The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[cv5]

And join the wild speculating, false prophesying and fear mongering? I'd pray that all be spared that.

One's view of the end times doesn't determine one's salvation; that is solely on the basis of faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ. If there were a rapture, the preterist Christians would disappear from here along with the rest.

I have to temper what I said by also saying that I am very deeply concerned about a worst-case scenario for the preterists. And idealists for that matter.

 

[Dino246]

I have to temper what I said by also saying that I am very deeply concerned about a worst-case scenario for the preterists. And idealists for that matter.

What, in your view, is this "worst-case scenario"?

 

[DorothyMae]

How big was it?

Nothing that bad has happened since nor before.

The Mt of Olives was split in half?

Is that bad?

The light of the sun & moon were dimmed all day yet there appeared a different kind of light in the evening?

That’s not the description. But that same description was told to other nations in the OT and the solar bodies didn’t change then either.

All mankind came to understand that YHVH was the only God at that time and have not questioned his authority since?

Where does the Bible say that?

The flesh, tongues and eyes of the The Gentile invaders of Jerusalem rotted while they stood?

Where is that verse?

Panic struck those who warred against Jerusalem so that in terror they slew each other?

Those inside slew each other, those who had fought and killed the people of God.

The cities of the nations collapsed in an earthquake which was larger than any earthquake in human history?

Where is that verse?

All these things somehow escaped the notice of historians in 70AD.

While the eruption of Vesuvius which buried Herculaneum and devastated Pompeii in 79AD was recorded.[/QUOTE]

The book of Revelation is exactly that, a hostile take over of the world by God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues brought by the two witnesses.

=====================================================================

“Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth." (Daniel 2:31-35)

"After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay. (Daniel 2:39-43)

=====================================================================

Head of Gold = Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon

Chest and Arms of Silver = Medo/Persian

Belly and Thighs of Bronze = Greece

Legs of Iron = Rome

Ten Toes of partly of Iron and partly baked clay = The last kingdom on earth, with the ten kings ruling and who give their power and authority to the beast. The ten toes of partly of Iron and partly of baked clay, refers to a weaker Rome and her religious system of Roman Catholicism.

The Rock cut out, but not by human hands = The Lord Jesus

The Rock (Jesus) strikes the feet of the statue which represents all human government, with the ten-toed kingdom being the last kingdom and the entire statue (representing all human government) is smashed to pieces and becomes like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind swept them away without leaving a trace, ergo, the end of all earthly governments never to be reinstated.

The Rock (Jesus) that strikes the statue, becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth (millennial kingdom) = the end of all human government and the beginning of Christ's thousand year reign on the earth.



The majority of the book of Revelation is about God dismantling all of the nations via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will decimate the majority of the earths population to establish Christs millennial kingdom. During this time of the Lord's thousand year reign on earth, Satan and his angels will have been shut up in the Abyss under the earth so that they can't deceive the nations during the Lord's millennial reign.

When Adam and Eve were created, God gave them rulership over the earth and all that is in it. But when they sinned by eating of the fruit which they were forbidden to do, the rulership of the earth fell to Satan, as is revealed below:

"Then the devil led Him up to a high place and showed Him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. “I will give You authority over all these kingdoms and all their glory,” he said. “For it has been relinquished to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish."

The kingdoms of the world and everything in it, transferred over to Satan when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. During the middle of the seven years, Satan and his angels will finally be thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth, which is the seventh trumpet/third woe. At the end of that last 3 1/2 years, Jesus will return with the church and His angels and Satan and his angels will be cast into the Abyss for a thousand years, which is also during the time of the Lord's earthly reign. A the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released and will deceive the nations who will march up around the holy city Jerusalem, where they will be destroyed by fire from heaven. Then Satan and his angels will be thrown into the lake of fire, where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown into at the end of the tribulation period, i.e. sometime after the seventh bowl has been poured out which completes God's wrath.

With the accumulation of the first four seals, a fourth of the earths population is killed:

First four seals:
"Then I looked and saw a pale horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

Based on the earths current population, a fourth would be close to 2 billion people killed within the first 3 1/2 years.

