The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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Nov 23, 2013
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The Scribes and Pharisees thought the same of Jesus Christ when he responded with a question to a question:)

Matthew 15:1-3KJV
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Jesus Christ in the future will return in the heavens, why do you deny this?

In the future the resurrection and glorified body will be received by the believer, why do you deny this?

In the future this existing Heaven and Earth will be destroyed by fire, and the New Creation in the New Heaven, Earth, and Jerusalem will be revealed for eternity, why do you deny this?
The questions Jesus responsed with were questions that answered the Pharisees questions. You on the other hand ask questions to avoid questions that you can’t answer. There is a huge difference between Jesus’ questions and yours.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Let's say you are right, where can we find this mass exodus of people whose bodies will never die in Old Testament prophecies?
You are asking this as though I've not addressed this issue with you [even answered] in the past posts.

So, let me approach it from a slightly different angle (esp since I just made a post over in another thread which [my] post there speaks to this issue)...

... plz read carefully the passage/s of Scripture I referenced in the following post, and get back with me on your thoughts regarding these:

https://christianchat.com/threads/the-incarnation-of-god.193317/post-4308599




(bearing in mind also what I'd put in the past posts, re what Acts 3:22 [and v.26 which refers to THAT aspect of the "having raised up HIS SERVANT JESUS, SENT HIM to bless you..." with THIS "raise" referring to His being "raised up" to a position of prominence BEFORE His death! (namely as "A PROPHET...raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me [me, meaning 'Moses']"... i.e. Jesus came in the role of "A PROPHET" unto Israel [1st advent]... surely you believe it is the capacity of "prophets" to "PROPHESY," right?--now chk out that link post)] )
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Thanks for your detailed response concerning your belief.

I strongly disagree

At the second coming you gave the wicked dropping dead hanging out on a desolate earth, while the church in heaven is reviewing their future judgement after 1,000 years. Sounds like the 7th day Adventist (Soul Sleep) and the Ellen G. White (Investigative Judgement)
I don't accept or reject a spiritual proposition based on who teaches, but based on whether it stands the test of Biblical scrutiny. Doesn't Psalms 7:6-11 says that God judges the righteous while being angry at the wicked along with an allusion to the "Day of Atonement" which all understand was the end of the year "Judgment" of Israel? Does not the Bible say that God "trieth" the righteous while at the same time hating the wickedness of men (Psalm 11:5-6)? It is from this word "bacham" that the word "trial" is derived. Judgment must first begin at the house of God, right? Also, Jesus is coming "with" His reward, which means the rewards have to be determined by trials before He comes. Daniel says Jesus comes before the Ancient of Days and the "Judgment was set an the books were opened" and this Judgment takes place while the Little Horn is still running his mouth, so that is before the 2nd Coming. Many more verses that teach of this Judgment.
I believe Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement immediately after the future tribulation, as the righteous living are caught up, and all that are in the Graves are resurrected, as this existing heaven and Earth are dissolved by the Lord's fire, as the righteous enter the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, the wicked are judged to the Lake of fire, judgement complete (Eternity Begins)
There's just one problem with that theory: you're forgetting that the 1,000 years are bookended by the two resurrections, according to Revelation.
There is "ONE" future resurrection and final judgement of "ALL", death and hell will deliver up "ONCE", the book of life will be opened up "ONCE", death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire "ONCE" The resurrection of "ALL" takes place on the Last Day
There are only two resurrections, the one that takes place at the 2nd Coming and the resurrection of the wicked 1,000 years later...so in that way "all" will be resurrected, but not at the same time.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Oh no, not another person with little to no knowledge of OT prophetic symbolism. :(:(

