The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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brightfame52

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The words "for us" in Hebrews 9:12 were added to the text by translators.

Here is the verse as it appears in various versions ...


New International Version:

Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.


English Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


King James Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us] the words appear in italics in the KJV to alert the reader that the words were added by the translators.


New King James Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


New American Standard Bible:

Hebrews 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption.


American Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


English Revised Version:

Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


International Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption.
All that for nothing, the KJV translators added us, and it was appropriate, it did no violence to the text. You wasting time. The us, or as the NIV stated our, is the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16
 

ForestGreenCook

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The record in Ezekiel tells us what the wheels are.

Ezekiel 1:

15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.


According to vss 20,21, the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels and according to vs 12, whither the spirit was to go, they [the living creatures] went

The wheels are not comprised of people.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
Do you consider yourself "a living creature"? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within you? It is the same in Ezk.
 

ForestGreenCook

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I believe Holy Spirit worked in believers under OC. I also believe that after Day of Pentecost, there was a change.

Let's go through some Scripture and see if what we have in our day and time (after Day of Pentecost) is the same as what was available prior to Day of Pentecost:

In Numbers 11 (and I'd recommend you read the full chapter), we read that God took of the spirit which was upon Moses and put it on 70 of the elders of the children of Israel:

Numbers 11:16-17 And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Is that how Holy Spirit is received in our day and time when a person is born again?


In Psalm 51, David prayed God to not remove Holy Spirit from him:

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Do you now claim that God takes away the Holy Spirit from the born again believer?


In John 16, Jesus told His disciples that the Comforter (the Holy Spirit - John 14:26) could not come unless/until Jesus went away:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


In Acts 1, Jesus told His disciples to remain in Jerusalem and wait for the promise of the Father:

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.


In Hebrews 11, God tells us that wonderful men and women of faith who lived prior to Day of Pentecost did not receive the promise:

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise





I do not disregard Isaiah 63:11 (Post #162). Go through the Scriptures I provided above in this post.

God does not take of the Holy Spirit upon a believer to place upon others as He did with Moses and the 70 elders.

Did the Lord Jesus Christ lie to His disciples when He told them Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you (John 16:7)?

Each born again believer is born again of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23) ... a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Cor 5:17) ... sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph 1:13-14).

In our day and time, do you pray (as David did) "take not thy holy spirit from me"?





Unraveling the twisted logic of this statement is a task for God. Please pray to God "by the freedom he gave to [ you ] to choose" that He will reveal to you the truth of His Holy Word so that you put aside your nonsense and learn what it is that He has so graciously provided.


Ephesians 4:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ
The born again old testament saints having obtained a good report through faith (spiritual faith, being a "fruit of the Holy Spirit") were not made perfect until the coming promise of the crucifiction of Jesus Christ.

In this day and time, as well as the old testament saints, who are born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, are said to have the Spirit upon them, guiding them in the ways that God directs. Luke 2:9.

The Holy Spirit, which is one function of the Godhead as the quickening Spirit, also in itself, has two other functions; The revelator, and the comforter, which was given on the day of pentecost.
 

ForestGreenCook

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The atonement covers the sins of anyone that follows, walks with, and puts their faith, trust, and rest in the Lord Jesus Christ. When we have Christ atonement covering us, God sees not us but Christ's righteousness covering us. The result: we are judged not guilty by reason of Christ's atonement. Amen. Hallelujah.
The only ones that "follows, walks with, and puts their faith, trust, and rest in the Lord Jesus Christ" are his elect that he gave to his Son to die for.
 
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The only ones that "follows, walks with, and puts their faith, trust, and rest in the Lord Jesus Christ" are his elect that he gave to his Son to die for.
I agree, as said C. H. Spurgeon, "Whatever may be said about the doctrine of election, it is written in the Word of God as with an iron pen, and there is no getting rid of it." Anyone who comes to and maintains a saving faith is of the elect.
 

ForestGreenCook

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I understand the word:

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

received = the Greek word lambánō

2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.


Even as you claim I "dont understand its usage in its various context its found", you have provided no "various context" in which the word lambánō does not mean "actively lay hold of to take or receive" ... "to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered)" ... lambánō "emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver".