The Sixth Trumpet:
"So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.

A fourth and a third = about 5/8's of the earths population killed during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. This does not include the fatalities that will result from the first three trumpets, nor the seven bowl judgments. Jesus summed up the decimation of mankind during the tribulation period with the following:

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." (Matt.24:19-21)

If those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth and therefore, no one left alive to go into the millennial kingdom. That's how terrible the tribulation period is going to be. By the time the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will have been completed, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated, probably leaving less than 10%.

During that seven year period, God is going to be cleaning house

First, I know what the dream Nebbie got means. None of that was realized in God forcibly taking over any place in a military action which is what you claim Revelation is saying. My question was when did God ever do this in the course of human history. The future is not history. If I ask you WHEN DID God do this is human history you cannot site your belief in Him doing this in the future as an example. Your need to site such an event in the past. I assume you have no examples and know, actually, that there are none.

Second, I know the dispensationalist view of revelation. Believed it all myself once. I no longer do and see the events in history as described by Josephus, who had not read Revelation we can assume but whose descriptions so match the real events in life it is remarkable.

You can still believe this is a future event as long as you base no real decision on that belief. If you make major decisions based on your faith in this, you will face disappointment.

 

[DorothyMae]

And we are still awaiting for just 1 single event that was mentioned to happen. We know the complete facts to the 70 AD Destruction, and not one single thing mentioned in Revelation can be assigned to what happened in 70 AD. Not a single written example matches anything we know from how Josephus explained.

So, how can a Book be used to fit one single event when NOTHING within that Book matches anything that happened from that event?

I know how, just read everything you have posted is how. You just make it up as you go!

You are joking right? The Fall of Bablyon, the city of Jerusalem is the biggest single event and you still do not see it? It was actually common knowledge that the predictions Jesus made in Matt 24 regarding the signs of the fall of Jerusalem were fulfilled in 70 AD. Signs and then the end of Jerusalem whereby the Christians escaped it by believing they needed to leave when the armies were surrounding the city. Jerusalem was an extremely wealthy city, the jewel of the middle east. THe book even says Bablyon is Jerusalem, the city where JEsus was crucified. How can you miss it?

 

[DorothyMae]

^ That's a definite hitting the nail with the head of the hammer!

There is John by 3 Church Fathers accounts he was placed in Patmos by Domitian, that would be around 94 AD, he wrote Revelations, Domitian died and John was released, then John remained a member of the Ephesus Church till he died around 100 AD.

That's 3 solid proofs that Nero did not put John in patmos, so Revelations clearly IS NOT about the 70 AD event!

There is only one church father who wrote that and the other two quoted him. That same church father wrote that JEsus died at 50, information that is plainly found in the Bible, he missed. There are other church fathers that said Dom. Nero sent John to Patmos at the same time Peter and Paul were killed.

And that is the only timing that makes sense. A 60 year old hale and hearty man posses a threat of sorts. A 90 year old man who cannot walk or talk poses none. John left Patmos and went to live in Ephesus with Mary the mother of JEsus who in your timing was no longer alive and John could not even care for his own needs at that age. There is also the history of John who indeed, as Revelation says, traveled and visited various places after he left the island. He could not do that in his 90s.

You actually have no solid proofs. Your church father was quoted by two others and was wrong about information that was not hard to know, the age of Jesus at his death.

 

[DorothyMae]

No, these are structural assumptions to assume your points of view. If you tell the same lie enough times it becomes a personal truth!

The date of the the birth of Polycarp was a "structural assumption" on my part??????? IF you think the birthdate of a man is something I thought up, what is the point of further discussion, Biker?

 

[cv5]

Nothing that bad has happened since nor before. Is that bad? That’s not the description. But that same description was told to other nations in the OT and the solar bodies didn’t change then either.
Where does the Bible say that?
Where is that verse?
Those inside slew each other, those who had fought and killed the people of God. Where is that verse?
While the eruption of Vesuvius which buried Herculaneum and devastated Pompeii in 79AD was recorded.

