The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[cv5]

Amen but its not conditioned on belief in a PRE TRIB rapture but on Christs return and the resurrection

Actually no. For those still alive the blessed hope is the rapture. For those who have died the blessed hope is the resurrection to meet the Lord in the air with those who have been raptured.

 

[Dino246]

Hardly. I'm still waiting for an explanation of why the 70 pound hailstones, the water turning to blood, and the 42 months of the plagues of the two witnesses are missing from the historical record in 70 A.D.

The hailstones are recorded in Josephus, as are many of the events that took place inside the walls. . Offhand I don't recall the water/blood, but the two witnesses may be interpreted in several ways that are less literal than you're probably thinking.

The problem is that you expect others to do your homework for you. Nobody is obligated to provide the explanations you demand. If you were to investigate the matter honestly, rather than with a biased and closed mind, you might learn a few things that surprise you.

 

[cv5]

People have been observing the situation for 2000 years. The only people who find a Pre trib rapture compelling are those who wont or cant consider any alternative. If it was so compelling how is it that most Christians dont believe it and the US seems to have the monopoly on those who do. Perhaps you all have a personal tweet line to God and heaven is part of the Union.

Here is yet another reason to believe in the soon return of the Lord Jesus Christ and our pre-TRIB rapture.

www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/HIStoryOurFuture/Ezekiels430Days.html

The time is at hand friends. Prepare for His soon coming

 

[cv5]

The hailstones are recorded in Josephus, as are many of the events that took place inside the walls. . Offhand I don't recall the water/blood, but the two witnesses may be interpreted in several ways that are less literal than you're probably thinking.

The problem is that you expect others to do your homework for you. Nobody is obligated to provide the explanations you demand. If you were to investigate the matter honestly, rather than with a biased and closed mind, you might learn a few things that surprise you.

I already did my homework buddy. And 70 pound hailstones in a supernatural thunderstorm I assure you did not happen In 70 A.D. Nor did any of these cataclysmic events....

https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/16.htm

 

[Dino246]

I already did my homework buddy. And 70 pound hailstones in a supernatural thunderstorm I assure you did not happen In 70 A.D. Nor did any of these cataclysmic events....

https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/16.htm

Given your attitude, I have no desire to be your buddy. I prefer people who respect others, even when they disagree.

 

[biker]

Because a 90 year old man poses no threat. (Can’t believe I had to write that it’s so obvious. The Romans had law. They weren’t just mean.)
No they actually had law and order working hard to maintain law and order. They weren’t thugs. People had trials. Paul appealed to Caesar and was acquitted by him and set free.

You definitely have proven to have every excuse needed to continue the way you believe. Even your own excuses do not match how the Romans believed, they only match your reasoning. There are no facts to base upon your assumptions because they are only your assumptions.

 

[biker]

That is the personal opinion of the author according to his prechosen biases.

There are copies of Revelation from the 2nd century that say in the text John was sent to Patmos under Nero. Also, Nero was far more cruel to the christians than Domitian. Far more. What Nero did is generally known. He had John boiled in oil. Pretty cruel. He was the most cruel man who ever lived.

John couldn’t walk at 90 nor speak. It is known that he lived with Mary the mother of Jesus in Ephesus afterwards. That is hardly possible when John was a feeble old man and Mary well into 100.

There is a lot more evidence for the early date but it upsets the whole apple cart so I can see why your side has a deep interest in keepining dispensationalism. So you can cut and paste all
the dispensationist pieces you want. Doesn’t make it fact.

So far, your answers have only been personal opinions. At least the copy/pastes I present have phd's, not personal agenda such as what I read from you!

 

[biker]

I don't know who wrote the Epistles of John.

1st John seems to be in the same style as the gospel.
but this could just mean it was written by someone who was a close associate of the apostle, or had heard him preach a lot and picked up his style of talking.

second and third John, there's no clue as to who wrote them apart from tradition, imo.

Interesting. Is this based upon your belief Revelations was written in 68 AD or just from a hunch?

 

[biker]

well, I think because John is the human agent through whom the inspiration was given.

when translating and then reading it, we use our human experience of language to attach meaning to the marks on the page.

Do we?

There are times I write something and reread it and think, hmmm, that does not sound like me at all.

I wonder if your beliefs stem around the platform of your idealisms?

 

[cv5]

Given your attitude, I have no desire to be your buddy. I prefer people who respect others, even when they disagree.

That's fine. But I would really love to see you actually state your position regarding preterism.
I have stated my position no uncertain terms, and then supported it with Scripture.
On the other hand you seem to be dancing a jig while failing to commit to any particular position.
It just seems so disingenuous to me.

 

[biker]

DorothyMae said:
Because a 90 year old man poses no threat. (Can’t believe I had to write that it’s so obvious. The Romans had law. They weren’t just mean.)
No they actually had law and order working hard to maintain law and order. They weren’t thugs. People had trials. Paul appealed to Caesar and was acquitted by him and set free.

