The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

[zone]

The actual 'objection' of the Free Willers is ridiculous. They can not or will not recognize a distinction between intentionality and freedom. People have will - they intend to do things, they have goals, they have emotions. But who do you think made your muscles, bones, sinews and soul? What do you think it is in you that makes you WANT things, like things, hate things? Obviously it is the makeup of your being; your body, mind and spirit determine your actions by determining your capacities and desires. Just because someone wants to do something doesn't entail they could have wanted something else.

All Biblical arguments aside, 'free will' isn't even meaningful. It's just words strung together in a category error. It's like saying, "I slept very slowly." Abuse of language.

LOL! nice post.

 

[PS]

The actual 'objection' of the Free Willers is ridiculous. They can not or will not recognize a distinction between intentionality and freedom. People have will - they intend to do things, they have goals, they have emotions. But who do you think made your muscles, bones, sinews and soul? What do you think it is in you that makes you WANT things, like things, hate things? Obviously it is the makeup of your being; your body, mind and spirit determine your actions by determining your capacities and desires. Just because someone wants to do something doesn't entail they could have wanted something else.

All Biblical arguments aside, 'free will' isn't even meaningful. It's just words strung together in a category error. It's like saying, "I slept very slowly." Abuse of language.

No, it isn't an abuse of language at all. In fact you and Calvinists generally are abusing Jesus by making Him out to be a liar. Think about the parable of the Wedding Feast that Jesus gave to which everyone was invited and they all gave their excuses. It was their freewill choice not to go.

 

[psychomom]

But if God changes our will, why not change EVERYONE'S will, since Peter says that God wants everyone to be saved? 2 Peter 3:9.

Peter says that God wants EVERYONE to repent. Is God not powerful enough to change everyone's will? Or are you saying that God only changes who He wants, and Peter is lying?

to the 2 Peter verse, best to check the original Greek wording.
also, see: the whole counsel of God.

as to the rest...vessels of wrath to show His power,
...vessels of mercy to make known the riches of His glory. (Romans 9:22-23)

love you, superdave.
-ellie

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Personally, I don't look for good works. In fact, I don't look for gifts or even a sign. Scripture says that we shall know them according to the fruit:


I think that last line says it all.

The fruit of the spirit is the works we as Gods children are doing. if Christ provides water to the vine, fruit will be produced. Some vines will produce more fruit than others. But all will produce fruit.

Again the question must be asked of them. If we look at a vinyard, and ALL the vines have produced fruit. Some have much fruit. And some have very little fruit, With most being in the middle. Are not ALL the vines watered by Christ? And thus would not all the vines be saved? If not. again, how much fruit is needed for one to be saved?

 

[progressivenerdgirl]

LOL! nice post.

Thank you. I have to say though, I really need to work on my manners. My daddy would tan my hide if he heard me talking to people like this, 22 years old or not.

 

[tribesman]

Oh dear...I see that we need to quote good ole' George...for a change:

Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure.

George Whitefield to John Wesley

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who seeks God? Not one of the unregenerate.

Your right. God seeks us, He lets us know who he is, What he is and what he did. Then he asks us to trust him.

A drowning man can not save himself. he needs a savior. When the savior comes, he still has to chose to receive his help does he not?

The problem is. Many who are drowning do not realise they are in serious danger, and reject the savior who was sent.

 

[superdave5221]

Wow, anti-intellectualism dragon goes full bore. Goodbye.

Anti-intellectualism? How would you suppose we should discuss this, emotionally?

Hey Progressivenerdgirl, I have nothing against you. You seem like a nice person and I wish you only the best in Christian love. And I am NOT a Arminian. I have posted in the past my beliefs on this.

However, the debate over free will has been going on for centuries, and very intelligent and spiritual people have taken both sides of this issue.

When you post like you did in #146 where YOU claim to know the answers and where it is so CLEAR to you and those free willers must be stupid or abuse the language or something, then I definitely want to know what it is that you know.

Because I am still not clear on this. But if you are, then please educate me!

So far, you haven't been able to answer a few easy questions. And so, I am still waiting.

 

[tribesman]

Your right. God seeks us, He lets us know who he is, What he is and what he did. Then he asks us to trust him.

A drowning man can not save himself. he needs a savior. When the savior comes, he still has to chose to receive his help does he not?

The problem is. Many who are drowning do not realise they are in serious danger, and reject the savior who was sent.

I'd go a step further and say that we are already drowned. Dead in trespasses and sins (Eph.2:1-3). Then God, in His infinite mercy, revives, quickens and raises us up from the dead. He couldn't "ask" us whether we liked to be saved from death or not, He saved us out of His love because He knew we couldn't say "yes" to it anyway, as we were dead and lacked all ability of positive response. Once we realize who resurrected us from the dead and what we got saved from, joy and trust in the Savior follows.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The depravity of man ensures that salvation must be 100% the (finished) work of God alone. Not any "co-operation" between God and man. See Rom.8 & 9.

What co-operation is there when a man stands still and lets the savior do the work. Can the man be proud of his so called co-operation by allowing another one to do ALL the work for him? What would the man boast of? He would boast of all the things the man did to save him, it would be out focused, not self focused would it not?