1. Jesus returned around 66-70 AD and we are still here.
Jesus didn't return then. In Revelation, Jesus opens His mouth for the first time since chapter 3 when John is detailing the 6th Plague and He says, "Behold, I come as a thief", which means He still hasn't come back yet. Are you going to claim that the 7 Last Plagues have already fallen?
2. Peter's reference to "earth" in that passage from 2 Pet 3 refers to the Land of Israel. The "works" was the temple. Thus Israel, Jerusalem and its temple were burned up with fervent heat.
Peter plainly says the "heavens" along with the Earth shall pass away with a great noise. Jerusalem may have been destroyed in 70 A.D., but the sky is still very much just as there now as it was then. You do understand that the sun, moon, and stars of the heavens remained as intact then as they do now, right? It is nothing short of theological skulduggery to claim otherwise :)
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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Jesus didn't return then. In Revelation, Jesus opens His mouth for the first time since chapter 3 when John is detailing the 6th Plague and He says, "Behold, I come as a thief", which means He still hasn't come back yet. Are you going to claim that the 7 Last Plagues have already fallen?
Peter plainly says the "heavens" along with the Earth shall pass away with a great noise. Jerusalem may have been destroyed in 70 A.D., but the sky is still very much just as there now as it was then. You do understand that the sun, moon, and stars of the heavens remained as intact then as they do now, right? It is nothing short of theological skulduggery to claim otherwise :)
We agree on the second coming, fire destruction and resurrection of the believer.

However your claim of the wicked hanging around for 1,000 years while the church in heaven investigates their judgement is a big no go.

As I previously stated, it all ends at the second coming in final judgement of all in the twinkling of an eye.

Are you 7th Day Adventist?

Your teaching of the wicked hanging out for 1,000 years (Soul Sleep) and the (Investigative Judgement) of the church in heaven is pretty much the same as the 7th Day Adventist and the teachings of Ellen G. White?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Josephus recorded the events of 66-70 AD. He recorded actual, historical fulfillment of multiple prophesies of multiple prophets including Jesus and John.

The redeeming work was completed at the Cross. But the wrath, vengeance and judgment for those responsible was not completed until the 7th bowl was poured out. From Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Notice the "It is done!?" Who is talking about political nations?

Josephus is not part of all things written in the law and the prophets. What he recorded has nothing to do with the temple made with human hands "The abomination of desolation" .That eye sore was made desolate when Jesus walked out for the last time and moved to the high mountain to represent all the kingdoms of the world will become his on the last day. Not 70 A.D. in view of the political nations as if we did wrestles against flesh and blood.

Is left desolate! Not will be.

Matheew23:38" 39 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Therefore as living parable having walked out of the abomination of desolation (Kings in Israel in the holy unseen place of God )

Having stepped out for the last time The disciples who did not understand the meaning of the parable it was hid from them.They must of thought he was blind and he needed to open his eyes. But the prophesy the father spoke to corrupted Israel to represent corrupted mankind was that they would not see him until the last day .Mysterious abruptly moving to a high mountain to represent all the kingdoms of the world will then have become His kingdoms on that same last day

The parable continuing into the next chapter

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: (AOD) and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

No sign as a wonder was given. Just the usual sign of the times like in the days of Noah . Satan looks to add lying wonder to those signs . He would have mankind rebuking the Moon and the wolves that howl at it

 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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Josephus is not part of all things written in the law and the prophets. What he recorded has nothing to do with the temple made with human hands "The abomination of desolation" .That eye sore was made desolate when Jesus walked out for the last time and moved to the high mountain to represent all the kingdoms of the world will become his on the last day. Not 70 A.D. in view of the political nations as if we did wrestles against flesh and blood.

Is left desolate! Not will be.

Matheew23:38" 39 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Therefore as living parable having walked out of the abomination of desolation (Kings in Israel in the holy unseen place of God )

Having stepped out for the last time The disciples who did not understand the meaning of the parable it was hid from them.They must of thought he was blind and he needed to open his eyes. But the prophesy the father spoke to corrupted Israel to represent corrupted mankind was that they would not see him until the last day .Mysterious abruptly moving to a high mountain to represent all the kingdoms of the world will then have become His kingdoms on that same last day

The parable continuing into the next chapter

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: (AOD) and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

No sign as a wonder was given. Just the usual sign of the times like in the days of Noah . Satan looks to add lying wonder to those signs . He would have mankind rebuking the Moon and the wolves that howl at it
You're making your case on a single verse and ignoring many others. Jesus said plainly, "When you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place" meaning future. Luke records Jesus' statement as, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies". That happened just prior to the destruction of 70 AD.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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Jesus didn't return then. In Revelation, Jesus opens His mouth for the first time since chapter 3 when John is detailing the 6th Plague and He says, "Behold, I come as a thief", which means He still hasn't come back yet. Are you going to claim that the 7 Last Plagues have already fallen?
That works with the alleged late date of Revelation, but not at all with the early date.