Yes, using a cat of 9 tails on Christ to the point you could see his bodily organs, torn flesh, rib cage, blood everywhere, mocking Him, punching Him, spitting upon Him, calling Him names, shoving a crown of thorns onto His skull, forcing Him to carry His own Cross, stripping the King of kings/Lord of lords completely nude before all to belittle Him was in your words, "The Romans had law. They weren’t just mean."

I don't think you have the first clue about who the Romans were!

Several Believers were boiled in oil, beaten and left to die unmercifully, read the Book of Martyrs, pregnant women were slit open and their fetus fell onto the ground, etc...

Yeah, them Romans weren't just mean...do you even understand what you're saying?

 

[cv5]

I have no idea what the "gt" is but the planet is not destroyed same as the earth was covered with watering destroying the land creatures but not the whole earth. The wrath of God fell on the city that joyously crucified the Son of God. It all makes beautiful sense.

If one thinks about it, why would anyone fight to the tooth the theology that promises unbelievable suffering for everyone for no reason and delights in the rise of evil? I used to believe that nonsense as well and then my eyes were opened by the facts of history American Christians are ignorant of. And then I wondered why I thought Jesus was coming in a violent military take over ruthlessly taking over control of the whole planet. It was also a shock to learn that this is exactly what the Pharaisees believed. The Jews would rule the world from Jerusalem. Does that really sound like a loving God? He forces by threat of physical punishment obedience? Tyranny of the worst kind?

I've got news. Jesus is coming in a violent military takeover ruthlessly taking over control of the whole planet. In fact he is repossessing what is rightfully His, as He has paid the price of possession. And He is going to kick out the bums, rebels, Satanic entities and wicked tenants. He already kicked out the Pharisees.

 

[Absolutely]

Show me the mark of the beast
Show me worldwide taking of the mark.
Show me the flying scorpions.
Show me the hailstones of fire.
Show me 70 ad being "tribulation such as the world NEVER WILL SEE AGAIN"

^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^
Still waiting.
If history is the basis of the historicist view....

Houston,we have a problem.

 

[tanakh]

This sounds about right.

Seriously there is simply no alternative to a pre-tribulation Rapture, since the Rapture has always been imminent.

Really? Lets look a few scripture passages........

And when he had spoken these things while they beheld
he was taken up and a cloud received him out of their sight
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up
behold two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said
Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same
Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like
manner as you have seen him go into heaven

Acts 1:9-11 KJV

Verily verily I say unto thee When thou wast young
thou girded thyself and walkest whither thou would
but when thou shalt be old thou shalt stretch forth
thy hands and another shall gird thee and and carry
thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he signifying
by what death he would gloryfy God

John 21: 18-19 KJV

In Acts we have a literal statement about Christs return. I notice that the men the Disciples meet make no mention of a Pre Tribulation rapture or a secret imminent coming. In fact if you search the Gospels you will find Jesus never mentioned a specific Pre Trib rapture anywhere. This is quite amazing because he had many opportunities to do so. For example when the Disciples spoke to him in Matthew 24. One would think such an important event would be specified somewhere. As it stands it largly depends on elaborate interpretations of isolated texts and if an individual trusts those interpretations.

Did Peter believe in an imminent coming? If you were in Peters place would you after being told that you are going to get old and die? Would you expect to see a rapture in your lifetime let alone imminently ?

 

[Angela53510]

I have already pointed out that the denial and rejection of the Resurrection/Rapture and the visible return of Christ are heresies.

Without the actual Resurrection/Rapture, God's plan redemption for the Church is incomplete. Without the actual Second Coming of Christ, God's plan of redemption for the earth is incomplete. So if you do not think this is heretical, perhaps your should examine your own beliefs.

I agree the Second Coming of Jesus is a vital part of any eschatology.

But you lose me at this so-called "rapture" which is not in the Bible (I am quite willing to look at harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, and show why it does not mean rapture). But even if it were there, one mention of something so important you are willing to call me a heretic, but is not found elsewhere in the Bible is not enough scripture to invent a doctrine.. And people being "taken" is poor application of hermeneutical principles.

So, you have an extremely "iffy" proposition called a Rapture, unsupported in the Bible, and you call me a heretic? For reading what is in the Bible, rather than believe in something that is not there, but, a lot of people think it is!

The real lie is dispensationalism. It has also captured so many people in this snare, where end times becomes all consuming, and even dispensationalist raging with one another about the interpretation of Rev., and the timing of Christ's return, complicated by a false doctrine which keeps people from keeping there eyes focused of God, rather than events!

"keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. For the joy set out for him he endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

Now that's a real "end times" verse.

Finally, God wants us to be transformed into the image of Christ. There are many places this is commanded, both how to do it, and the results like the fruits of the Spirit.

"Do not be conformed to this present world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God—what is good and well-pleasing and perfect." Romans 12:2

Jesus does not want us navel gazing and doing nothing! He wants us to be involved with business as the excerpt from this parable says:

"And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come." Hebrews 19:13

It always amazes me the obsession with eschatology. Instead, we need to be changing and following a Christ.

"We all, with unveiled faces, are looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit" 1 Cor 3:18

 

[tanakh]

I agree the Second Coming of Jesus is a vital part of any eschatology.

