The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[cv5]

that's an interesting point.

Revelation opens with a promise
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written in it, for the time is at hand.

in my experience, those of my Christian brothers and sisters who like to take the events in Revelation and match them up with other prophecy passages and lay out a plan of end time events are often anxious about the believed-to-be coming situation.

the opposite of blessed/happy.

I think you've got that exactly backwards friend. If Jesus has returned already and left this world in the present horrific state.....all hope is LOST.

 

[Dino246]

Nope. 70AD definitely DOES NOT correlate to Daniels 70th week, whether you allow a gap or not.

I didn't claim that it did.

 

[cv5]

It occurred in Jerusalem and in general in Israel at the Roman slaughter. The description of those days, exactly in length as prophesied, fulfilled that horror. There was no war during Jesus time and shortly after. It was called Pax Romana, the Roman peace. Why does it have to be organized by men? But frankly speaking, where do you read that there is a one world worshipping Jesus before the gt?
So we don’t. Sorry but we who believe the kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of our Lord do just that. The rapture team is just waiting for his return to rescue them.

If the Pax Romana is the universal perpetual peace of the Kingdom of Jesus Messiah, we are in a lot of very deep trouble.

There is no worldwide worship of Christ before the GT.....there is a worldwide worship of the anti-Christ. You've got that backwards.

 

[cv5]

Does Jesus day “the whole world?”

No one in the whole of the Bible said it’s like Egypt. In fact Jesus said nothing in the past or future is like it.
No freeing of anyone occurred in the tribulation. No relation. Where does John write that?
Wrong! Within that generation...a time table.
It was future to Daniel...not to us.

In fact the GT does indeed correlate to the Exodus judgments! Precisely. There are specific GT judgements that are exactly the same.....I will leave that for your own study to determine.
Furthermore, one of the Two Witnesses is very likely to be Moses himself!

But the intent of my post was to illustrate that when the stroke God's judgement falls....EVERYBODY knows without doubt what is really happening. The Israelites knew it, the Egyptians knew it (and said so), the caananites knew it (and said so).

No....the GT has not yet taken place....obviously. Wishful thinking is not the least bit helpful, but eyes wide open vigilance and prayerful watching certainly are.

 

[cv5]

I didn't claim that it did.

You dodged. Not very artfully. You see, Dan 9 is the real test. Jesus absolutely invokes this mathematically unassailable prophecy, and 70AD definitely does not fit. At all. No way no how.

 

[tanakh]

I see it as a spectrum of highest probability to lowest probability. This in terms of Scripture, but also observation, and the historical record. We must also take into account the present state of this world by observing it. As of now the pre-trib rapture is far and away that which makes the most compelling case.

People have been observing the situation for 2000 years. The only people who find a Pre trib rapture compelling are those who wont or cant consider any alternative. If it was so compelling how is it that most Christians dont believe it and the US seems to have the monopoly on those who do. Perhaps you all have a personal tweet line to God and heaven is part of the Union.

 

[Dino246]

You dodged. Not very artfully. You see, Dan 9 is the real test. Jesus absolutely invokes this mathematically unassailable prophecy, and 70AD definitely does not fit. At all. No way no how.

I did not dodge at all. Re-read my post and see two separate parts of your post to which I responded separately.

 

[cv5]

People have been observing the situation for 2000 years. The only people who find a Pre trib rapture compelling are those who wont or cant consider any alternative. If it was so compelling how is it that most Christians dont believe it and the US seems to have the monopoly on those who do. Perhaps you all have a personal tweet line to God and heaven is part of the Union.

Well Sir.....I for one will not give up on my blessed hope. Thats all we really have now isn't it?

 

[cv5]

I did not dodge at all. Re-read my post and see two separate parts of your post to which I responded separately.

Dodged again huh? Tell you what....you tell me how you reconcile and fit 70AD to Dan 9 (per the explicit reference by Jesus) and we can call it a day. You nail it and you win. Have at it.

 

[Dino246]

Dodged again huh? Tell you what....you tell me how you reconcile and fit 70AD to Dan 9 (per the explicit reference by Jesus) and we can call it a day. You nail it and you win. Have at it.

Wow... you really aren't paying attention.

You claimed that I made an assertion that Daniel 9 and 70 AD are directly connected.

I made no such assertion... period.

Read more carefully next time..

 

[cv5]

Wow... you really aren't paying attention.

You claimed that I made an assertion that Daniel 9 and 70 AD are directly connected.

I made no such assertion... period.

Read more carefully next time..

Wonderful. So why aren't you a pre-TRIB a premillennialist?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Perhaps you all have a personal tweet line to God and heaven is part of the Union.

This sounds about right.

