The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
If you notice, and I know you have, that they will strait up IGNORE and arguments that make too much sense to refute, so instead the feign offence and run away. For good. That question about the "3rd temple" goes unanswered and He will not address it at all.
It's crazy how much their behavior mirror the political leftist and Muslim apologist. Weird huh?
Believers like Abel the first recovered martyr, prophet and apostle are the temple not made with human hands.

The walking or moving temple was used during the 40 years in the wilderness . It was used as a gospel sign to the pagan nations. It ended when they reached the propmised land.

Then the faithless Jew led by the god of this world working in their faithless dark hearts. It is revealed they had become jealous of the surrounding Pagan nation and "demanded a King" in the likeness of men as gods they could serve.. . God who is not served by the corrupted hands of mankind told His judge apostle Samuel .They rejected God as King of kings not him .An abomination of desolation making the holy unseen place of God the faith of Christ without effect.

We walk by faith not after what the eyes see the temporal . We have the eternal power of that faith working in us as did Jesus but it is not of the things seen the temporal .flesh and blood



Any temple built after that became source abomination of desolation .

Why build a 3rd? Pleasing to the eye?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Will any futurist acknowledge that the presence of God accompanied the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And in each instance of these great slaughters at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., that the Lord used an invading foreign army? Will any FUTURIST find the courage to admit these truths about those 4 places as told in the OT? Obviously I'm setting a trap, full disclosure.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,353
1,995
113
Will any futurist acknowledge that the presence of God accompanied the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And in each instance of these great slaughters at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., that the Lord used an invading foreign army? Will any FUTURIST find the courage to admit these truths about those 4 places as told in the OT? Obviously I'm setting a trap, full disclosure.
Here's some old posts I've put, on the Subject (plz forgive the C&P from my old posts... this will save me from much typing this morning, before I've had my crack of the dawn, lol...


[quoting old posts... this may take up a few posts, we'll see... plz excuse any repetitiveness, as these are taken from several of my old posts]

… so "the TIMES of the Gentiles" does not refer to what is commonly called "the church age" (it has nothing to do with that); but instead refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think: Neb's dream/statue/image, and Neb as "head of gold") [...and distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]"]


"the TIMES of the Gentiles" ENDS at the end of the [future] trib (Lk21:24b / Rev11:2), when Daniel 2:34-35 takes place.


_____

[quoting Gaebelein, on Daniel 2]

"The great man image is the prophetic symbol of the “times of the Gentiles.” This expression “The times of the Gentiles” is not found in the book of Daniel, but it is a New Testament phrase. Our Lord used it exclusively. In that part of His prophetic discourse which is reported in the Gospel of Luke and which relates to the fall of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the nation, our Lord said: “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled” Luke 21:24. Now, the times of the Gentiles did not begin when Jerusalem rejected the Lord from heaven. Our Lord does not say that the times of the Gentiles were then ushered in. The times of the Gentiles started with the Babylonian captivity by Nebuchadnezzar. The glory of the Lord departed from Jerusalem. The other great prophet of the captivity, Ezekiel, beheld the departure of the Shekinah. […]"

[AND... still quoting further]

"Historical Events ([chpts] 3-6)

The four chapters [chpt 3-6] which follow the great dream of Nebuchadnezzar are of a historical character. They do not contain direct prophecies, but record certain events which transpired during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, his successor and grandson Belshazzar, and Darius, the Mede. [...]
[...]

"These four chapters then give us historical events. Each has a prophetic meaning, though direct prophecy is not found in them.
"These chapters describe the moral conditions which held sway during the two first world empires; they indicate prophetically the moral conditions which continue to the end of the times of the Gentiles. Five things may be traced in these four chapters: The moral characteristics of the times of the Gentiles; what will happen at the close of these times; the faithful remnant in suffering; their deliverance and the Gentiles acknowledging God, as King and the God of heaven."

[end quoting; bold and underline mine, bracketed inserts mine]

____________

[quoting my old post]

First off, let me just clarify that I believe the phrase "great tribulation [or, 'the great tribulation']" refers ONLY to the second half of the future 7-yrs... and that His "wrath" starts well before that point, in the chronology. But that's not the main point I came on here to say...