Peter plainly says the "heavens" along with the Earth shall pass away with a great noise. Jerusalem may have been destroyed in 70 A.D., but the sky is still very much just as there now as it was then. You do understand that the sun, moon, and stars of the heavens remained as intact then as they do now, right? It is nothing short of theological skulduggery to claim otherwise :)
Look to the OT to see where "heavens" and "earth" are used metaphorically.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Was Nero the only documented witness?
Here's the passage. Others were present but only Nero was named.

As construction of the canal in Greece began, Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.” Recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground, the sound of a trumpet was heard. The fact that a trumpet was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised literally fulfills 1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable. . . .” Cassius Dio Roman History 63.22
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Josephus is not part of all things written in the law and the prophets. What he recorded has nothing to do with the temple made with human hands "The abomination of desolation" .That eye sore was made desolate when Jesus walked out for the last time and moved to the high mountain to represent all the kingdoms of the world will become his on the last day. Not 70 A.D. in view of the political nations as if we did wrestles against flesh and blood.

Is left desolate! Not will be.

Matheew23:38" 39 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Therefore as living parable having walked out of the abomination of desolation (Kings in Israel in the holy unseen place of God )

Having stepped out for the last time The disciples who did not understand the meaning of the parable it was hid from them.They must of thought he was blind and he needed to open his eyes. But the prophesy the father spoke to corrupted Israel to represent corrupted mankind was that they would not see him until the last day .Mysterious abruptly moving to a high mountain to represent all the kingdoms of the world will then have become His kingdoms on that same last day

The parable continuing into the next chapter

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: (AOD) and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

No sign as a wonder was given. Just the usual sign of the times like in the days of Noah . Satan looks to add lying wonder to those signs . He would have mankind rebuking the Moon and the wolves that howl at it
Gary,

You always seem to look for some higher, secret meaning when the plain text works just fine. The temple was not desolate when Jesus last left it.

des·o·late

adjective
adjective: desolate
/ˈdesələt/
  1. (of a place) deserted of people and in a state of bleak and dismal emptiness.
The temple and all of Jerusalem was desolated in 70 AD. When Jesus said, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" he was telling them what was about to happen, not that it had already happened. History informs us the temple continued to operate, even if it wasn't correctly, until it was burned in 70 AD.

]Josephus is not part of all things written in the law and the prophets. What he recorded has nothing to do with the temple made with human hands "The abomination of desolation"
Again, and I know I sound like a broken record, Josephus was the only known eyewitness historian who recorded the events surrounding the destruction of the temple, thus he has everything to do with the knowledge we have today as to how the prophesies regarding the temple were fulfilled. It doesn't matter how many wives he had or if he was a traitor to the Jewish cause. He wrote what he saw on the ground as prophesy was being fulfilled, with a Roman spin, I'm sure.

I hope you aren't saying that the temple was the abomination of desolation??? The Abomination of Desolation burnt down the temple. It caused the desolation, it wasn't desolate itself.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Jesus didn't return then. In Revelation, Jesus opens His mouth for the first time since chapter 3 when John is detailing the 6th Plague and He says, "Behold, I come as a thief", which means He still hasn't come back yet. Are you going to claim that the 7 Last Plagues have already fallen?
Peter plainly says the "heavens" along with the Earth shall pass away with a great noise. Jerusalem may have been destroyed in 70 A.D., but the sky is still very much just as there now as it was then. You do understand that the sun, moon, and stars of the heavens remained as intact then as they do now, right? It is nothing short of theological skulduggery to claim otherwise :)
Jesus didn't return then.
Yes He did, just as He said He would, to that same generation. The return of Christ's presence (which is what we are talking about) is well recorded historical fact!! He promised He would come back and hold those wicked priests responsible for all the righteous blood they spilled (including His own). He goes on to say, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." We don't have to guess, history records that Titus ordered all surviving priests to be killed, fulfilling Jesus' prophesy. Jesus is speaking to them, not us, when He says, "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” Then when facing the Sanhedrin Jesus says, "Jesus said to him, It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Either He came back to them as He promised or He was wrong. God is NEVER wrong. Maybe the futurists are wrong. Ever stop to think about that possibility?