Seriously there is simply no alternative to a pre-tribulation Rapture, since the Rapture has always been imminent.

 

[cv5]

People have been observing the situation for 2000 years. The only people who find a Pre trib rapture compelling are those who wont or cant consider any alternative. If it was so compelling how is it that most Christians dont believe it and the US seems to have the monopoly on those who do. Perhaps you all have a personal tweet line to God and heaven is part of the Union.

Tanakh, as a figure of speech I like to say that we have the "waiters" and the "debaters".
The "waiter" are doing exactly as they are commanded. They are on top of their game.
The "debaters"? Not so much, and I'm afraid they are going to quite literally "miss the boat".

 

[cv5]

People have been observing the situation for 2000 years. The only people who find a Pre trib rapture compelling are those who wont or cant consider any alternative. If it was so compelling how is it that most Christians dont believe it and the US seems to have the monopoly on those who do. Perhaps you all have a personal tweet line to God and heaven is part of the Union.

You nailed it buddy.

 

[DorothyMae]

In fact the GT does indeed correlate to the Exodus judgments! Precisely. There are specific GT judgements that are exactly the same.....I will leave that for your own study to determine.

At this I laughed. It means there are none but you do not want to admit it. No frogs, no fleas, no angel of death, I can go on and on.

Furthermore, one of the Two Witnesses is very likely to be Moses himself!

Doubtful. In any case, the two witnesses were for that generation who were about to experience the wrath of God for all the blood shed from Abel to Jesus. They were warned.

But the intent of my post was to illustrate that when the stroke God's judgement falls....EVERYBODY knows without doubt what is really happening. The Israelites knew it, the Egyptians knew it (and said so), the caananites knew it (and said so).

I seriously doubt you sitting here know what they knew. Seriously doubt that.

No....the GT has not yet taken place....obviously. Wishful thinking is not the least bit helpful, but eyes wide open vigilance and prayerful watching certainly are.

I am very familiar with the theology and disagree. But that is what this discussion site is for..exchanging ideas.

 

[DorothyMae]

People have been observing the situation for 2000 years. The only people who find a Pre trib rapture compelling are those who wont or cant consider any alternative. If it was so compelling how is it that most Christians dont believe it and the US seems to have the monopoly on those who do. Perhaps you all have a personal tweet line to God and heaven is part of the Union.

The history of the US believing in the rapture is known. The theology was invented by Darby in the 19th century, I think. The Brits and everyone else in the world rejected it but Scofield put it into his bible and the Yanks bought it hook, line and sinker. As they spread the gospel it got spread too. But now days the truth is coming out. Even when I believed it I wondered who fleeing Jerusalem was going to be important and one, I did not live there and two, where is anyone to flee to?

There is a whole industry living from the rapture theology where a fair amount of money is made in books and movies. Tells you something about the reason for the enthusaism.

 

[cv5]

At this I laughed. It means there are none but you do not want to admit it. No frogs, no fleas, no angel of death, I can go on and on.
Doubtful. In any case, the two witnesses were for that generation who were about to experience the wrath of God for all the blood shed from Abel to Jesus. They were warned.
I seriously doubt you sitting here know what they knew. Seriously doubt that.
I am very familiar with the theology and disagree. But that is what this discussion site is for..exchanging ideas.

Ahhhhmmmm excuse me? Waters turned to blood? Gigantic hail? Forgot about those?
(Rev 16:21) (Ex 92:22-26) the gigantic hail

Everybody knows about the waters turning to blood so I'm not going to bother providing you with scriptural references for that please look for yourself.

Furthermore the Bible is perfectly clear that the Canaanites knew exactly what happened in the Exodus (and that their own judgment was imminent), and the Egyptians knew absolutely that God was judging them as well.

Your assertion that the Two Witnesses of Revelation Chapter 11 were testifying at 70 A.D. is utterly preposterous. Here is a refresher course on the two witnesses if you do not know of them.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the [b]God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 Thesehave power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire."

Preterism, ignorance/denial of the Scripture and unbelief go hand-in-hand. Tragically.
It's high time that everyone on this board became a "waiter" instead of a "debater", because quite frankly this debate is over.

 

[Dino246]

because quite frankly this debate is over.

So does that mean you'll stay out of it?

 

[tanakh]

Well Sir.....I for one will not give up on my blessed hope. Thats all we really have now isn't it?

Amen but its not conditioned on belief in a PRE TRIB rapture but on Christs return and the resurrection

 

[cv5]

So does that mean you'll stay out of it?

Hardly. I'm still waiting for an explanation of why the 70 pound hailstones, the water turning to blood, and the 42 months of the plagues of the two witnesses are missing from the historical record in 70 A.D.