I will stick with Scripture and do as God instructs.





I do not oppose Scripture. Get "all the posts of [yours]" in line with Scripture. Leave your dogma behind.
Have you not considered the verse right before Romans 5:11? Romans 5:10 ; For if, when we were enemies, we were "reconciled" #2644 "Katallasso" from 2596 and 236; to change mutually, to compound a difference.

In verse 11, "received" is in past tense, and not an invitation to receive.
 

ForestGreenCook

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brightfame52

on the one hand you claim "at the Great White Throne, those who are going to hell to perish for their sins, is because of their sins against God's Law"

on the other hand you claim that the elect are chosen by God from before the foundation of the world (iow the non elect are not chosen by God from before the foundation of the world).


So do they go to hell because they sin ... or do they go to hell because they are not chosen by God from before the foundation of the world?
God, by his foreknowledge, saw that none of mankind would seek him. Psalms 14:2-3. Because of this fact God choose a large portion of those that would not seek him to be adopted as his children by sending his Son to die to pay for their sins.

God judges his adopted children, whom he loves, by his chastening, while they sojourn here on earth, and they will not be judged at the last day. God does not judge those that are not his adopted children as they live their lives here on earth, Psalms 73. (they are not "Plagued" [divinely punished] like other men, but judges them at the last day.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Oh? Instead of simply disagreeing with me, please explain what you mean?
I think he is saying; The only ones that "follows, walks with, and puts their faith, trust, and rest in the Lord Jesus Christ, are the elect that Christ died for.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Once again, The atonement covers the sins of anyone that follows, walks with, and puts their faith, trust, and rest in the Lord Jesus Christ."

Jesus said "Follow me."

Jesus said "Repent and believe."

Jesus said "Abide in me and I will abide in you."

Anyone who follows, walks with, puts their faith trust and rest in Jesus has repented and believed, is in Christ and Christ is in them. They are indeed saved by the atonement.
Only his elect (his sheep) hear his voice and obeys his commands.
 

ForestGreenCook

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All that for nothing, the KJV translators added us, and it was appropriate, it did no violence to the text. You wasting time. The us, or as the NIV stated our, is the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16
You best stick with the original KJV if you want the scriptures to all agree with one another, without contradictions. The "us" is in reference to Dan 9:19, thy people who are called by thy name.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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All that for nothing
nope ... not for nothing. In all actuality, it is the post to which I replied which was rendered "all that for nothing".

You have been instructed that the words "for us" do not belong in the text and that knowledge is now your responsibility.

that you have no problem adding words to Scripture, manipulating Scripture to support your vain imaginations rather than reading what the Author of Scripture intended? ... that's on you.






brightfame52 said:
the KJV translators added us, and it was appropriate, it did no violence to the text.
Yes it does violate the text ... that you do not believe "it did no violence to the text"? oh well, par for the course where you're concerned. :rolleyes:





 
Mar 23, 2016
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Do you consider yourself "a living creature"?
According to Scripture, I am a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Cor 5:17).




ForestGreenCook said:
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within you?
yep. :cool:




ForestGreenCook said:
It is the same in Ezk.
nope ... not the same. I leave up to God to reveal your error to you.



 
Mar 23, 2016
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The born again old testament saints having obtained a good report through faith (spiritual faith, being a "fruit of the Holy Spirit") were not made perfect until the coming promise of the crucifiction of Jesus Christ.

In this day and time, as well as the old testament saints, who are born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, are said to have the Spirit upon them, guiding them in the ways that God directs. Luke 2:9.

The Holy Spirit, which is one function of the Godhead as the quickening Spirit, also in itself, has two other functions; The revelator, and the comforter, which was given on the day of pentecost.
We've already gone through this, ForestGreenCook. I disagree with your dogma.

I explained the difference between OC believers and NC believers ...

Here

Here


at this point in time, I choose not to go through it with you again ... read the Scripture provided to you at the above links and pray for understanding.