Here's how I am seeing the various aspects of "WRATH" (I only have time to quote partial passages here, presently... plus, the post will be long enough already, and few read lengthy material anyway :) ) -


"wrath" (pertaining to 70ad, and how He used their "enemies" in the events of same):

--Luke 21:23,20 (in the 70ad section of the Olivet Discourse) "and WRATH upon this people"... "when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies"

--Matthew 22:7 (in the 70ad part of the SEQUENCE) "the king WAS WROTH: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." [v.8 then goes on to tell of the "further revelation" that took place in the LATER 95ad writings of "[The] Revelation," where 1:1 correlates with 4:1/1:19c (7:3), the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book, the part that refers to the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (i.e. describing the far-future 70th-Wk/7-yrs which lead UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom)]

--Luke 19:41-44, esp. v43 (Jesus, to Jerusalem, on Palm Sunday [the very day that the "62 Wks" was fulfilled (7 and then the 62 [69 Weeks total])], just before His death later that same week) "thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round,... And shall lay thee even with the ground... because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."





As for the "far-future" aspect of "wrath," I see this:

--"for God has not appointed US ['the Church which is His body'] to WRATH..." (1Th5:9-10, in the context of the 1Th5:2-3 passage I'm always pointing out with its parallels [Matt24:4/Mk13:5; 2Th2:7b-8a; 2Th2:9a/Dan9:27a[26]; i.e. SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yrs [i.e. the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period]); and... "the one delivering US out from the WRATH coming" 1Th1:10 (an eschatological "wrath"--taking place "on the earth")

--and how the wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a ( ^ ) is very similar to that of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in the context of "WRATH" words and "judgments" on Israel [i.e. how He operates]), where it [2Th2:7-8] says, "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..." and Lam2:3-4 says (in very similar language), "...he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [effectively saying (to their enemy) 'HAVE AT IT!'/'go ahead, sic 'em!'], and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."

--the "whose COMING" v.9a and the v.8a "be revealed" of the "man of sin" is at the START of the 7-yrs, equivalent to the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR (1Th5:2-3); Matt24:4/Mk13:5 G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']" i.e. SEAL #1 rider of the white horse with a "bow" (often representing "deception"), parallel with Dan9:27a[26 - "prince THAT SHALL COME"... and "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"]--so this in 2Th2:8a and 9a is at the START of the 7-yrs, not at its MIDDLE, and not at its END; 2Th2:3-9a is covering ALL 7 yrs (in its THREE PARTS: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END), just as Dan9:27[26] is: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END [7-yrs total]




I believe the "wrath" STARTS when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13 / Rev4-5), when He Himself opens the FIRST SEAL at the START of the 7-yr period (the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period spoken of in Rev1:1[4:1/1:19c(7:3)] and Lk18:8[/17:26-37] and also Rom16:20 (<--but this verse referring to US, "the Church which is His body," doing the 1Cor6:3[14] thing in/from a distinct location from where the other two passages' contexts will unfold/play out "on the earth"--one of the reasons for our "Rapture/Departure" [IN THE AIR])


__________

My main point being, to show (via scriptural precedent) how HE USES their "enemies" in His exercise of His "WRATH," like as a MEANS of it (IOW, the START of the 70th-Wk/7-yrs and His opening of the SEALS [Seal #1 being the equivalent of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'," aka "the man of sin be revealed" (at the START of those yrs), aka the "whose COMING" 2Th2:9a / 2Th2:8a (Dan9:27a[26]--"that SHALL COME"/"for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"), and not that His "wrath" comes as a RESULT (or ENDING-point) of other mens' [enemies'] tribulation thrust upon them (though surely this is also involved)... I'm just saying, the "WRATH" STARTS when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13 / Rev4-5), not way later in the chronology (like at the end of those specific yrs and as merely a result of [or reaction towards] others' doings within those yrs. No.)

[continues in next post]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,353
1,995
113
[continuing]

[and continuing quoting old posts]

I've posted on this Subject in the past (this will save me some typing, if you don't mind = ) )...

I agree that Rev19 is Jesus.

As far as Rev6, I do not believe the rider of the white horse with a "bow" is Jesus, I believe Jesus is the One OPENING that Seal, from His position IN HEAVEN, and these are the "effects upon the earth" of that opening [of Seal / ... &Seals, as they progress].