First, I know what the dream Nebbie got means. None of that was realized in God forcibly taking over any place in a military action which is what you claim Revelation is saying. My question was when did God ever do this in the course of human history. The future is not history. If I ask you WHEN DID God do this is human history you cannot site your belief in Him doing this in the future as an example. Your need to site such an event in the past. I assume you have no examples and know, actually, that there are none
God forcibly taking over in a military action you ask? Please read the book of Joshua from start to finish.

In fact I would back up to Numbers chapter 31.

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2“Take vengeance on the Midianites for the children of Israel. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.”
3So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm some of yourselves for war, and let them go against the Midianites to take vengeance for theLord on Midian. 4A thousand from each tribe of all the tribes of Israel you shall send to the war.”

Most of the questions you've asked can be answered by a beginner Bible student.
You obviously don't know your Bible I suggest you carefully study the contents.

 

[biker]

You are joking right? The Fall of Bablyon, the city of Jerusalem is the biggest single event and you still do not see it? It was actually common knowledge that the predictions Jesus made in Matt 24 regarding the signs of the fall of Jerusalem were fulfilled in 70 AD. Signs and then the end of Jerusalem whereby the Christians escaped it by believing they needed to leave when the armies were surrounding the city. Jerusalem was an extremely wealthy city, the jewel of the middle east. THe book even says Bablyon is Jerusalem, the city where JEsus was crucified. How can you miss it?

1. Is the USA the “Babylon the Great”? | Prophecies of Daniel
   www.propheciesofdaniel.com/is-the-usa-the-babylon-the-great
   Feb 19, 2013 · And sadly, if any one nation today epitomizes Babylon the Great, you’d have to say it is the USA. “All nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” (Revelation 18:3) No matter where you go on earth, American “entertainment” and commercial/material values are hailed above all others. But in God’s eyes, it’s fornication with Mammon and the lusts of this world, brought to its highest perfection by the merchants of this country.
   
   
   
2. The United States in Bible Prophecy | United States | Lamb ...
   christinprophecy.org/articles/the-united-states...
   “Babylon the great?” This brings us to the final and most widely used passage for identifying the U.S. in Bible prophecy. It is Revelation 18 where the destruction of “Babylon the great” is described. There is no doubt that the United States shares many similarities with the corrupt commercial empire described in this chapter.
   
   
   
3. Babylon U.S.A. – American Empire – The End Time Babylon is ...
   www.biblewatchman.com/babylonusa.htm
   Certainly God is plainly showing the world in these end days that the U.S. is the end-time Babylon of Revelation. We are the last end-time superpower like Babylon was the first. We are the last empire prophesied in Babylon by Daniel in (Dan.2 and 7) and of whom Babylon was the first empire.
   
   There's literally tons of examples why the USA is the prophesied Babylon.
   
   

 

[biker]

The date of the the birth of Polycarp was a "structural assumption" on my part??????? IF you think the birthdate of a man is something I thought up, what is the point of further discussion, Biker?

My post was not towards Polycarp, but your overall agenda.

 

[cv5]

You are joking right? The Fall of Bablyon, the city of Jerusalem is the biggest single event and you still do not see it? It was actually common knowledge that the predictions Jesus made in Matt 24 regarding the signs of the fall of Jerusalem were fulfilled in 70 AD. Signs and then the end of Jerusalem whereby the Christians escaped it by believing they needed to leave when the armies were surrounding the city. Jerusalem was an extremely wealthy city, the jewel of the middle east. THe book even says Bablyon is Jerusalem, the city where JEsus was crucified. How can you miss it?

There is so much error in what you say this going to take endless amounts of replies to straighten this out. What's worse most of your inquiries have already been liberally answered in the most perfunctory manner imaginable. You simply have not absorbed the facts.

The brutal fact is that Israel is not yet redeemed and gifted with a new heart of obedience. Nor will it be until the Great Tribulation actually takes place. Nobody on Christian chat with an honest heart would dare to declare that Israel has been redeemed to the God of their fathers according to the endless prophecies about this specific occurrence in the Bible.

