The Adamic Problem

[Endoscopy]

Augustine is also one of the big reasons that there is even a Catholic church. During the tribulation all the illegitimate children of Rome will return to the fold--including these Calvinists.

The early elders were dealing with many diverse Biblical opinions. They created the creeds between 212 and 500 defining the belief a Christian must have. Everything outside of the creeds is to agree to disagree. The many gospel preaching denominations are proof of this. Calvinism and Armenianism plus variations in between are preached in them. Both Calvinism and Armenianism have lengthy arguments covering each of the 5 points annotated with scripture. This makes it an agree to disagree difference of opinion.

Stating that either one is not Biblical is very erroneous!!

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Stating that either one is not Biblical is very erroneous!!

But you know what? Sticking with the Bible is very biblical! Using man-made creeds, not so much.

 

[Endoscopy]

But you know what? Sticking with the Bible is very biblical! Using man-made creeds, not so much.

Every church and denomination has a doctrinal statement of their view of the Bible. Creeds are doctrinal statements created by the early elders. If you want to reject them please provide proof of where they are wrong.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Every church and denomination has a doctrinal statement of their view of the Bible. Creeds are doctrinal statements created by the early elders. If you want to reject them please provide proof of where they are wrong.

I don't care to get into a discussion about man-made creeds, especially the ones that lead some to embrace errors such as Calvinism and Arminianism.

A simple statement that we believe the Word of God is preserved is not a Creed. The Bible is our creed, except where it isn't. We don't build any doctrines on 'Yea, hath God said?' uttered by the serpent in the garden.

 

[Endoscopy]

Addendum
I have attended church services where the church and denomination felt so strongly about the Apostles Creed that part of the opening of the service the congregation repeated it. I go with the importance of the creeds!!

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I go with the importance of the creeds!!

I go with the importance of the preserved King James Bible.

 

[Endoscopy]

I don't care to get into a discussion about man-made creeds, especially the ones that lead some to embrace errors such as Calvinism and Arminianism.

A simple statement that we believe the Word of God is preserved is not a Creed. The Bible is our creed, except where it isn't. We don't build any doctrines on 'Yea, hath God said?' uttered by the serpent in the garden.

Please provide proof of of errors in Armenianism and Calvinism. You ignore the history of the creeds. They were created between 212 and 500 when Bibles were very expensive and rare. It wasn't until the printing press was invented that Bibles became cheap and available easily. You are rejecting how the gospel was given to those who were not Christians! Creeds plus selected Bible verses that were memorized is what was used.

Why do you ignore the history of the early church??

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Everything comes back in the end to this: Did Adam sin freely? If you answer yes, then you will be told, his fall was not foreseen. If you answer no, then you will be told, he is not guilty.

Pierre Bayle, Dictionnaire, Jansenius, G

Yes Adam sinned freely and his fall was foreseen.
1 Peter 1:18-21
King James Version(KJV)

18.)Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;

19.)But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20.) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21.) Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Please provide proof of of errors in Armenianism and Calvinism. You ignore the history of the creeds. They were created between 212 and 500 when Bibles were very expensive and rare. It wasn't until the printing press was invented that Bibles became cheap and available easily. You are rejecting how the gospel was given to those who were not Christians! Creeds plus selected Bible verses that were memorized is what was used.

Why do you ignore the history of the early church??

The only history I need is contained in the Book of Acts and the Epistles. After that it all went down hill. I don't need to study error when I have God's preserved truth.

 

[Endoscopy]

I go with the importance of the preserved King James Bible.

The KJV is very flawed.

First it is 400 years old and language changes over time. Kill then meant premeditated murder for example.

Kjv
Thou shalt not kill.
NIV
You shall not murder.

Other KJV Issues

https://ehrmanblog.org/problems-with-the-language-of-the-king-james-version/

https://newrepublic.com/article/107222/making-it-new

http://www.bibletexts.com/topics/kjv.htm

http://www.equip.org/article/is-your-modern-translation-corrupt/

http://www.hickoryhammockbaptist.org/kjva1.html

https://www.gotquestions.org/different-gospel.html

The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible: An Interview with Mark Ward
Jonathan Petersen
March 13, 2018

https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2...pJobID=1362532267&spReportId=MTM2MjUzMjI2NwS2


KJV Issues
For example, because of the changes in the English language, a number of words occur in the King James that make zero sense to most people today. These include the following nuggets that you will find scattered here and there:

Almug
Algum
Charashim
Chode
Cracknels
Gat
Habergeon
Hosen
Kab
Ligure
Neesed
Nusings
Ouches
ring-straked
sycamyne
trow
wimples, ….

The King James translators also translated some animal names into animals that in fact we now have pretty good reason for thinking don’t actually exist:

unicorn (Deut. 33:17)
satyr (Isa 13:21);
dragon (Deut 32:33) (for serpent)
cockatrice (Isa 11:8),
arrowsnake (Gen 49:11, in the margin).