But you lose me at this so-called "rapture" which is not in the Bible (I am quite willing to look at harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, and show why it does not mean rapture). But even if it were there, one mention of something so important you are willing to call me a heretic, but is not found elsewhere in the Bible is not enough scripture to invent a doctrine.. And people being "taken" is poor application of hermeneutical principles.

So, you have an extremely "iffy" proposition called a Rapture, unsupported in the Bible, and you call me a heretic? For reading what is in the Bible, rather than believe in something that is not there, but, a lot of people think it is!

The real lie is dispensationalism. It has also captured so many people in this snare, where end times becomes all consuming, and even dispensationalist raging with one another about the interpretation of Rev., and the timing of Christ's return, complicated by a false doctrine which keeps people from keeping there eyes focused of God, rather than events!

"keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. For the joy set out for him he endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

Now that's a real "end times" verse.

Finally, God wants us to be transformed into the image of Christ. There are many places this is commanded, both how to do it, and the results like the fruits of the Spirit.

"Do not be conformed to this present world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God—what is good and well-pleasing and perfect." Romans 12:2

Jesus does not want us navel gazing and doing nothing! He wants us to be involved with business as the excerpt from this parable says:

"And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come." Hebrews 19:13

It always amazes me the obsession with eschatology. Instead, we need to be changing and following a Christ.

"We all, with unveiled faces, are looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit" 1 Cor 3:18

The problem in using the rapture term to me is that its become a kind of trigger for the rest of the pre Trib Dispensationalist rubbish that goes with it. People ask if you believe in the rapture and you have a choice of being branded as either 'a true believer' if you say you do or a heretic if you dont.

You are right of course that we should be concentrating on being transformed into the image of Christ. Dispensationalist teaching
does promote navel gazing and defeatism.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, you have an extremely "iffy" proposition called a Rapture, unsupported in the Bible, and you call me a heretic?

Angela, no one who has studied the doctrine of the Rapture thoroughly from the Bible (ignoring all the anti-Rapture propaganda) can call it it "iffy". There are numerous passages pertaining to the Rapture starting at John 14:1-3, and the parable of the Ten Virgins cannot be ignored either (which also includes the imminency of the Rapture).

Therefore it is a fundamental Christian doctrine. and it is simultaneous with the Resurrection of the saints. So it is really the Resurrection/Rapture which is the fundamental biblical doctrine, and which is at stake.

When anyone denies this it becomes a heresy, since the doctrine concerns the perfection and glorification of the saints. God has PREDESTINED all believers to be perfected and glorified, and that is critical in God's plan of salvation. And here is one clear passage which speaks of the appearing of Christ and the perfection of the saints:

1 John 3:1-3: WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[cv5]

Really? Lets look a few scripture passages........

And when he had spoken these things while they beheld
he was taken up and a cloud received him out of their sight
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up
behold two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said
Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same
Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like
manner as you have seen him go into heaven

Acts 1:9-11 KJV

Verily verily I say unto thee When thou wast young
thou girded thyself and walkest whither thou would
but when thou shalt be old thou shalt stretch forth
thy hands and another shall gird thee and and carry
thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he signifying
by what death he would gloryfy God

John 21: 18-19 KJV

In Acts we have a literal statement about Christs return. I notice that the men the Disciples meet make no mention of a Pre Tribulation rapture or a secret imminent coming. In fact if you search the Gospels you will find Jesus never mentioned a specific Pre Trib rapture anywhere. This is quite amazing because he had many opportunities to do so. For example when the Disciples spoke to him in Matthew 24. One would think such an important event would be specified somewhere. As it stands it largly depends on elaborate interpretations of isolated texts and if an individual trusts those interpretations.

Did Peter believe in an imminent coming? If you were in Peters place would you after being told that you are going to get old and die? Would you expect to see a rapture in your lifetime let alone imminently ?

The rapture is clearly specified as a "mystery" , And it was bequeathed to Paul to unveil this mystery, Which he did in several places at several times. Furthermore there is no conflict between Jesus' statements and actions and the rapture. It is only that the rapture is not fully developed by Jesus in his ministry.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all ...
https://biblehub.com/greek/3466.htm

As regards the rapture you need to know where to look!

(Isa 26:19-21)
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.
Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourselves a little while until the wrath has passed.
For behold, the LORD is coming out of His dwelling to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. The earth will reveal her bloodshed and will no longer conceal her slain.

As for Peter? Well it looks like he must've known that he was not going to see the rapture.

 

[Absolutely]

You would have to open to reading the description of that event by Josephus and realized that when Hebrews wrote things like “under his feathers” doesn’t mean they thought God belongs to the bird family.

Pot <> Kettle

 

[cv5]

You would have to open to reading the description of that event by Josephus and realized that when Hebrews wrote things like “under his feathers” doesn’t mean they thought God belongs to the bird family.

May I ask you a question or two?
Do you actually believe in the supernatural plagues of the Exodus and the miraculous events at mount Sinai exactly as they are written? Do you believe in the miraculous events of the 38 year sojourn (manna, pillar of fire pillar of cloud, shoes/clothes not wearing out etc)?

BTW, The fact that their shoes and clothes did not wear out is really a remarkable miracle in itself!
https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/29-5.htm