The Adamic Problem

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preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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#42
Calvinism has no biblical logic whatsoever . . . or should I say, it is built upon the rational thinking of man apart from God's thinking. It is designed by the wise man

How dare a capricious god command a man to keep a law and then crush him because he is unable. But our God is a loving God Who provided Himself to make atonement for sinful man.

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (I Corinthians 2:4).

God used Paul through the power of the Holy Spirit to evangelize much of Asia Minor and to build churches to the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Calvinist may not suggest that his ways and his thoughts are not equal with God's, but they prove by their actions and teachings that they are at least equal with His thoughts and clearly understand His ways.

People are still being saved today because of the witness of a family member or even a complete stranger. People are being saved because foolish and base men of this world are willing to deliver the message of love and forgiveness to his sinful neighbor.

You can bet there are Calvinists the world over that are shaking their heads over some people that get saved. "I didn't think that cad had a chance, how is he elected?' They are so pitiful and confounded.

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" (I Corinthians 1:27).
How dare God give us 10 commandments we couldn't keep! LOL!
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#43
There, fixed it for you! :ROFL:
The brother posted a long topic refuting calvinism and you have not done nothing to debunk his OP.

Maybe you just werent predestinated to do so.

The israelites were asked to make brick but were given no straw.
HOW is this different from commanding people to repent if they CANT unless God grants the gift of repentance? its a useless command, its up to God anyway, God grants repentance to whom He wills in calvinism, NO REASON to tell anyone to repent. EVER. But why be consistent, they dont roll like that in Geneva.

 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
8,044
1,698
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#44
The brother posted a long topic refuting calvinism and you have not done nothing to debunk his OP.
His false gospel and unbiblical examination have been thoroughly refuted, as well as your gospel of you did something good and then God chose you. Yet you mock God choosing based on nothing good in a person -- LOL!!!!!!!!!

Maybe you just werent predestinated to do so.
Negative.

The israelites were asked to make brick but were given no straw.
Something they could accomplish.

HOW is this different from commanding people to repent if they CANT unless God grants the gift of repentance? its a useless command, its up to God anyway, God grants repentance to whom He wills in calvinism, NO REASON to tell anyone to repent. EVER. But why be consistent, they dont roll like that in Geneva.
Apples and oranges showing your inherent inability to properly and rightly divide the word; 2 Timothy 2:15.

No man can repent, it comes from God, as he grants that and faith to whom he wills. You just don't think that's fair so you made up your own golden calf.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
8,044
1,698
113
#45
Calvinism has no biblical logic whatsoever . . . or should I say, it is built upon the rational thinking of man apart from God's thinking. It is designed by the wise man

How dare a capricious god command a man to keep a law and then crush him because he is unable. But our God is a loving God Who provided Himself to make atonement for sinful man.

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (I Corinthians 2:4).

God used Paul through the power of the Holy Spirit to evangelize much of Asia Minor and to build churches to the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Calvinist may not suggest that his ways and his thoughts are not equal with God's, but they prove by their actions and teachings that they are at least equal with His thoughts and clearly understand His ways.

People are still being saved today because of the witness of a family member or even a complete stranger. People are being saved because foolish and base men of this world are willing to deliver the message of love and forgiveness to his sinful neighbor.

You can bet there are Calvinists the world over that are shaking their heads over some people that get saved. "I didn't think that cad had a chance, how is he elected?' They are so pitiful and confounded.

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" (I Corinthians 1:27).
That has to be one of the most absurd straw man and baseless accusations I've seen on here. Surely in your crudeness you can one up the above nonsense and make even more bizarre inaccuracies and false accusations? Yes, I'm certain that you can.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
2,835
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#46
His false gospel and unbiblical examination have been thoroughly refuted, as well as your gospel of you did something good and then God chose you. Yet you mock God choosing based on nothing good in a person -- LOL!!!!!!!!!
False gospel? Now thats a strong accusation.

I've never said calvinists preach a false gospel or arent saved. But you say that no man can repent, it comes from God. WHY does God command us to repent then? Just give the gift of repentance to them and they'll repent. SERIOUSLY? Thats like God being mad at Himself for not giving the gift of repentance to people, since He already knows people have no ability to do so, unless its granted to them.

What kind of nonsense is that? Im seriously asking, is there any answer to this? Why command things of people who have no ability or desire to do so, and its up to GOD to fix it, and He wont give it to majority of people, so whats the problem here?
 

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
Sep 9, 2018
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#47
False gospel? Now thats a strong accusation.

I've never said calvinists preach a false gospel or arent saved. But you say that no man can repent, it comes from God. WHY does God command us to repent then? Just give the gift of repentance to them and they'll repent. SERIOUSLY? Thats like God being mad at Himself for not giving the gift of repentance to people, since He already knows people have no ability to do so, unless its granted to them.

