The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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Aug 3, 2019
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"the things WHICH ARE" are not said (of them) they "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]".

It is the part (in v.1 and in the parallel wording) where verse 1 is saying,
--"[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [i.e. to John and to those mentioned in 7:3]
--things which must come to pass [<--compare with the wording in 4:1 and 1:19c] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; not adverbs]"

... meaning, when it is time for the things I'm about "TO SHEW" you [to John] to come to pass / be fulfilled / play out in reality / in real-time, THAT SECTION alone [of the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--4:1 thru chpt 19, and thru 20:6 also; i.e. the part ending with His Second Coming to the earth] is what must come to pass in a relatively short amount of time (UNLIKE "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]");

...each of the "prophetic passages" that parallel this section [the "future" section of things being "SHOW[n]" to John, 1:19c / 4:1+ / 1:1 (7:3)] ALL show a "BEGINNING," a "MIDDLE" and an "END" in the same way (I made a post about that) with the same themes/pictures showing in the same slots. (I won't post that here, but I've shown how this equals a span of 7-yrs... i.e. the final "WEEK [/7-yrs]" and that "the beginning of birth PANGS" [including the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time-period] are the EQUIVALENT of the SEALS of Rev6 [but again, the 70ad events come "BEFORE ALL these [/BEFORE ALL these beginning of birth pangs]" thus B/F ALL the SEALS (and not "immediately before"--as this is where the "UNTILs" fit in--that is how "prophecies" work! ;) They have to align, and they DO in my viewpoint!)])
I have a hypothetical question for you:

Say the boss tells everyone at 11:50 A.M. to break for lunch and be back in SEVENTY MINUTES which is 1:00 P.M.

You come strolling in at 3:00 P.M. The boss is furious.

He reminds you lunch was for only SEVENTY MINUTES and wants to know why you are TWO HOURS late.

You reply, "I WAS ONLY gone for SEVENTY MINUTES - there was a TWO HOUR GAP between the 69th and 70th."

OK, now for the question: Will you still have a job the next day?

The above scenario makes about as much sense as you Jesuit Futurists placing a TWO THOUSAND YEAR GAP between the 69th and 70the WEEKS of what Daniel says is only a SEVENTY WEEK PROPHECY.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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I agree that preterism falls short of sound hermeneutics when put to the test on every point. However eschatology is one area that we must extend grace and patience as each person seeks to understand the scriptures for themselves and this takes time. Never allow someones views on preterism, historicism, futureism, or amillennialism, cause you to consider them an unbeliever, or a false brother. We see through a glass darkly. When you call a preterist a heretic it suggest that you think they are not saved, as if their view on eschatology must be correct for salvation. What if you are wrong about your interpretation on passages that are difficult to understand. Are you then a heretic? We allow much more grace for ourselves than we do others when it comes to the word heresy and heretic. I enjoy reading presentations on why someone believes a scripture should be interpreted a certain way. You will not persuade me that a particular view is wrong by telling me it is heresy. You will persuade by telling me what that particular scripture DOES mean, and doing a good job of using the rules of heremeneutics to make your case. There is obviously a reason why born again believers differ on these topics and listening to each other present their reasons is necessary to understanding why without judging a mans character or setting yourself up as judge over his intellect.
All this may be so, we do not dismiss Preterists as unsaved, but they are teaching a lie, which means they are teaching without Holy Spirit unction or authority ... men like Sproule oughta know that in his soul.

All teachers are going to be rigorously scrutinized and so it should be.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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Preterism is a classic example of what happens when a person grasps one important aspect of Biblical truth and pushes it to such an extreme that it becomes heretical. It happens all the time not only with eschatology but with other aspects of the Christian faith.
Jesus said You will know the truth and the truth will make you free. The Bible has multiple levels of truth all are valid but to be stuck
on one level leads to a stunted spiritual understanding and at worse heresy.
Preterism is an extension of Amillennialism, it is amillennialism on steroids. It is a classic example of how the devil operates or one of his ways. First he takes away a precious doctrine [the 1, 000 year reign of Christ with His saints] this leaves a HUGE vacuum, a gap in theology which he endeavours to fill. And in this way gets a foothold or a beach head in the church from whence he commences operations.

Ammillenialism effects what people believe about the last judgement, this has a direct impact upon how we share the gospel.

