57). Viewed in the light of God’s earlier promise to Abraham that all the nations will be blessed through one of his descendants (22:18), Joseph’s actions prefigure those of Jesus Christ. The salvation provided by Christ, however, extends far beyond feeding people in a time of famine.
(Reformation SB)
The situation with Joseph pales in significance to the Exodus and how this prefigures the believers' liberation from sin. The complexity of the typology in Scripture simply cannot be attributed to man's random, free-will decisions...it is obvious to me that God orchestrates man's actions in a way that doesn't do violence to his creaturely free will.
By the way, that's all he has..creaturely free will. Libertarian free will is bogus. It's the domain of Pelagius and Jesse Morrell disciples.
