The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
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Strikes me odd how some claim to even work with those whose education have taken them beyond the phd, but yet, none of them ever searched John's own Disciples and the Church Fathers directly associated to them. If they were so highly intelligent, one would presume that is the first place they would look. But when you are trying to push baloney, the last thing you want to do is find out the truth that your idealisms are all LIES!
And join the wild speculating, false prophesying and fear mongering? I'd pray that all be spared that.
One's view of the end times doesn't determine one's salvation; that is solely on the basis of faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ. If there were a rapture, the preterist Christians would disappear from here along with the rest.
One's view of the end times doesn't determine one's salvation; that is solely on the basis of faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ. If there were a rapture, the preterist Christians would disappear from here along with the rest.
That's the distorted pigeonhole version.
From what I have heard and read, preterists believe that significant parts of the end-time prophecies were fulfilled 2000 years ago. However, I have not seen strong consistency regarding exactly what has been fulfilled and what is yet to be. That's why I think it's appropriate for them to be quoted.
From what I have heard and read, preterists believe that significant parts of the end-time prophecies were fulfilled 2000 years ago. However, I have not seen strong consistency regarding exactly what has been fulfilled and what is yet to be. That's why I think it's appropriate for them to be quoted.
Knowing from Poly, Ire, Eus that John wrote Revelations when Domitian placed him in Patmos around 94 AD, makes perfect sense why what Josephus wrote never lined up with Revelations.
And Josephus never thought Christ was the Messiah and he was a Roman citizen even as a Jew, so he in around about way was indeed.
As historian Paul Maier observes, “no Jew could have claimed Jesus as the Messiah who rose from the dead without having converted to Christianity.” In addition, the early Church father Origen believed that Josephus was never converted.
My post #28
tanakh said:
The main problem relating to this is in selective interpretation and unintentianal/deliberate amnesia when it comes to other related
Gospel passages that wont fit into whatever the reader wants them to say. Before the discussion in Matthew Chapter 24 Jesus attacked the Religious leadership. The Disciples then drew his attention to the impressive Temple Structure and told them that not one stone
would be left on another that wont be thrown down. His Disciples asked him when will these things be, the sign of his coming, and
the end of the age. He answered by combining events that will happen both in their generation and in the distant future. He knew
what would happen both in 70AD and before his second coming. Many of the events in their generation and the last days would be
very similar and others wouldnt. What is known as full preterism tries to fit everything into one time frame. There are partial preterists that recognise that there will be a second coming followed by a final judgement. Unfortunately literalists fail to realise that Jewish understanding of scripture also recognises that there are also passages that use symbol, metaphor and poetry as well as literalism
both then and now.
Click to expand...
MY Response:
If you are claiming Christ was speaking of 2 events in Matthew 24 I absolutely agree.
He did indeed speak of the 70 AD Destruction.
But He spent more time on the Great Tribulation and specifies the Elect will go through it, the days will be shortened for the Elect's Sake (not the beheaded they are dead so it means SAVED before Tribulation begins), then He says AFTER TRIBULATION end to watch for signs (moon to blood, stars falling) and then from like lightning coming East to West so will be Christ Returning.
tanakh said:
The main problem relating to this is in selective interpretation and unintentianal/deliberate amnesia when it comes to other related
Gospel passages that wont fit into whatever the reader wants them to say. Before the discussion in Matthew Chapter 24 Jesus attacked the Religious leadership. The Disciples then drew his attention to the impressive Temple Structure and told them that not one stone
would be left on another that wont be thrown down. His Disciples asked him when will these things be, the sign of his coming, and
the end of the age. He answered by combining events that will happen both in their generation and in the distant future. He knew
what would happen both in 70AD and before his second coming. Many of the events in their generation and the last days would be
very similar and others wouldnt. What is known as full preterism tries to fit everything into one time frame. There are partial preterists that recognise that there will be a second coming followed by a final judgement. Unfortunately literalists fail to realise that Jewish understanding of scripture also recognises that there are also passages that use symbol, metaphor and poetry as well as literalism
both then and now.