What kind of nonsense is that? Im seriously asking, is there any answer to this? Why command things of people who have no ability or desire to do so, and its up to GOD to fix it, and He wont give it to majority of people, so whats the problem here?
Jeanny Calvin would no doubt have burned me at the stake. They guy he barbecued simply disagreed with him on a point of the Trinity. What more me showing what kind of a heretic he is.

I bet P4T would like to shove me in a vat of boiling oil as well.

Them Calvinists sure do get angry quick!
 

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
Sep 9, 2018
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#48
Refuted? Huh? All I saw was a bunch of name-calling and telling me how hateful I am. Refutation? Not so much. Of course, there was the one attempt to steer me toward extrabiblical creeds written by uninspired men which were the 'restored gospel' of Jesus Christ. I think they are secret Mormons.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
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#49
Am I being too simplistic? Why could Adam not have had a free choice and God, being outside time, simply knew what Adam’s free decision was? God could still go ahead with the human project, because He knows He can bring it to a good end.
Could the Adam have capacity to exercise a real choice? When his consciousness was not informed by the knowledge of good or evil, obedience or disobedience, to an ultimatum ?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#50
Could the Adam have capacity to exercise a real choice? When his consciousness was not informed by the knowledge of good or evil, obedience or disobedience, to an ultimatum ?
Are you saying Adam didnt have a free choice because he didnt have knowledge of good and evil? Interesting.
 

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
Sep 9, 2018
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#51
Are you saying Adam didnt have a free choice because he didnt have knowledge of good and evil? Interesting.
I'm wondering about her fondness of using 'the Adam', 'the Christ' . . . it is as if she does not believe these are literal people, but rather parabolic representations of principles.
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
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#52
Could the Adam have capacity to exercise a real choice? When his consciousness was not informed by the knowledge of good or evil, obedience or disobedience, to an ultimatum ?
A profound question!
For anything to make sense, we have to assume that Adam and Eve understood that they must not eat of the tree. Eve certainly seemed to understand this, for when questioned by the serpent, with his ‘Did God say?’... she gave a good reply.
So, what does it mean to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? I am guessing here, but knowledge conveys experience, think ‘Adam knew his wife Eve, and she conceived’ , so knowing evil means experiencing it. They already had knowledge of good, but now they had knowledge of evil too. And this knowledge is corrupting.
So I see no reason why the choice was not a free choice.
I also see no contradiction in God knowing what this choice would be.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
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#53
Are you saying Adam didnt have a free choice because he didnt have knowledge of good and evil? Interesting.
No more so than would a child, unaware of the magnitude , as in action and re-action, were someone to command them to definitively obey an edict under penalty, as in lets say the case of the Adam and Eve, death.

For instance, the first people were told, don't do this. And yet, that which they were not suppose to do was installed into paradise by their creator. And it bore fruit, knowledge, of right and wrong, or, good and evil.
Being Adam and Eve were in every sense joined in spirit with their creator, and not possessed of the knowledge of wrongness, guilt, or fear. If they were not meant to eat of the tree, why did God plant it?
If they were not meant to eat of the tree and suffer the repercussions, how did the enemy of righteousness, Satan, enter into paradise? He can't hide his presence from an omniscient creator of himself. Even clad as a serpent.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
39,672
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#54
Eve ate of the tree, and Adam said I will die with you.
I ate of the tree, and Jesus said I will die for you.
Adam didn't sin he transgressed. If I read my bible right
Probably not.......

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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#55
Eve ate of the tree, and Adam said I will die with you.
I ate of the tree, and Jesus said I will die for you.
Adam didn't sin he transgressed. If I read my bible right
Nope, you didn't eat of the tree, you were already dead in sin, being in Adam; Romans 5, and under wrath like the rest of mankind; Ephesians 2:3.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
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#56
A profound question!
For anything to make sense, we have to assume that Adam and Eve understood that they must not eat of the tree. Eve certainly seemed to understand this, for when questioned by the serpent, with his ‘Did God say?’... she gave a good reply.
So, what does it mean to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? I am guessing here, but knowledge conveys experience, think ‘Adam knew his wife Eve, and she conceived’ , so knowing evil means experiencing it. They already had knowledge of good, but now they had knowledge of evil too. And this knowledge is corrupting.
So I see no reason why the choice was not a free choice.
I also see no contradiction in God knowing what this choice would be.
Was it a reasoned answer that Eve provided the serpent? Or did she repeat what she'd been told by Adam?
Genesis 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat the fruit from the trees of the garden,3 Except the fruit from the tree which is in the middle of the garden. God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.

Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and blessing and calamity you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Adam and Eve were both naked and were not ashamed, as we're told in the Genesis 2 scripture. How did Satan know God's commandment to Adam concerning the tree of knowledge?