These are irrelevant subjects.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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We need to be carefull about what say to each other regarding eschatology.. Dispensational premillenialism theology almost bares no resemblance to historic pre millenialism, being a new framework to which one reads all of scripture (not just end times) being only 150 years old.

Preterism whether full or partial is not the same as Amilleniliasm. Preterism really got its start in the reformation era.

Post millenialism is another once widely held eschatological view, although has fallen out of favour more recently.



Whatever view you hold whether, Historic premillenialism, Amillenialism, Dispaensational premillenialism (pre or post) etc, is within the bounds of orthodoxy. That being said they all can't be correct! None of these views take away from the fundamentals of the Christian faith like Christology, the Trinity etc.

I wouldn't listen to anyone who says people with different views on eschatology (within the realms of orthodoxy) are teaching lies, as this imply's that the one teaching is intentionally deceiving, and giving a false impression of an untruth. Some may be disingenuous in their argumentation but that's different.

Anyhow, Like old earth and young earth - continuist and cessationists these debates will go on till the end of the age and on the whole don't effect the fundamentals of Christianity (orthodoxy). Therefore there is nothing wrong with a good and vigorous debate, ad hominem arguments really don't help.

Now, when we refer to heresy in the ordinary sense we are referring to anything that is not true about the fundamentals of the faith, ie, The innerancy of scripture, the virgin birth, Christology, the Trinity, the ressurection, Substitutionary atonement. When our view are unbiblical on these matters then it's heresy.

All that to say I hold one of the above views, and yet I wouldn't say that those with other views are liars or heretics, but brothers saved by grace (I probably once would have, but I've since learned the difference in what is fundamental to the faith and what is not).
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Preterism is an extension of Amillennialism, it is amillennialism on steroids. It is a classic example of how the devil operates or one of his ways. First he takes away a precious doctrine [the 1, 000 year reign of Christ with His saints] this leaves a HUGE vacuum, a gap in theology which he endeavours to fill. And in this way gets a foothold or a beach head in the church from whence he commences operations.
Futurists do EXACTLY the same thing with the 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

By the way, the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, His atoning death, and the resurrection are precious doctrines. The 1,000-year reign of Christ is a side issue. One need not believe it to be saved.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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I have a hypothetical question for you:

Say the boss tells everyone at 11:50 A.M. to break for lunch and be back in SEVENTY MINUTES which is 1:00 P.M.

You come strolling in at 3:00 P.M. The boss is furious.

He reminds you lunch was for only SEVENTY MINUTES and wants to know why you are TWO HOURS late.

You reply, "I WAS ONLY gone for SEVENTY MINUTES - there was a TWO HOUR GAP between the 69th and 70th."

OK, now for the question: Will you still have a job the next day?

The above scenario makes about as much sense as you Jesuit Futurists placing a TWO THOUSAND YEAR GAP between the 69th and 70the WEEKS of what Daniel says is only a SEVENTY WEEK PROPHECY.
Preterism is exceedingly easy to debunk and dismantle. I have done so and dozens of times. It is obvious that it doesn't work. What surprises me that people are still clinging to this dessicated corpse of a heresy.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Preterism is exceedingly easy to debunk and dismantle. I have done so and dozens of times. It is obvious that it doesn't work. What surprises me that people are still clinging to this dessicated corpse of a heresy.
Maybe that's because your "debunking" and "dismantling" have only been effective in confirming your a priori personal beliefs. ;)
 
Aug 3, 2019
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All this may be so, we do not dismiss Preterists as unsaved, but they are teaching a lie, which means they are teaching without Holy Spirit unction or authority ... men like Sproule oughta know that in his soul.

All teachers are going to be rigorously scrutinized and so it should be.
Just like all those who break the Ten Commandments and teach others to do the same will be judged as "the least" before being cast into the Lake of Fire, and rightly so, according to Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, right?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Just like all those who break the Ten Commandments and teach others to do the same will be judged as "the least" before being cast into the Lake of Fire, and rightly so, according to Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, right?
Least in the kingdom of heaven. Not least in the lake of fire.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Least in the kingdom of heaven. Not least in the lake of fire.
Jesus meant those who do and teach lawlessness down here will by called "the least" by those in the kingdom of heaven up there...unless you can point to a single verse where it says lawbreakers will be in heaven...which you can't.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Jesus meant those who do and teach lawlessness down here will by called "the least" by those in the kingdom of heaven up there...unless you can point to a single verse where it says lawbreakers will be in heaven...which you can't.
By that logic the ones who break the commandments and teach men to do it are no different than the ones who do and teach the commandments. According to your interpretation, they are both being called least or great by those up there in the kingdom of heaven. By your reasoning, no one goes to heaven then.