 
Mar 23, 2016
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Have you not considered the verse right before Romans 5:11? Romans 5:10 ; For if, when we were enemies, we were "reconciled" #2644 "Katallasso" from 2596 and 236; to change mutually, to compound a difference.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The words "we were reconciled" = #2644 "Katallasso" from 2596 and 236 ... again, the words "we were" have been added to the text by translators.




ForestGreenCook said:
In verse 11, "received" is in past tense, and not an invitation to receive.
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The word "now" appears in the text. It was not added by translators. Is "now" past tense?


The word "received" in Rom 5:11 is translated from the Greek word lambanó.

2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.


You and @brightfame52 don't like the usage of the word lambánō in Rom 5:11? Take it up with God ... it's His Word. oh yeah, since you two don't have a problem with translators (mankind) adding to Scripture ... does it bother you if someone changes Scripture? ... or just ignores words placed in Scripture by God because, well, gosh ... that doesn't fit with your preconceived notions? :rolleyes:




 
Mar 23, 2016
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ForestGreenCook said:
God, by his foreknowledge, saw that none of mankind would seek him. Psalms 14:2-3. Because of this fact God choose a large portion of those that would not seek him to be adopted as his children by sending his Son to die to pay for their sins.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.




ForestGreenCook said:
God judges his adopted children, whom he loves, by his chastening, while they sojourn here on earth, and they will not be judged at the last day. God does not judge those that are not his adopted children as they live their lives here on earth, Psalms 73. (they are not "Plagued" [divinely punished] like other men, but judges them at the last day.
So God did not judge Sodom and Gomorrha when He rained fire and brimstone down?

or Egypt when He brought the children of Israel out of bondage? the plagues were not God's judgment against the wickedness and idolatry of Egypt?

And how about old Ahab? oh yeah, and his wife Jezebel?

smh ...



 

brightfame52

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Redemption is an act of God !

A fellow said once to me, that yes Jesus Christ has obtained Eternal Redemption for them, but that does not mean those who He died for receive it. How far from the Truth was that statement. Redemption requires action to be done by the one doing the redeeming or He has not accomplished redemption, He has not accomplished anything if those He died to redeem are not actually redeemed.

Lets look again at Heb 9:12

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The word redemption here is the greek word lytrōsis:

ransoming, redemption

2) deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

Notice that one of the definitions is deliverance from the penalty of sin.

The Eternal Redemption of Heb 9:12, for the US the writer Identifies himself with, as to whom Christ obtained Eternal Redemption, He has obtained for them Eternal Deliverance from the penalty of what their sins deserve.

Paul says like this in Eph 1:7

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

All whom Christ died for, have Eternal Forgiveness, even when they are by nature as others children of wrath ! Thats because this forgiveness is according to the riches of His Grace !

So one of the many acts that Christ obtained for them He died for is they all are Eternally delivered from the penalty of their sins, all of them, according to the Riches of His Grace, and this before they have any knowledge of it. 63
 

brightfame52

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You best stick with the original KJV if you want the scriptures to all agree with one another, without contradictions. The "us" is in reference to Dan 9:19, thy people who are called by thy name.
Rabbit trail comment sir !
 

ForestGreenCook

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According to Scripture, I am a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Cor 5:17).





yep. :cool:





nope ... not the same. I leave up to God to reveal your error to you.
Yes, there are some things that we have to leave up to God to explain that we can't explain ourselves, due to a lack of knowledge of the scriptures. The "creatures" are "living created beings" in Ezk.
 

ForestGreenCook

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1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.





So God did not judge Sodom and Gomorrha when He rained fire and brimstone down?

or Egypt when He brought the children of Israel out of bondage? the plagues were not God's judgment against the wickedness and idolatry of Egypt?

And how about old Ahab? oh yeah, and his wife Jezebel?

smh ...
You can not ignore some scriptures in order to hold on to a false doctrine. Psalms 73 confirms that the wicked are not divinely punished as other men.

God raised Pharaoh up for the purpose of showing his power in freeing his people. God does not judge the wicked, but he does use them to accomplish his purposes.

The "world" in 1 John 2:2 is the "world of believers".