[quoting my post from May ___ (I think it was), which is really only a brief intro to much more that could be said... and I can try to come back to answer any questions that may arise, from this post]

1) Seal #1 is the equivalent to the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (Matt24:4/Mk13:5 - G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception, which is oft-times how the word "bow" is used in the OT]']" OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of (Olivet Discourse);

...and Rev1:1 is saying that the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book (which INCLUDES "SEAL #1) are "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (<--compare the bolded words with that of 1:19c and 4:1...meaning, the things which come after "the things WHICH ARE" which, by contrast, do not take place "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... So, IOW, the SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS will take place within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, which comes after "the things WHICH ARE" [<--and which things ('WHICH ARE') are NOT said to come to pass "in quickness," by contrast]);

2) Paul said that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the DOTL [time period] will ARRIVE "as a thief IN THE NIGHT" [this is pertaining to when (are) the "LAMPS LIT" ['TOOK LAMPS'] for the NIGHT WATCHES ; )

(note: this is done by the "10 Virgins [/Bridesmaids; PLURAL]" NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" ; ) and is associated with the post I'd made about THAT Subject... won't go into that here);

[Note also: the posts I'd made about the "4 living creatures" having the SAME descriptions as the 4-directional plotment of Israel (in the OT times). ; ) ... (EDIT to add: so this pertains in some measure as to the "PURPOSE" of the opening of the SEALS--i.e. earthly-governmental-related)]

3) Also, in Rev5, Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [and I believe parallel wording between 2Th2:7b-8a and Lam2:3-4...

IOW, "the enemy" is His rod/tool/instrument "of My anger" like Isa10:5,6 says, and like this Lam2:3-4 says "He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy"

(i.e. lifting His RESTRAINT and letting 'im at 'em! [like, opening SEAL #1]), and like Hab1:12b says "thou hast ordained them [the Babylonians, v.6] for/as judgment; and...hast established them [the Babylonians, v.6] for correction" (note the connection btwn "Neb" as "head of gold" and the far-future "ten toes" of the same "dream/statue/image"--this being what the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" is referring to, distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]"])

That's all I'll post for now... but I hope you can see just a small part of why I see it as I do. = )

[end quoting that section of old posts]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,353
1,995
113
[continuing quotes from my old posts on the Subject]

[Gaebelein--Commentary on Habakkuk 2]

Interesting is the quotation of the sentence “the just shall live by faith” in the three passages of the New Testament Epistles. Romans 1:17 quotes this sentence. In this passage the emphasis is upon the word “just.” The theme of Romans is the righteousness of God, at least in the opening chapters. It shows how a person, a lost and guilty sinner, becomes righteous, and as such is saved. “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.”
In Galatians 3:11 the emphasis is upon the word “faith.” “But no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, as it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith.”

In Hebrews 10:38 the emphasis is upon “live.” “For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith, but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him.”

[...earlier in the commentary, he'd said...]

When the end of the times of the Gentiles comes, the world-power then, final Babylon as revealed in the last book of the Bible, will be judged and the Lord will be manifested in all His glory. The prophet’s business is, as well as that of every believer, to wait for it and not be disturbed if there is delay, for the assurance is given that it will surely come and not tarry. And here faith can rest.

Part of this is quoted in the Epistle to the Hebrews. “For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry” Hebrews 10:37. From this quotation we learn that the vision which will surely come is a person, the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the center of every vision and without Him there is no vision. The Septuagint translation is the same: “If He tarry wait for Him, for coming He will come and not delay.”

[end of that quote]


[and]

[quoting Gaebelein]

"In the next place we hear of the certainty of the vision. It is for the appointed time. It hastes toward the end, and shall not lie. The prophet is commanded to wait for it, though it tarry, and then receives the assurance that it will surely come and not tarry. These are important instructions by which many a believer might profit. God has an appointed time for all His purposes and their fulfillment. He cannot be hastened, for His schedule was made before the foundation of the world. When the appointed time comes all visions will be accomplished. It hastens toward the end. That end is the end of the times of the Gentiles, which began with the rising of the Babylonians, and the first great king, Nebuchadnezzar, the golden head in the prophetic image of Daniel 2:1-49. When the end of the times of the Gentiles comes, the world-power then, final Babylon as revealed in the last book of the Bible, will be judged and the Lord will be manifested in all His glory. The prophet’s business is, as well as that of every believer, to wait for it and not be disturbed if there is delay, for the assurance is given that it will surely come and not tarry. And here faith can rest.
[…]
"And now the righteous Lord announces the five-fold woe upon the wicked world-power. While all this applies primarily to the Chaldean, it is likewise a prophecy concerning the future. The world powers remain the same to the end of the times of the Gentiles."