You need to understand that His presence was to return, not him bodily and recognizable. Why do you think the disciples asked for signs of His parousia (presence)?

Are you going to claim that the 7 Last Plagues have already fallen?
Of course they have. Are you just hearing about this now?

First Bowl: Loathsome Sores:
After Jerusalem was surrounded by the army of Titus, pestilential diseases soon made their appearance there, to aggravate the miseries, and deepen the horrors of the siege. They were partly occasioned by the immense multitudes which were crowded together in the city, partly by the putrid effluvia which arose from the unburied dead, and partly from the prevalence of the famine.​
Interestingly, Josephus says that a “pestilential destruction” came upon Jerusalem during the siege of A.D. 70. Thus in fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28:27, 35 Judea is afflicted with the sixth plague of Exodus, the plague of boils.

Second Bowl: The Sea Turns to Blood:

The fact that the sea “turned into blood like that of a dead man” suggests that the sea had turned red from the blood of the dead floating on the water’s surface. Describing the slaughter of the people of Joppa by the Mediterranean Sea, Josephus writes, “[T]he sea was bloody a long way, and the maritime parts were full of dead bodies.” The sea of Galilee was also bloodied during this war when many Jews from Taricheae were killed there. Regarding this slaughter Josephus says, “[O]ne might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped.” In describing the tragedy at Taricheae, Josephus echoes the point made in v. 3 that everyone in the sea died.

Third Bowl: The Waters Turn to Blood:

The Jordan River also turned red with blood. Many Jews fleeing from Gadara were cornered by the Romans at the Jordan River. Here a great massacre ensued. Regarding the aftermath, Josephus writes that the “Jordan could not be passed over, by reason of the dead bodies that were in it, but because the lake Asphatitis [the Dead Sea] was also full of dead bodies, that were carried down into it by the river.

Fourth Bowl: Men Are Scorched:

In Deuteronomy 28:22, God threatened to punish the Israelites with scorching heat if they ever turned away from him. Josephus records people being killed by the heat of summer during the war with Rome. During the Jewish War, many Samaritans escaped to the mountain of Gerizzim where they were besieged by the Romans at the base of the mountain. Concerning the fate of these Samaritans, Josephus says the following in Wars of the Jews 3.7.32: “Now it happened that the Samaritans, who were destitute of water, were inflamed with a violent heat (for it was summertime, and the multitude had not provided themselves with necessaries), insomuch that some of them died that very day with heat . . . .” Here one can see the literal fulfillment of Revelation 16:9: “They were seared by the intense heat . . . .” That having been said, there appears to be more to the searing heat of v. 8 than just the heat of the sun.

During the Jewish War, Rome followed a scorched-earth policy. In his history of the Jewish War, Josephus records how the Romans set fire to the cities of Israel and the surrounding suburbs and countryside. The punishing heat of v. 8 might also have been induced and aggravated by the many fires ignited by the Romans throughout the course of the Jewish War. In light of Rome’s scorched earth policy, one can see how the people were truly scorched “with fire” in v. 8.

Fifth Bowl: Darkness and Pain:

This infliction was aimed at Rome, the kingdom of the Beast. As is the case in Isaiah 13:9-10, Ezekiel 32:7-8 and Amos 8:9, darkness signifies political upheaval and the fall or death of a king. The darkness of Revelation 16:10 is no exception. In A.D. 69, Rome experienced unprecedented strife. This darkness is a perfect metaphor for what may have been Rome’s darkest hour. This chaos began with the death of Nero Caesar. After Nero’s death, Rome collapsed into civil war and is pictured here dying with Nero. The fact that the beast, Nero, and his kingdom, Rome, are “plunged into darkness” is a Biblical metaphor of the beast being cast into the dark underworld of the dead.

Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up:

The Euphrates is again dried up (as it was when the Persians conquered Babylon in 539 BC) to allow the passage of the kings of the east. During the first century, Rome was the center of the known world, hence the saying, “All roads lead to Rome.” To a Roman audience like the seven churches addressed in Revelation the term “kings of the east” implies kings or rulers of Rome’s eastern provinces which were distinct from the rest of the Roman Empire as the eastern provinces worshiped the living emperor. Thus the kings of the east mentioned here appear to be Sohaemus and Antiochus who ruled on the fringes of Rome’s eastern provinces. These kings would also be east of Patmos and Western Turkey, the location of the 7 churches to which John wrote.

King Sohaemus ruled the kingdom of Sophene on the east bank of the Euphrates between Cappadocia and Armenia. Antiochus was the king of Commagene on the west bank of the Euphrates. These kings of the east offered their military and leadership to aid in the defeat of Jerusalem. In addition to the two kings mentioned above, three thousand Roman soldiers drawn from the legions guarding the Euphrates also reinforced Titus’ army on its road to Jerusalem. Thus the fall of Jerusalem, spiritual Babylon, mirrored the fall of ancient, historical Babylon: both cities having been conquered, at least in part, by the crossing of their enemies over the Euphrates.

Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken

Josephus describes an almost supernatural thunderstorm and earthquake that hit Jerusalem simultaneously before the arrival of Titus’ army. Concerning this event Josephus writes:

[F]or there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and anyone would guess that these wonders foreshadowed some grand calamities that were coming​
Revelation 16:19 says that Babylon split into three parts. In A.D. 69, Jewish refugees from the surrounding cities that had been destroyed during Vespasian’s campaign fled to Jerusalem to make their last stand. Shortly after the thunderstorm mentioned above a three-way civil war erupted. The Jewish rebels were split into three factions led by three aspiring Messiahs—John, Simon and Eleazar. Eleazar and his men were stationed in the inner court of the temple. Simon the son of Gioras controlled the upper city and much of the lower. John controlled the rest of Jerusalem. From here John and his men were attacked above and below by their two enemies

You do understand that the sun, moon, and stars of the heavens remained as intact then as they do now, right? It is nothing short of theological skulduggery to claim otherwise
I will address this last statement of yours separately since you have a lot to learn and I'm out of space.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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Here's the passage. Others were present but only Nero was named.

As construction of the canal in Greece began, Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.” Recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground, the sound of a trumpet was heard. The fact that a trumpet was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised literally fulfills 1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable. . . .” Cassius Dio Roman History 63.22
Cassius Dio Roman History 63.22:

"Nero broke the ground and a trumpet was heard"?

"Behold" 1 Corinthians 15:52 is fulfilled?

Real Big Smiles, I Mean Real Big! :LOL:
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Phoneyman,

You do understand that the sun, moon, and stars of the heavens remained as intact then as they do now, right? It is nothing short of theological skulduggery to claim otherwise
I covered this extensively in a previous post. Not surprisingly, no futurist was able to refute this explanation. These "cosmic disturbances" are common place in the OT when God is delivering judgment to a wicked nation or city. The darkening of the lights in the sky happen every time God's presence comes near. Because of His awesome and mighty power and extreme brilliance so bright that it will kill everything on earth if His light was unfiltered, He rides on His glory cloud (AKA clouds of heaven). This cloud is so dark that it blocks all lights of the sky.

So, when we read this from Mat 24: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." One should expect to see this description precede the presence of the fully glorified Son. Anyone with decent knowledge of the OT will recognize this right away as divine judgment coming, whether it in this case is Jesus or whether like in the OT, it was the Father, doing the judgment.

To the untrained futurist blindly following the traditions of man not willing to study on their own to learn the truth, this language would make you think the world is coming to an end. But, these cosmic disturbances are very similar to the heavenly signs said to accompany the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And just as various heavenly omens marked a great slaughter at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., the same thing is expected to occur at the fall of Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the age, which occurred in 70 AD..