The licentious boasts of self. I am not a bad sinner. I live a good life. I "fill in the blank)

The legalist boasts of self. I live a Holy Life, I do not sin, I go to church and do all these great works. I am not like the sinner.

where does the redeemed child of God boast of self? How can they? I am not eternally grateful because I chose Christ. I am eternally Grateful because Christ came to Earth. He lived the life I could not and he suffered the fate I DESERVE and will ALWAYS DESERVE, and he offered the gift of eternal life to me based on ALL that he did. If he did not do the work. I would have nothign to place my faith in. I would have no hope. Thus I can not in any means place any boasting in myself, because I did nothing to save myself.

As Jesus said, it is the work of God we believe in the one he sent, Whoever believes in me will not be put to shame, Whoever believes in me will have eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does God need to learn something before He wills something to happen?

He may only "foreknow" things, not preordain or predetermine anything?

good point, But he preordains or predetermines based on what he foreknows correct?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Adam and Eve are examples of free will. I will leave you to decide if God was 'unfair' but their rejection of God and their following of Satan was entirely of their own freewill. The whole of Calvinism is un-scriptural right from the beginning.

Faith takes us to the doctor, the doctor makes us whole. Not even the physician can 'heal himself'. Jesus saves, we go to the Lord in faith believing.

I disagree that the whole of calvanism is unscriptural. they are our brothers. They just disagree how we get to the same point.

 

[Tintin]

God is sovereign, we have free will. This is the Divine Paradox. God doesn't willfully want anyone to go to hell. He reaches out to all but some choose to reject him and his grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Spot on bro. There is a big crowd of "evangelicals" out there thinking they are "perfect" and "sin free" (or at least close to) just because they don't murder, fornicate, steal, gamble, cuss, shoplift, get drunk, do illegal drugs etc etc. Go ask these same people about say their thoughts (which are coming from their hearts) and confront them with if they are really living up to God's actual standard as set forth in His holy, good and just law in all, or not, and you'll hear a lot of excuses, redefinitions and justifying. It all stinks pride. Better is to confess and be absolved. Churches who have not such an order have a huge problem.

Interesting how the pharisees thought the same. Yet if you call them a modern day pharisee, they get angry, and do things like "ignore you" lol Spot on in your reply Tribe

 

[tribesman]

good point, But he preordains or predetermines based on what he foreknows correct?

I don't find enough scriptural evidence for that position. It is a matter of how GOD wills it.

Rom.9

[9] For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
[10] And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
[11] ( For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
[12] It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[14] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[PS]

I disagree that the whole of calvanism is unscriptural. they are our brothers. They just disagree how we get to the same point.

It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

NOT the word of man, least of all a man called Calvin. The Pharisees were the same.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The actual 'objection' of the Free Willers is ridiculous. They can not or will not recognize a distinction between intentionality and freedom. People have will - they intend to do things, they have goals, they have emotions. But who do you think made your muscles, bones, sinews and soul? What do you think it is in you that makes you WANT things, like things, hate things? Obviously it is the makeup of your being; your body, mind and spirit determine your actions by determining your capacities and desires. Just because someone wants to do something doesn't entail they could have wanted something else.

All Biblical arguments aside, 'free will' isn't even meaningful. It's just words strung together in a category error. It's like saying, "I slept very slowly." Abuse of language.

This makes no sense.

God makes two people the same. They both chose to reject ALL of his commands. Because of this, They are seperated from God. God thought loves them so much, He sends them both a way to be redeemed to him. One choses to say yes, one choses to say no.

so tell me. How can either man boast of anything? One is lost because he said no. One is saved because he said yes. God still gets the glory, In fact he gets glory in both cases. The one he saved, he gets glory because his love purchased the guys freedom. In the other case he gets the glory, because he purchased his freedom also. His love then is proven throughout all his creation. and no one can deny it.

 

[tribesman]

...God makes two people the same. They both chose to reject ALL of his commands. Because of this, They are seperated from God. God thought loves them so much, He sends them both a way to be redeemed to him. One choses to say yes, one choses to say no...

The problem is that the will of natural, fallen man is only good for saying "no" to God, it cannot say "yes" until he's regenerated.

1Cor.2

[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved; )

Gal.5

[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And if you are not a determinist or an atheist or a Pagan you are an Arminian. These options are exhaustive. It does not mean you worship Arminius, for the sake of children's tears, it means you accept a free will and cooperatavist view of salvation.

what kind of answer is this? So Scripture tells us we have to be one of those things> those are men or doctrines of men. No different than calvin.

Do you want to follow men or God. I am not an arminian because I believe eternal life is eternal and can not be lost. I am not a calvanist, because I believe God offers his free gift to all mankind.

Most of the points of both doctrines are not important when it comes to eternal life. I dise with calvanists when it comes to the gospel and eternal life. I reject arminianism because they base salvation on self.

I recommend you study what someone believes before you make accusations.

The problem with many in the church today is they are following these doctrines of men. in doing this. they put a label on everyone. And use these labels to argue against them, and can not ever understand what they believe.

 

[PS]

The problem is that the will of natural, fallen man is only good for saying "no" to God, it cannot say "yes" until he's regenerated.

You are talking about salvation there, but to be saved we need to come to Jesus.