--Arno C Gaebelein, on Habakkuk 2

[bold and underline mine]


[the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" running from 606bc to the END of the future trib (Rev11:2 / Lk21:24; though not straight through without break); think: Neb's dream/statue/image, of which he was the "head of gold"; i.e. Gentile domination over Israel, concluding at the time of Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth [Rev19] (like in Dan7:25,27 and Dan2:35,44-45); distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles"]


[end quoting old posts]
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Hi TDW,

I appreciate the reposting of old posts. They don't answer my 2 simple questions. They really just require a yes or no answer.

Was God present during the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5)? By present, I mean don't mean His is omnipresent. I mean was His presence there in each case carrying out judgment?

And in each instance of these great slaughters at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., did the Lord used an invading foreign army?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,353
1,995
113
Hi TDW,
I appreciate the reposting of old posts. They don't answer my 2 simple questions. They really just require a yes or no answer.
Was God present during the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5)? By present, I mean don't mean His is omnipresent. I mean was His presence there in each case carrying out judgment?
And in each instance of these great slaughters at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., did the Lord used an invading foreign army?
Hmm... let me ask this: do you see what I've posted (in the above posts) about "the 70ad events" ?
...passages such as "Lk21:23,20 [in the 70ad section of Olivet Discourse] / Lk19:41-44 [what Jesus said about it] / Matt22:7 ['the king WAS WROTH: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." [v.8 then goes on to tell of the "further revelation" that took place in the LATER 95ad writings of "[The] Revelation," where 1:1 correlates with 4:1/1:19c (7:3), the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book, the part that refers to the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period [...]"
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,823
13,447
113
Without parables, the prophecies of Christ, the Holy Spirit spoke not.
You're really confused. You have taken a single verse of Scripture out of context, forced it through the meat grinder of your heretical view of the Trinity, and made meaningless pulp of it.

You'd do better to submit to some sound instruction in the Bible.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Hmm... let me ask this: do you see what I've posted (in the above posts) about "the 70ad events" ?
...passages such as "Lk21:23,20 [in the 70ad section of Olivet Discourse] / Lk19:41-44 [what Jesus said about it] / Matt22:7 ['the king WAS WROTH: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." [v.8 then goes on to tell of the "further revelation" that took place in the LATER 95ad writings of "[The] Revelation," where 1:1 correlates with 4:1/1:19c (7:3), the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book, the part that refers to the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period [...]"
Please just answer the 2 questions I posed, then I will be happy to answer your question. Right now I am not talking about 70 AD. I am talking about the great slaughters at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., was God there and did God use foreign invading armies to carry out those judgments? Just trying to get everyone on the same page.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,353
1,995
113
The thing is (and you're not gonna hear me, I realize), I was going to TIE INTO that post the part about the "you will not see Me again UNTIL" (<---which pertains to my "answer"

... but you wouldn't be able to "get" that, if I merely give a one-word response... ;) So... the following re-post is for the readers following this thread, which is my fuller "answer" tho not all I could say on the matter :D ):


[quoting old post]


Luke 13:35 -
Berean Study Bible
Look, your house is left to you desolate. And I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Berean Literal Bible
Behold, your house is left to you. And I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.'"


Matthew 23:38-39 -
BSB
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

BLB
38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate! For I say to you, you shall not see Me from now until you say, 'Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.'"


[and I'd made a post about the parallels in Genesis 43-44, regarding Joseph's SECOND dream (Gen37:9, parallel Christ's SECOND advent [whereas Joseph's FIRST dream parallels Christ's FIRST advent, comp. 37:7-8a with Lk19:14]), now quoting that post]


Consider the following:

[quoting old posts]

Genesis 43 - [in the context of Joseph's 7-Year Famine]

3 But Judah replied, “The man [the one they sold into slavery (Gen45:4)] solemnly warned us, ‘You will not see my face again unless your brother [the youngest, Benjamin] is with you.’ [...]