Clearly your exegesis is off.

I favor the interpretation that in the kingdom of heaven there will be those with a lower status and those with a greater status. In human terms, we might view this as a social hierarchy.

Matthew 5:19
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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By that logic the ones who break the commandments and teach men to do it are no different than the ones who do and teach the commandments. According to your interpretation, they are both being called least or great by those up there in the kingdom of heaven. By your reasoning, no one goes to heaven then.
AT THIS MOMENT, heavenly beings are looking down and calling me great for doing and teaching the commandments, while calling many others "least" for breaking and teaching others to do the same.

Matthew 5:19 KJV doesn't mean those who do and teach lawlessness are going to get up there and have to sit at the back of the bus...they've got first class ticket to the resurrection of the damned!
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Er...what? How are they not different?
"Jesus meant those who do and teach lawlessness down here will by called "the least" by those in the kingdom of heaven up there...unless you can point to a single verse where it says lawbreakers will be in heaven...which you can't."

If I understand you correctly, the least are called least by those up there in heaven, but those called least never go to heaven. Right?

Matthew 5:19 uses the exact same language to describe those who are called great in the kingdom of heaven.

To be consistent with your interpretation, neither the least or the great ever actually make it to heaven, rather just get mentioned as either least or great by those already there in heaven.

So who goes to heaven then?
 
Aug 3, 2019
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"Jesus meant those who do and teach lawlessness down here will by called "the least" by those in the kingdom of heaven up there...unless you can point to a single verse where it says lawbreakers will be in heaven...which you can't."

If I understand you correctly, the least are called least by those up there in heaven, but those called least never go to heaven. Right?

Matthew 5:19 uses the exact same language to describe those who are called great in the kingdom of heaven.

To be consistent with your interpretation, neither the least or the great ever actually make it to heaven, rather just get mentioned as either least or great by those already there in heaven.

So who goes to heaven then?
Sorry, understood what you meant and edited my reply but not before you replied. Check it.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I have a hypothetical question for you:

Say the boss tells everyone at 11:50 A.M. to break for lunch and be back in SEVENTY MINUTES which is 1:00 P.M.

You come strolling in at 3:00 P.M. The boss is furious.

He reminds you lunch was for only SEVENTY MINUTES and wants to know why you are TWO HOURS late.

You reply, "I WAS ONLY gone for SEVENTY MINUTES - there was a TWO HOUR GAP between the 69th and 70th."

OK, now for the question: Will you still have a job the next day?

The above scenario makes about as much sense as you Jesuit Futurists placing a TWO THOUSAND YEAR GAP between the 69th and 70the WEEKS of what Daniel says is only a SEVENTY WEEK PROPHECY.
Sorry, but that is not an accurate comparison to this scripture. The fact is that God can do whatever He wants and however He wants. I can provide another scripture that has a gap as well. Compare the two scriptures below:


=====================================================================================================

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on Me, -------------------------- |--------------------- The Spirit of the Lord is upon me

because the LORD has anointed Me--------------------------- |--------------------- Because He has anointed Me

to preach good news to the poor. ----------------------------- | -------------------- to preach good news to the poor

He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, -------------| -------------------- He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives

to proclaim liberty to the captives ----------------------------| --------------------- And recovery of sight to the blind

and freedom to the prisoners, --------------------------------- |---------------------- To release the oppressed

to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor ---------------------|--------------------- To proclaim the year of the Lord's favor

and the day of our God’s vengeance, --------------------------|--------------------- (This last verse left blank intentionally by the Lord)

===========Isaiah 61:1-2 =========================================================== Luke 4:18=================