Click to expand...
MY Response:
If you are claiming Christ was speaking of 2 events in Matthew 24 I absolutely agree.
He did indeed speak of the 70 AD Destruction.
But He spent more time on the Great Tribulation and specifies the Elect will go through it, the days will be shortened for the Elect's Sake (not the beheaded they are dead so it means SAVED before Tribulation begins), then He says AFTER TRIBULATION end to watch for signs (moon to blood, stars falling) and then from like lightning coming East to West so will be Christ Returning.
I pose a question here and am open to all answers. Because I am not sure about this.
3 nights ago this took place.
Normally, when I see what we call a falling star, it goes in a direction from east to west, south to north, etc.
But as I walking my property, extremely dark on the farm in the evenings. a star instead of going in directions we normally see, it looked as it fell straight down to the ground. But what caught my attention most, like a firework being shot off where you see the flickering sparks until the explosion, this was flickering like this straight down.
I've been researching past few days about this and cannot find any thing that seems to match.
I have never seen a star, what I think was a star, do this before.
It enters my thoughts constantly.
3 nights ago this took place.
Normally, when I see what we call a falling star, it goes in a direction from east to west, south to north, etc.
But as I walking my property, extremely dark on the farm in the evenings. a star instead of going in directions we normally see, it looked as it fell straight down to the ground. But what caught my attention most, like a firework being shot off where you see the flickering sparks until the explosion, this was flickering like this straight down.
I've been researching past few days about this and cannot find any thing that seems to match.
I have never seen a star, what I think was a star, do this before.
It enters my thoughts constantly.
The book of Revelation is exactly that, a hostile take over of the world by God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues brought by the two witnesses.
=====================================================================
“Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth." (Daniel 2:31-35)
"After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay. (Daniel 2:39-43)
=====================================================================
Head of Gold = Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon
Chest and Arms of Silver = Medo/Persian
Belly and Thighs of Bronze = Greece
Legs of Iron = Rome
Ten Toes of partly of Iron and partly baked clay = The last kingdom on earth, with the ten kings ruling and who give their power and authority to the beast. The ten toes of partly of Iron and partly of baked clay, refers to a weaker Rome and her religious system of Roman Catholicism.
The Rock cut out, but not by human hands = The Lord Jesus
The Rock (Jesus) strikes the feet of the statue which represents all human government, with the ten-toed kingdom being the last kingdom and the entire statue (representing all human government) is smashed to pieces and becomes like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind swept them away without leaving a trace, ergo, the end of all earthly governments never to be reinstated.
The Rock (Jesus) that strikes the statue, becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth (millennial kingdom) = the end of all human government and the beginning of Christ's thousand year reign on the earth.
The majority of the book of Revelation is about God dismantling all of the nations via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will decimate the majority of the earths population to establish Christs millennial kingdom. During this time of the Lord's thousand year reign on earth, Satan and his angels will have been shut up in the Abyss under the earth so that they can't deceive the nations during the Lord's millennial reign.
When Adam and Eve were created, God gave them rulership over the earth and all that is in it. But when they sinned by eating of the fruit which they were forbidden to do, the rulership of the earth fell to Satan, as is revealed below:
"Then the devil led Him up to a high place and showed Him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. “I will give You authority over all these kingdoms and all their glory,” he said. “For it has been relinquished to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish."
The kingdoms of the world and everything in it, transferred over to Satan when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. During the middle of the seven years, Satan and his angels will finally be thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth, which is the seventh trumpet/third woe. At the end of that last 3 1/2 years, Jesus will return with the church and His angels and Satan and his angels will be cast into the Abyss for a thousand years, which is also during the time of the Lord's earthly reign. A the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released and will deceive the nations who will march up around the holy city Jerusalem, where they will be destroyed by fire from heaven. Then Satan and his angels will be thrown into the lake of fire, where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown into at the end of the tribulation period, i.e. sometime after the seventh bowl has been poured out which completes God's wrath.