5 But if you will not send him, we will not go; for the man told us, ‘You will not see my face again unless your brother is with you.’


Genesis 44 -
23 But you said to your servants, ’Unless your younger brother comes down with you, you will not see my face again.’

26 But we answered, ‘We cannot go down there unless our younger brother goes with us. So if our younger brother is not with us, we cannot see the man.'

____________


Matthew 21:9 -
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Mark 11:9-10 -
And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

[THESE ^ occurred just before His "CUT OFF" circumstances (His arrest/trials/death on the Cross)]


Matthew 23:39 -
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 13:35 -
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


[see also 1 Chronicles 5:1-2isv - "5:1 Here is a record of[a] the descendants of Reuben, Israel’s firstborn. (He was the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s marriage bed, his birthright was transferred to the descendants of Israel’s son Joseph. As a result, Reuben is not enrolled in the genealogy according to the birthright. 2 Even though Judah became prominent among his relatives—that is, the Commander-in-chief will be his descendant—nevertheless the right of the firstborn went to Joseph.)" (see again verses at TOP)]


[and]

Recall what Jesus had said in Luke 19:14 (and how this is reflective of Joseph's FIRST dream [re: Jesus' FIRST coming/advent] and what is stated by his brothers in Gen37:8),

"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation [G4242 - presbeia] after him to say, ‘We do not want this man to rule over us.’."

["Joseph's SECOND dream" correlating with Jesus' SECOND coming/advent and circumstances surrounding that (see passage below)]

[...<snip>... (to save space, lol)]

(see Rev12:1,13b and context [with 13b saying "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH [i.e. prior to this mid-trib point in time] the MALE [G730 - arsen/arren]"... no "child" word in this verse])]

[and]

Then, I've mentioned how in the SECOND YR of Joseph's 7-yr famine (Gen45:1,6), was this done: "and there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO his brethren" (similar to the wording found in Ezekiel 39:7's Gog-Magog War events, which I mentioned correlates with the future "SEAL 2 WARS" fairly early in the future 7-yr trib yrs (with Ezek being in order/sequence, and with "the dry bones prophecy" showing to take place in STAGES... so that the "time-prophecies" I pointed out also on Page 45 of this thread [EDIT: a different thread, not this present one], are simply the "stage-setting" aspect of the future stages yet to come, relating to Israel [where in 39:7 He again will call them "My people Israel"])

____________

The above portion (the verses quoted from Gen43-44) is preceded by the following verse:

Genesis 42:18 [see also vv.33-34] -

"18 And Joseph said unto them THE THIRD DAY, This do, and live; for I fear God:"

"19 If ye be true men, let one of your brethren be bound in the house of your prison: go ye, carry corn for the famine of your houses:
20 But bring your youngest brother unto me; so shall your words be verified, and ye shall not die. And they did so."

[again, see Hosea 5:14-6:3's "TILL" and "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" from the perspective (in time) of His ascension, re: Israel (Israel's 'FUTURE')--again, not "singular 24-hr days" being meant here!! (and Peter tells us not to be ignorant OF THIS ONE THING!;) )]

[end quoting old post]



____________

Now... lemme think.... is Jesus "God" ? (Yes... yes He is. ;) )
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
The thing is (and you're not gonna hear me, I realize), I was going to TIE INTO that post the part about the "you will not see Me again UNTIL" (<---which pertains to my "answer"

... but you wouldn't be able to "get" that, if I merely give a one-word response... ;) So... the following re-post is for the readers following this thread, which is my fuller "answer" tho not all I could say on the matter :D ):


[quoting old post]


Luke 13:35 -
Berean Study Bible
Look, your house is left to you desolate. And I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Berean Literal Bible
Behold, your house is left to you. And I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.'"


Matthew 23:38-39 -
BSB
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

BLB
38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate! For I say to you, you shall not see Me from now until you say, 'Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.'"


[and I'd made a post about the parallels in Genesis 43-44, regarding Joseph's SECOND dream (Gen37:9, parallel Christ's SECOND advent [whereas Joseph's FIRST dream parallels Christ's FIRST advent, comp. 37:7-8a with Lk19:14]), now quoting that post]


Consider the following:

[quoting old posts]

Genesis 43 - [in the context of Joseph's 7-Year Famine]

3 But Judah replied, “The man [the one they sold into slavery (Gen45:4)] solemnly warned us, ‘You will not see my face again unless your brother [the youngest, Benjamin] is with you.’ [...]