 

[biker]

There is only one church father who wrote that and the other two quoted him. That same church father wrote that JEsus died at 50, information that is plainly found in the Bible, he missed. There are other church fathers that said Dom. Nero sent John to Patmos at the same time Peter and Paul were killed.

And that is the only timing that makes sense. A 60 year old hale and hearty man posses a threat of sorts. A 90 year old man who cannot walk or talk poses none. John left Patmos and went to live in Ephesus with Mary the mother of JEsus who in your timing was no longer alive and John could not even care for his own needs at that age. There is also the history of John who indeed, as Revelation says, traveled and visited various places after he left the island. He could not do that in his 90s.

You actually have no solid proofs. Your church father was quoted by two others and was wrong about information that was not hard to know, the age of Jesus at his death.

Wow, so you are now claiming that Irenaeus "Against Heresies" and Eusebius "Church History III.13.1" were not their own writings, but someone from 2018?

So you are basically calling these Church Fathers LIARS?

No wonder your argument is so weak. Even when you are clearly beat you just pop out another line of baloney.

 

[biker]

Which Church Father claimed Jesus died at age 50?

 

[biker]

We have the record of the Book of Revelation that John was on the Isle of Patmos (1:9), and there wrote the Apocalypse. In his Against Heresies Book III, at the end of chapter 3, Irenaeus says, “Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.” Trajan began to rule in A.D. 98, and John was alive among the people of Ephesus till that time and perhaps a little while after.

In Against Heresies Book V.30.3, Irenaeus writes (declining to try to identify what the number of the beast signifies), “for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, toward the end of Domitian’s reign.” Domitian died in A.D. 96.



With Eusebius (Church History III.13.1) and others we are obliged to place the Apostle's banishment to Patmos in the reign of the Emperor Domitian (81-96). After Domitian's death the Apostle returned to Ephesus during the reign of Trajan, and at Ephesus he died about A.D. 100 at a great age.



Which one of these Church Fathers claimed Jesus died at age 50?
Which one of these Church Fathers are LYING?

 

[biker]

However, the testimony of the Church Fathers is that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written by John near the end of the reign of Domitian in AD 96. According to them, John was banished by Domitian to the lonely Isle of Patmos, a desolate Greek island in the Aegean Sea only 11 square miles in area

I cannot find any Church Father claiming Nero put John into exile. The consensus all claim Domitian put John there.



This is rather interesting:
Preterism & the Date of the Apocalypse (Revelation)
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1487362/posts
Sep 19, 2005 · Not a single early source (within 500 years of John) places John's banishment under the reign of Nero, as preterists claim.

^
That claims NO ONE from John to the 6th Century claimed John was banished by Nero. 100% claimed John was banished by Domitian!

 

[DorothyMae]

Wow, so you are now claiming that Irenaeus "Against Heresies" and Eusebius "Church History III.13.1" were not their own writings, but someone from 2018?

So you are basically calling these Church Fathers LIARS?

No wonder your argument is so weak. Even when you are clearly beat you just pop out another line of baloney.

Uh, Irenaeus wrote that John was sent to Patmos at the later date, but also wrote that JEsus died in his 50s. Jesus was not 50 when he died but Irenaeus did not know that, apparently. Makes it difficult to trust his information on the other matter. Eusebius merely quoted /trusted Irenaeus and so did not write that from other information. Same with the third author. If person A write something and ten people quote him, it does not man 11 people support that view. One wrote it and the others just quote him. That makes it still 1 person's view.

Otherwise I have no idea where you get the above conclusion from what I wrote. I said none of what you say I said. Shall we quit, Biker? You are starting to falsely accuse me of saying that which I never even mentioned. And you refuse to admit that some things I said are, in fact, undisputed fact. Polycarp really was born in 69 AD. I did not make that up.

 

[cv5]

Wow, so you are now claiming that Irenaeus "Against Heresies" and Eusebius "Church History III.13.1" were not their own writings, but someone from 2018?

So you are basically calling these Church Fathers LIARS?