With the accumulation of the first four seals, a fourth of the earths population is killed:
First four seals:
"Then I looked and saw a pale horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.
Based on the earths current population, a fourth would be close to 2 billion people killed within the first 3 1/2 years.
The Sixth Trumpet:
"So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.
A fourth and a third = about 5/8's of the earths population killed during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. This does not include the fatalities that will result from the first three trumpets, nor the seven bowl judgments. Jesus summed up the decimation of mankind during the tribulation period with the following:
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." (Matt.24:19-21)
If those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth and therefore, no one left alive to go into the millennial kingdom. That's how terrible the tribulation period is going to be. By the time the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will have been completed, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated, probably leaving less than 10%.
During that seven year period, God is going to be cleaning house
=====================================================================
“Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth." (Daniel 2:31-35)
"After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay. (Daniel 2:39-43)
=====================================================================
Head of Gold = Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon
Chest and Arms of Silver = Medo/Persian
Belly and Thighs of Bronze = Greece
Legs of Iron = Rome
Ten Toes of partly of Iron and partly baked clay = The last kingdom on earth, with the ten kings ruling and who give their power and authority to the beast. The ten toes of partly of Iron and partly of baked clay, refers to a weaker Rome and her religious system of Roman Catholicism.
The Rock cut out, but not by human hands = The Lord Jesus
The Rock (Jesus) strikes the feet of the statue which represents all human government, with the ten-toed kingdom being the last kingdom and the entire statue (representing all human government) is smashed to pieces and becomes like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind swept them away without leaving a trace, ergo, the end of all earthly governments never to be reinstated.
The Rock (Jesus) that strikes the statue, becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth (millennial kingdom) = the end of all human government and the beginning of Christ's thousand year reign on the earth.
The majority of the book of Revelation is about God dismantling all of the nations via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will decimate the majority of the earths population to establish Christs millennial kingdom. During this time of the Lord's thousand year reign on earth, Satan and his angels will have been shut up in the Abyss under the earth so that they can't deceive the nations during the Lord's millennial reign.
When Adam and Eve were created, God gave them rulership over the earth and all that is in it. But when they sinned by eating of the fruit which they were forbidden to do, the rulership of the earth fell to Satan, as is revealed below:
"Then the devil led Him up to a high place and showed Him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. “I will give You authority over all these kingdoms and all their glory,” he said. “For it has been relinquished to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish."
The kingdoms of the world and everything in it, transferred over to Satan when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. During the middle of the seven years, Satan and his angels will finally be thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth, which is the seventh trumpet/third woe. At the end of that last 3 1/2 years, Jesus will return with the church and His angels and Satan and his angels will be cast into the Abyss for a thousand years, which is also during the time of the Lord's earthly reign. A the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released and will deceive the nations who will march up around the holy city Jerusalem, where they will be destroyed by fire from heaven. Then Satan and his angels will be thrown into the lake of fire, where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown into at the end of the tribulation period, i.e. sometime after the seventh bowl has been poured out which completes God's wrath.
With the accumulation of the first four seals, a fourth of the earths population is killed:
First four seals:
"Then I looked and saw a pale horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.
Based on the earths current population, a fourth would be close to 2 billion people killed within the first 3 1/2 years.
The Sixth Trumpet:
"So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.
A fourth and a third = about 5/8's of the earths population killed during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. This does not include the fatalities that will result from the first three trumpets, nor the seven bowl judgments. Jesus summed up the decimation of mankind during the tribulation period with the following:
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." (Matt.24:19-21)
If those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth and therefore, no one left alive to go into the millennial kingdom. That's how terrible the tribulation period is going to be. By the time the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will have been completed, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated, probably leaving less than 10%.
During that seven year period, God is going to be cleaning house
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