5 But if you will not send him, we will not go; for the man told us, ‘You will not see my face again unless your brother is with you.’


Genesis 44 -
23 But you said to your servants, ’Unless your younger brother comes down with you, you will not see my face again.’

26 But we answered, ‘We cannot go down there unless our younger brother goes with us. So if our younger brother is not with us, we cannot see the man.'

____________


Matthew 21:9 -
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Mark 11:9-10 -
And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

[THESE ^ occurred just before His "CUT OFF" circumstances (His arrest/trials/death on the Cross)]


Matthew 23:39 -
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 13:35 -
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


[see also 1 Chronicles 5:1-2isv - "5:1 Here is a record of[a] the descendants of Reuben, Israel’s firstborn. (He was the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s marriage bed, his birthright was transferred to the descendants of Israel’s son Joseph. As a result, Reuben is not enrolled in the genealogy according to the birthright. 2 Even though Judah became prominent among his relatives—that is, the Commander-in-chief will be his descendant—nevertheless the right of the firstborn went to Joseph.)" (see again verses at TOP)]


[and]

Recall what Jesus had said in Luke 19:14 (and how this is reflective of Joseph's FIRST dream [re: Jesus' FIRST coming/advent] and what is stated by his brothers in Gen37:8),

"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation [G4242 - presbeia] after him to say, ‘We do not want this man to rule over us.’."

["Joseph's SECOND dream" correlating with Jesus' SECOND coming/advent and circumstances surrounding that (see passage below)]

[...<snip>... (to save space, lol)]

(see Rev12:1,13b and context [with 13b saying "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH [i.e. prior to this mid-trib point in time] the MALE [G730 - arsen/arren]"... no "child" word in this verse])]

[and]

Then, I've mentioned how in the SECOND YR of Joseph's 7-yr famine (Gen45:1,6), was this done: "and there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO his brethren" (similar to the wording found in Ezekiel 39:7's Gog-Magog War events, which I mentioned correlates with the future "SEAL 2 WARS" fairly early in the future 7-yr trib yrs (with Ezek being in order/sequence, and with "the dry bones prophecy" showing to take place in STAGES... so that the "time-prophecies" I pointed out also on Page 45 of this thread [EDIT: a different thread, not this present one], are simply the "stage-setting" aspect of the future stages yet to come, relating to Israel [where in 39:7 He again will call them "My people Israel"])

____________

The above portion (the verses quoted from Gen43-44) is preceded by the following verse:

Genesis 42:18 [see also vv.33-34] -

"18 And Joseph said unto them THE THIRD DAY, This do, and live; for I fear God:"

"19 If ye be true men, let one of your brethren be bound in the house of your prison: go ye, carry corn for the famine of your houses:
20 But bring your youngest brother unto me; so shall your words be verified, and ye shall not die. And they did so."

[again, see Hosea 5:14-6:3's "TILL" and "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" from the perspective (in time) of His ascension, re: Israel (Israel's 'FUTURE')--again, not "singular 24-hr days" being meant here!! (and Peter tells us not to be ignorant OF THIS ONE THING!;) )]

[end quoting old post]



____________

Now... lemme think.... is Jesus "God" ? (Yes... yes He is. ;) )
My question doesn't require a long drawn out explanation. Either God was present for the destruction of those 4 places in the 6th century BC or He wasn't. How about this, was there any time after the Fall in the Garden that God's presence was on or near earth influencing things? If so, please cite the passages you are aware of.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
We agree on the second coming, fire destruction and resurrection of the believer.

However your claim of the wicked hanging around for 1,000 years while the church in heaven investigates their judgement is a big no go.

As I previously stated, it all ends at the second coming in final judgement of all in the twinkling of an eye.

Are you 7th Day Adventist?