The scripture on the left is a prophecy found in Isaiah 61. The scripture on the right is from Luke 4:18 where the Lord is quoting the one on the left. When reading the scripture from Isaiah, the Lord intentionally left off "And the day of our God's vengeance" because it had not yet been fulfilled like the rest of the prophecy and in fact has still not yet been fulfilled. He stopped mid sentence leaving that information out of the quote. The day of the vengeance of our God, is synonymous with the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. Since Isaiah spoke that prophecy around 700 BC, from that time until now, would make it a gap of at least 2700 years.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Just like all those who break the Ten Commandments and teach others to do the same will be judged as "the least" before being cast into the Lake of Fire, and rightly so, according to Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, right?
Your fearmongering is silly, because Jesus said, "the least IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD".
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Maybe that's because your "debunking" and "dismantling" have only been effective in confirming your a priori personal beliefs. ;)
So tell us: how do the hardcore preterists deal with the nation Israel, the house of Jacob? You do realize they are in the land correct?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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AT THIS MOMENT, heavenly beings are looking down and calling me great for doing and teaching the commandments, while calling many others "least" for breaking and teaching others to do the same.

Matthew 5:19 KJV doesn't mean those who do and teach lawlessness are going to get up there and have to sit at the back of the bus...they've got first class ticket to the resurrection of the damned!
That's not what the verse says though. It says in the kingdom of heaven they'll be called least or great. It doesn't say that those who are in kingdom of heaven will call others least or great.

Is there any other Bible verse that corroborates your interpretation?
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Sorry, but that is not an accurate comparison to this scripture. The fact is that God can do whatever He wants and however He wants.
No, it is a PERFECTLY EXACT, IDENTICAL ILLUSTRATION of the level of logical redonkulousness required to place a mythological "gap" between the 69th and 70th Week of Daniel - anyone can see that.
I can provide another scripture that has a gap as well. Compare the two scriptures below:
=====================================================================================================

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on Me, -------------------------- |--------------------- The Spirit of the Lord is upon me

because the LORD has anointed Me--------------------------- |--------------------- Because He has anointed Me

to preach good news to the poor. ----------------------------- | -------------------- to preach good news to the poor

He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, -------------| -------------------- He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives

to proclaim liberty to the captives ----------------------------| --------------------- And recovery of sight to the blind

and freedom to the prisoners, --------------------------------- |---------------------- To release the oppressed

to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor ---------------------|--------------------- To proclaim the year of the Lord's favor

and the day of our God’s vengeance, --------------------------|--------------------- (This last verse left blank intentionally by the Lord)

===========Isaiah 61:1-2 =========================================================== Luke 4:18=================

The scripture on the left is a prophecy found in Isaiah 61. The scripture on the right is from Luke 4:18 where the Lord is quoting the one on the left. When reading the scripture from Isaiah, the Lord intentionally left off "And the day of our God's vengeance" because it had not yet been fulfilled like the rest of the prophecy and in fact has still not yet been fulfilled. He stopped mid sentence leaving that information out of the quote. The day of the vengeance of our God, is synonymous with the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. Since Isaiah spoke that prophecy around 700 BC, from that time until now, would make it a gap of at least 2700 years.
You don't understand the difference between your example of an Event Specific Prophecy and the 70 Weeks which is a Numerically Specific Time Prophecy, so please listen:

An Event Specific Prophecy is a prophecy where events mark the duration and/or time of fulfillment. A Numerically Specific Time Prophecy is a prophecy where a specified numerical value of time marks it.

There are ZERO instances where a Numerically Specific Time Prophecy failed to be fulfilled EXACTLY as numerically specified:
Noah preached for the predicted, numerically specified 120 years, no more.​
Sarah bore Isaac after the predicted, numerically specified 1 year, no more.​
Israel was enslaved in Egypt for the predicted, numerically specified 400 years, no more.​
Israel wandered the desert for the predicted, numerically specified 40 years, no more.​
Joshua took Jericho after marching around it for the predicted, numerically specific 7 days, no more.​
The famine during Ahab's reign lasted the predicted, numerically specified 3 1/2 years, no more.​
The Syrian siege of Samaria was over after the predicted, numerically specified 1 day, no more.​
The Shunammite woman bore a child after the predicted, numerically specified 1 year, no more.​
Israel was freed from Babylon after the predicted, numerically specified 70 years, no more.​
Nebuchadnezzar regained his sanity after the predicted, numerically specified 7 years, no more.​
Jesus mission was "complete" after the predicted, numerically specific 3 days (years), no more.​