If you look at Young's Literal Translation of Mat 24:30 you see that the Greek word ge can mean the whole earth but it can also be limited to a specific land, an isolated city, kingdom or nation—in this case it is best applied to the nation of Israel alone.

30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;

Thus it was the Tribes of Israel in the first century which would witness the return of Christ along with any Roman solder in the area (those who pierced Him). Don't worry, the sky didn't fall and we are all still here.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Cassius Dio Roman History 63.22:

"Nero broke the ground and a trumpet was heard"?

"Behold" 1 Corinthians 15:52 is fulfilled?

Real Big Smiles, I Mean Real Big! :LOL:
Don't you hate it when I have documented historical accounts that explain everything as being fulfilled in the first century in total agreement with Christ's own words? I know, kinda sucks to be a futurist, when I can show EVERYTHING has been fulfilled and is recorded by various historians. But we don't need these historians if we just accept the word and promise of our Savior which I am happy to do, but you are not... :cool::cool::cool::cool:.

Your desire to escape death has blinded you to the truth my friend. You will live out your life like everyone else has these past 2,000 years and then when you die, you immediately get to go to heaven, with an actually body so you can see, sing, worship, etc.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Gary,

You always seem to look for some higher, secret meaning when the plain text works just fine. The temple was not desolate when Jesus last left it.

des·o·late

adjective
adjective: desolate
/ˈdesələt/
  1. (of a place) deserted of people and in a state of bleak and dismal emptiness.
The temple and all of Jerusalem was desolated in 70 AD. When Jesus said, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" he was telling them what was about to happen, not that it had already happened. History informs us the temple continued to operate, even if it wasn't correctly, until it was burned in 70 AD.



Again, and I know I sound like a broken record, Josephus was the only known eyewitness historian who recorded the events surrounding the destruction of the temple, thus he has everything to do with the knowledge we have today as to how the prophesies regarding the temple were fulfilled. It doesn't matter how many wives he had or if he was a traitor to the Jewish cause. He wrote what he saw on the ground as prophesy was being fulfilled, with a Roman spin, I'm sure.

I hope you aren't saying that Josephus??? The Abomination of Desolation burnt down the temple. It caused the desolation, it wasn't desolate itself.
Without parables, the prophecies of Christ, the Holy Spirit spoke not. Not some higher secret meaning but simply prophecy like all prophecy . The spiritual understanding must be sought out .The literal historical is shown in the letter of the law (scripture) .It must be mixed with faith the unseen of as informed in Hebrew 4. or "no gospel ", no rest being yoked with Christ who dwells in the believe .We are the temple of God. Not made with human hands.

No 2020 vision using the proper tools needed to rightly divide the parables .(below) .Then gospel understanding is made to no effect

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The higher secret is when men add their own prophets to develop as sign and wonders gospel .No sign was given other than Jesus walking out for the last time. Declaring it desolate..

The time of "reformation had come" restoring the proper order (walk by faith) .The end of Jewish flesh used in parables.

Satan could no longer deceive all the nations that Jewish flesh had something to do with salvation. He fell from deceiving all the nations in that way (Revelation 2O) A time of great tribulation like never before or ever again .The faithless Jew lost his ability to deceive themselves that only Jewish flesh matters .

There desire was that God would bring down fire to consume other nations .In the keeping with their faithless pagan religion .(out of sight out of mind) .

I understand you desire to make Josephus your own eye witness as a prophet .He has nothing to do with the knowledge we have today. The last prophet as a eye witness of God, was John. Revelation is still the last book with a warning not to add our subtract from the perfect.

Was Josephus the last prophet.

Many lying wonders have been attempted to be added. The Catholics have their own man set aside to keep up with the false facade, Wolves in sheep clothing. A succession of prophets passed from the serial denier Peter. They call theirs "apostolic succession".

When Jesus walked out and said your house is made dealate. It was . The disciples tried to get him to take a second look not understandings the parable/prophecy .The word he spoke pronounced it desolate. The sign was fulfilled as he walked out .