Moreover,, there are phrases that simply don’t make sense any more to modern readers: Phrases that no longer make sense:

ouches of gold (Exod. 28:11);
collops of fat (Job 15:25);
naughty figs (Jer 24:2);
ien with (Jer. 3:2);
the ground is chapt (Jer 14:4);
brazen wall” (Jer 15:20);
rentest thy face (Jer. 4:30);
urrain of the cattle (Exod. 9:2);

And there are whole sentences that are confusing at best, virtually indecipherable (or humorous)

And Jacob sod pottage (Gen 25:29)
And Mt. Sinai was altogether on a smoke (Exoc. 19:18)
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (Ps. 5:6)
I trow not (Luke 17:9)
We do you to wit of the grace of God (2 Cor. 8:1)
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels (2 Cor. 6:12)
He who letteth will let (2 Thes 2:7)
The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd (Eccles. 12:11)


Other sentences make sense, but would today be considered somewhat problematic – at least for the sacred Scripture. My favorite is the one that refers to a man who: “Pisseth against the wall:…. 1 Sam 25:22, 34, I Kings 14:10!

 

[Endoscopy]

So if you hold fast to the KJV you have to accept these flaws created by 400 years of time plus the misunderstanding of the translators ignorance of animals and other issues.

 

[Hevosmies]

The only history I need is contained in the Book of Acts and the Epistles. After that it all went down hill. I don't need to study error when I have God's preserved truth.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Enter Augustine

 

[Lillywolf]

"Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to the following conclusions: 1. The rebellion of Satan and the fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by God. 2. Those who would become the people of God, the elect, were foreknown and foreordained by God. 3. The crucifixion of Christ, as atonement for God’s people, was foreknown and foreordained by God."

[---]
So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s perspective, it does not make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise, to paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?

The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation.

In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23).

The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that. The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind ... [...]

SOURCE of excerpts: PDF LINK “If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?” From “GotQuestions.org”

 

[posthuman]

Could the Adam have capacity to exercise a real choice? When his consciousness was not informed by the knowledge of good or evil, obedience or disobedience, to an ultimatum ?

Adam was not deceived, 1 Tim 2:14
would ignorance constitute deception?

 

[posthuman]

"faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

It's too bad you can't see the simple things in favor of your vaulted wisdom.

Proverbs 20:12
The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

and the Word of God also comes from God.

which of these is our doing? none.

 

[Hevosmies]

Proverbs 20:12
The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

and the Word of God also comes from God.

which of these is our doing? none.

Interesting. You cant hear, unless God gives you an ear to hear huh?

See remember posthuman I said you are my favorite calvinist. This is why. What a stand up guy. Bringing scripture to the table.

 

[preacher4truth]

Sola Stupidus

That's immature, unChristian, and callow but status quo for you, unfortunately.

 

[Hevosmies]

@posthuman could you answer my question:

Why does the Bible say God wants ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. BUT then doesnt give all men the ears to hear?

Is there any verses in the bible that reconcile these two things?

 

[preacher4truth]

I suppose you would have to plug your ears and close your eyes and murmur slander in order to NOT HEAR and not try to understand the Truth.

But like you said, it is pretty simple.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation doesn't come from the good that YOU do. It doesn't come from your repentance. It doesn't come from your faith. It doesn't come because you are righteous.

Salvation is the gift of God.

The fruit of this Salvation is Repentance, Faith, Righteousness, etc...

How can you rightly divide the Word of Scripture and not come to these conclusions???

Unless you have not yet come to Christ....

Good job my brother, that is exactly correct, from line one to the every end.

The rejection of the Gospel on here via the choosing of self, the "God chose me because I did good this, good that, pleased him &c" (to ad nauseam) all the things that point to themselves, they had their own faith and "exercised it" is utterly ridiculous, unbiblical, and is not Gospel truth. The other glaring thing is all that is to their credit, to their boasting, but they cannot see it yet it is clear as day. It is in fact fruit of their false gospel.

Anyhow, you nailed it.

 

[Hevosmies]

The rejection of the Gospel on here via the choosing of self, the "God chose me because I did good this, good that, pleased him &c" (to ad nauseam) all the things that point to themselves, they had their own faith and "exercised it" is utterly ridiculous, unbiblical, and is not Gospel truth. The other glaring thing is all that is to their credit, to their boasting, but they cannot see it yet it is clear as day. It is in fact fruit of their false gospel.

Anyhow, you nailed it.

I cant understand this: How is responding to the gospel BOASTING? HOW? When has anyone boasted about being saved from the sea when they are drowning? "AND I TOOK THE ROPE MAN, I TOOK IT AND HELD ON TO IT MAN I SAVED MYSELF FROM DROWNING". - said nobody ever

Also could you answer me: How can you say to so many people we preach the wrong gospel, when in fact its the same gospel I have heard calvinists preach many many times. A.k.a Romans 3:21-26 : 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 ??