Your teaching of the wicked hanging out for 1,000 years (Soul Sleep) and the (Investigative Judgement) of the church in heaven is pretty much the same as the 7th Day Adventist and the teachings of Ellen G. White?
Yes, I am SDA - we believe the soul is as what Genesis 2:7 says: that it's the union of the Body and Breath of Life, which at death the dissolution of (Body decays to the Earth, Breath ascends to God) leaves the Soul "dead" or "cease to be". So, the wicked cease to be until their 2nd Life in the resurrection of the wicked, at which time they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and die the 2nd Death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
That works with the alleged late date of Revelation, but not at all with the early date.
I think my point still stands: that as John sees the 6th plague falling, Jesus breaks in and declares that His coming is still future to it. The plagues have to fall before Jesus comes.
Look to the OT to see where "heavens" and "earth" are used metaphorically.
I'm pretty sure the "heavens" refer to the sky in every case, and unless the skies above Jerusalem have "passed away with a great noise", then Peter is referring to a future catastrophe. "What is local and literal in the Old Testament is spiritual and world wide in the New Testament."
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,823
13,447
113
I think my point still stands: that as John sees the 6th plague falling, Jesus breaks in and declares that His coming is still future to it. The plagues have to fall before Jesus comes.
I'm pretty sure the "heavens" refer to the sky in every case, and unless the skies above Jerusalem have "passed away with a great noise", then Peter is referring to a future catastrophe. "What is local and literal in the Old Testament is spiritual and world wide in the New Testament."
I would encourage two things: do your own research, and hold lightly to extrabiblical sayings. :)
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,492
113
Yes, I am SDA - we believe the soul is as what Genesis 2:7 says: that it's the union of the Body and Breath of Life, which at death the dissolution of (Body decays to the Earth, Breath ascends to God) leaves the Soul "dead" or "cease to be". So, the wicked cease to be until their 2nd Life in the resurrection of the wicked, at which time they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and die the 2nd Death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.
Thanks for your honesty, I thought I was seeing 7th Day Adventist (Soul Sleep) and Ellen G. Whites (Investigative Judgement)

I'm fully aware of the history in 7th Day Adventism and Ellen G. Whites teachings.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,353
1,995
113
How about this, was there any time after the Fall in the Garden that God's presence was on or near earth influencing things? If so, please cite the passages you are aware of.
When I wrote the following portions... especially (for example) where I pointed out the 70ad events in the MATTHEW 22:7 verse (and its v.2 context--see bottom of post, which I had posted alongside the other [related] passages I listed),

Hmm... let me ask this: do you see what I've posted (in the above posts) about "the 70ad events" ?
...passages such as "Lk21:23,20 [in the 70ad section of Olivet Discourse] / Lk19:41-44 [what Jesus said about it] / Matt22:7 ['the king WAS WROTH: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." [v.8 then goes on to tell of the "further revelation" that took place in the LATER [...]
TDW: "wrath" (pertaining to 70ad, and how He used their "enemies" in the events of same):
--Luke 21:23,20 (in the 70ad section of the Olivet Discourse) "and WRATH upon this people"... "when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies"
--Matthew 22:7 (in the 70ad part of the SEQUENCE) "the king WAS WROTH: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." [v.8 then goes on to tell of the "further revelation" that took place in the LATER [...]
...[so...] where Matthew 22:2 [the context for v.7 ^ ] sets it up by saying, “The kingdom of the heavens is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son"...


...just who are these ^ that you think *I WAS THINKING* that this [all ^ ] is speaking of, Barney Rubble and Bamm-Bamm?? lol
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
FUTURISTS??

I see that LackofTruth and Phoneyman didn't attempt to touch these 2 questions and DivineWaterStain brushed it aside invoking the sacred names of Barney and Bamm Bamm. Here are my 2 questions to all futurists again.

Was God present during the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5)? By present, I mean don't mean He is omnipresent, we all know that. I mean was His presence there in each case carrying out judgment?

And in each instance of these great slaughters at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., did the Lord used an invading foreign army to carry out His judgment?

JimBone, you are right, these futurists duck and weave better than prize fighters.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,492
113
When I wrote the following portions... especially (for example) where I pointed out the 70ad events in the MATTHEW 22:7 verse (and its v.2 context--see bottom of post, which I had posted alongside the other [related] passages I listed),





...[so...] where Matthew 22:2 [the context for v.7 ^ ] sets it up by saying, “The kingdom of the heavens is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son"...


...just who are these ^ that you think *I WAS THINKING* that this [all ^ ] is speaking of, Barney Rubble and Bamm-Bamm?? lol
Back To Chaos?

Small and large caps, brackets, underline, three different colors?