The Holy place of God is the unseen eternal .Placing a temple made with human hands is a "pagan design". God gave over the unbelieving Jew who had become jealous of all the surrounding Pagan nations . . in order to do that which they should of never to begin with. No seal of approval but rather a faithless abomination.

Why a person would desire to replace God who has no form as if he was a man and did dwell in temples made with human hands makes me wonder? No faith needed for that?

When the veil was rent .There was no Jewish man siting there . When the new order is established there is no temple .

God is the Holy place from where our faith comes from we are the temporal temple

Revelation 21:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
 
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The abomination of desolation. Images as idols in the holy unseen place of God. . destroying the Christians one source of faith . ) The abomination is made to no effect by the word of God. Its a theme woven throughout the bible. Why build another image idol as another eye sore? ?

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Amen, we are now to go make disciples of all nations. Jesus is now seated in victory covered with ALL glory, all authority in heaven........and on EARTH was given to Him!!! Reigning until every last enemy is made a footstool for His feet. THIS is the God I serve, my King RIGHT NOW TODAY ruling in power, changing the hearts of men to proclaim this. Our God is KING now today, and that's something they just can't say.

This was what sent those men to their deaths, not "Oh He is King now..........Just not yet". Completely blind to the fact He is King right now. His Kingdom is on earth right now, and this view point has lit a fire in me like NOTHING ever has, and I have to proclaim it for His glory, so He can use His power through me to draw others into truth, into Him. It rings of truth, fit's everything so crazily well, just the text as it is alone, it's straight up miraculous and I praise Jesus name for it.

I honestly LOVE the way you compose yourself here brother, such a great example of the power of Jesus, glory to our King. Not only that, you truly lay it out so well, and it's become so apparent that they never even consider what you're saying (from what I gather from the comments they make anyway). They don't eve seem to deal with what is being said, they just grab their scriptures rip them out of context then start bombarding you with them over and over. Never actually dealing with ANYTHING you said. This turns into a mindless back and forth where no one is really thinking about anything other than being right.

Personally I've been wrong WAY too many times to think that way.

If you notice, and I know you have, that they will strait up IGNORE and arguments that make too much sense to refute, so instead the feign offence and run away. For good. That question about the "3rd temple" goes unanswered and He will not address it at all.
It's crazy how much their behavior mirror the political leftist and Muslim apologist. Weird huh?
Thanks for your kind words and testimony of how we need to behave as a church. You are correct about the futurist. They have no answer. Many are disrespectful and arrogant. They twist and contort scripture to try to make their view hold water. But worse than that, they steal promises meant for the early saints who really did suffer and die while they blindly follow the traditions of men who stand before large churches, live in mansions and drive expensive cars. These cats think they deserve to escape things more than the early persecuted Christian. They set dates and make movies and write books. They even start a thread like this one not realizing they have the beam in their eye when it comes to this topic.

They missed the Second Coming just as the Jews missed the First Coming. This futurist rapture nonsense has done great harm to the reputation of the church over these past 150 years or so.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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The abomination of desolation. Images as idols in the holy unseen place of God. . destroying the Christians one source of faith . ) The abomination is made to no effect by the word of God. Its a theme woven throughout the bible. Why build another image idol as another eye sore? ?

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.
The Abomination of Desolation destroyed and left Jerusalem desolate. It wasn't an image in some unseen place. Trust me, the Jews of 70 AD could see the Roman solders clearly. All they had to do is look over the wall.
 
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Cassius Dio Roman History 63.22:

"Nero broke the ground and a trumpet was heard"?

"Behold" 1 Corinthians 15:52 is fulfilled?

Real Big Smiles, I Mean Real Big! :LOL:
LOL

Nero was not a prophet. Just as Josephus was not nether the pope a prophet of God any more than louis Armstrong's and his trumpet blowing .

The sun and the moon are still with us called "under the sun" (time restraint). The trump signals the end of all time. The last day .

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the "sun, and the moon" under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 21:23 And the city(Christ bride) had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.*(reflected glory )