No wonder your argument is so weak. Even when you are clearly beat you just pop out another line of baloney.

The proponents of a late date have a far stronger case.

"As external evidence they point to the early church writers like Iraneus (Against Heresies 5.30.3), Victorinus of Pettau (Apocalypse 10.11), Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History 3.17-18), Clement of Alexandria (Quis Dives Salvetur 42), and Origen (Matthew 16.6) who all agree John wrote during the time of Domitian.1"

 

[DorothyMae]

First, I know what the dream Nebbie got means. None of that was realized in God forcibly taking over any place in a military action which is what you claim Revelation is saying. My question was when did God ever do this in the course of human history. The future is not history. If I ask you WHEN DID God do this is human history you cannot site your belief in Him doing this in the future as an example. Your need to site such an event in the past. I assume you have no examples and know, actually, that there are none
God forcibly taking over in a military action you ask? Please read the book of Joshua from start to finish.

In fact I would back up to Numbers chapter 31.

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2“Take vengeance on the Midianites for the children of Israel. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.”
3So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm some of yourselves for war, and let them go against the Midianites to take vengeance for theLord on Midian. 4A thousand from each tribe of all the tribes of Israel you shall send to the war.”

Most of the questions you've asked can be answered by a beginner Bible student.
You obviously don't know your Bible I suggest you carefully study the contents.

You believe that God, HImself, will forcibly take over the world in a military engagement. The above is not God taking over in a military engagement. God, not man is what you believe.

Or do you believe God will send some nation of people to take over the whole world? That is not what I heard anyone in the whole of dispensationalism say. This is what happened in the above example.

Again, where in the whole of human history has God (Jesus) even taken over in a military invasion manner a nation? WHen I took Israel for his own, it was not a military invasion. ALl who joined his family were volunteers. All who wanted to be his people left Egypt when the timing was ripe. All volunteers. No one at gun or sword point.

 

[DorothyMae]

The proponents of a late date have a far stronger case.

"As external evidence they point to the early church writers like Iraneus (Against Heresies 5.30.3), Victorinus of Pettau (Apocalypse 10.11), Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History 3.17-18), Clement of Alexandria (Quis Dives Salvetur 42), and Origen (Matthew 16.6) who all agree John wrote during the time of Domitian.1"

The proponents of an earlier day have a far far stronger case.

As external evidence you have only the writings of Iraneus who was quoted by Eusebius and Clement and Origen. SO one author who wrote that Jesus died in his 50s. How well did he know his history?

 

[biker]

Uh, Irenaeus wrote that John was sent to Patmos at the later date, but also wrote that JEsus died in his 50s. Jesus was not 50 when he died but Irenaeus did not know that, apparently. Makes it difficult to trust his information on the other matter. Eusebius merely quoted /trusted Irenaeus and so did not write that from other information. Same with the third author. If person A write something and ten people quote him, it does not man 11 people support that view. One wrote it and the others just quote him. That makes it still 1 person's view.

Otherwise I have no idea where you get the above conclusion from what I wrote. I said none of what you say I said. Shall we quit, Biker? You are starting to falsely accuse me of saying that which I never even mentioned. And you refuse to admit that some things I said are, in fact, undisputed fact. Polycarp really was born in 69 AD. I did not make that up.

I see you have cherry picked this one for your advantage.


Although it is sometimes claimed that Irenaeus believed Christ did not die until he was older than is conventionally portrayed, the bishop of Lyon simply pointed out that because Jesus turned the permissible age for becoming a rabbi (30 years old and above), he recapitulated and sanctified the period between 30 and 50 years old, [ citation needed ] as per the Jewish custom of periodization on life, and so touches the beginning of old age when one becomes 50 years old.

 

[cv5]

The proponents of an earlier day have a far far stronger case.

As external evidence you have only the writings of Iraneus who was quoted by Eusebius and Clement and Origen. SO one author who wrote that Jesus died in his 50s. How well did he know his history?

You say you know your history do you? OK....Describe for us the coin the Domitian struck, and how it relates to the dating book of Revelation.