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle and crafty than any living creature of the field which the Lord God had made. And he [Satan] said to the woman, Can it really be that God has said, You shall not eat from every tree of the garden?(A)
(*A cross reference)Revelation 12:9-11
And the huge dragon was cast down and out—that age-old serpent, who is called the Devil and...)


I've considered the Genesis factor for some time. And I always return to the Book of Job and the trials he suffered, horrific impacts to his psyche, his emotions, his life itself. All of those unimaginable things that he suffered. May none of us know those things in our own life, amen. And due to Satan speaking with God and proposing a wager against the depth of Job's commitment and faith to the Father.
Satan, we're told led a rebellion in Heaven, the first paradise. He and 1/3rd of Heaven's angels thought they could overcome their creator? And Satan could take his place? When as a Cherubim he was and remains incapable of being a creator, thought he could take the throne and the creator's place?
Lucifer, light bringer, called Satan after his fall from Heaven. The angel of music. That first and most beautiful, most intelligent of the emissaries, angli, angels, to the earth refused to serve humans? And rebelled against the Omniscient Father, creator of the Heaven's and the Earth and all things. Including the angels. [Ezekiel 28:13-15 ]

The war was lost and Satan and that 1/3rd of his angel army were cast down to the earth before the creation of the first people. Why was Hell created to receive them all at the end of days,whenever God ordains that to be? Why were they not let to be "un-created" by God for their sin? Why were they and their wickedness and the sin ego they possessed let not only to live after losing the war in Heaven but instead were let to fall to the paradise place that was the new earth. And there lead the new created first humans to fall.

I believe it all transpired in Genesis to be the global human first wager between God and Lucifer and the 1/3rd that were all let to live as specially gifted by God, Satan being lord of this world and only by God's permission, actually serves in his plotting here to lead us to seek reunion with the Father. How many prisoners in that earthly Hell of prison have found their way to Christ?
One woman in Texas was a notable testimony in that regard. She had murdered people viciously in her early years. Arrested, found guilty and sentenced to death by lethal injection. While on death row she found Christ. And when then Governor George W. Bush Jr. refused to commute her sentence to life without parole, she was put to death as ordered. Guards wept at her loss.
Because she had become a shining, literally because I watched a documentary about her while she was alive and interviewed in prison, and the woman glowed in her union with God's holy spirit. Genuine peace and happiness that lived on her inside and shone forth without.

Satan walks the earth like a hungry lion seeking souls to devour. We're warned of this. Warned to put on the whole armor of God to protect against the slings and arrows of this world's darkness. All of that adversary of righteousness. An yet, he has an audience with his creator, the one he plotted against, that cast him to the new earth after losing the war in Heaven, and reaches an agreement concerning the slings and arrows he's allowed to aim at dear Job. All to test Job's faith and in Satan's mind win a bet with God.

It all happens because before our beginning God let Lucifer live.

God tells the Christian of today and since Jesus' blood inked the new covenant, that he knew us, and chose us to be in him, before he created the world. That would be before he created Adam and Eve.

John 1:3
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.


Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Isaiah 45
5"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD,and there is no other,
7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#57
You basically stated the same thing 7times.

And as I can see, you are trying to dance around, saying "it does not have to be so, we do not know how it can be, you just need to invent some other option", but you gave no other usable system. Please, give. Until that, its just pure sophism and throwing formally logical statements without any content.

1. Everyone seemed to understand my point except you.

2. That's why I stated the same point 7 different ways... so you couldn't pretend to misunderstand it.

3. Since everyone seemed to understand my point except you.... your charge of "sophism" isn't enough to bait me to argue just so you'll have something to do.

Later.
:)





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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#58
1. Everyone seemed to understand my point except you.

2. That's why I stated the same point 7 different ways... so you couldn't pretend to misunderstand it.

3. Since everyone seemed to understand my point except you.... your charge of "sophism" isn't enough to bait me to argue just so you'll have something to do.

Later.
:)





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...
Ok and again you said nothing. No content. No reaction to my OP.

You seem to like a position of a profesor who criticizes his students, but does not give any solution to postulated problems, only defines the form of solutions, but has none.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#59
Calvinism has no biblical logic whatsoever . . . or should I say, it is built upon the rational thinking of man apart from God's thinking. It is designed by the wise man
This is exactly what it is. Thats why most speak the same and sound the same, their "what is the gospel" videos online are so filled with theological fancy words, a regular joe wont even understand them.

Philosophy and human wisdom. Beware lest anyone SPOIL you with that!

By the way: Do you know if calvinists are trained in those reformed theological cemetaries on how to speak? They always sound the same, same tone of voice, same rhythm, its like they are mind controlled units, ITS scary.
 

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
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#60
By the way: Do you know if calvinists are trained in those reformed theological cemetaries on how to speak? They always sound the same, same tone of voice, same rhythm, its like they are mind controlled units, ITS scary.
Well, as followers of men they all mimic their teachers . . . I think the Latin word for it is Sola Stupidus.