The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I'm asking for just ONE verse that says in very plain unambiguous words that Christ either DIDN'T die for everyone, or that He ONLY died for some.

Is that too difficult to find?

The bible is for God's elects only.

That makes no sense. The Bible includes the gospel, which is for everyone. Titus 2:11 is a good start to study.

Nonelects only suppose to receive the true gospel, nonelects than reject the Holy Spirit and God gives them over to a reprobate mind.

It is futile to try to reason with those who have no idea what election is about. Please show me just ONE verse that clearly and unambiguously teaches that election is to salvation.

In the meantime, keep in mind that the reformed doctrine of election is properly "unconditional election". Do you understand that?

If election was to salvation, then the second point of TULIP would mean that there are NO CONDITIONS for salvation other than God chose them for salvation.

Yet, the Bible is full of verses that specifically teach that both salvation and eternal life is based on (conditioned on) faith.

Proof is not going to save souls, only God can save souls.

Do you even know WHO God chooses to save?

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

There it is, in plain and unambiguous words: God is pleased to save those who believe.

Belief IS a condition for salvation. That's who God chooses to save. Clear as crystal.

Also God will only give the Holy Spirit to God's elects.

What verse says that?

If God died for everyone, he would have saved everyone.

OK, thanks for demonstrating that you don't even understand WHY Jesus had to die for everyone. His death saves NO ONE. If you think so, please find even one verse that says so.

God will never fail.

He never fails to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

If you find out you are nonelect, forget everything to do with God and live your life to the fullness. You are only going to enjoy this world for a season.

Yep. What a typical and very depressing Calvinist view.

Read Romans 9, we know for sure Pharaoh is nonelect and God did not die for him.

Ok, just showing more of how little you know of Scripture.

Consider this: Romans 9:17 - For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Are you going to argue that God's raising up Pharaoh wasn't a choice?

Or this: John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

So, please explain how Judas, who was NEVER saved, was chosen (elected).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Such a large post all to avoid looking hypocritical...It's also a form of Gish Galloping. Still...I think I've given this enough time, much more time than the other members at this point. We're not even discussing the main point of this thread anymore; down rabbit holes, more focused on scoring points than winning me over.

more insults.

As far as "gish galloping" go back to Post #783 to see who went down the 2 Cor 12 "rabbit hole". I merely responded to your statement concerning your belief that Paul was involved in some "particular sin he kept committing" and showed you that the term "thorn in the flesh" is defined in Scripture (Numbers 33:55, Joshua 23:13, as well as Paul's treatment by others in the couple of chapters before 2 Cor 12).

Oh yes, let's not read verses within the context in which they are set ...

I don't know why you rather not

Go back through the discussion to see who does and who does not prefer to read the verses within the context (hint). I won't hold my breath, though ...

Paul's thorn didn't relate to an external issue (like persecution from people) but an internal issue he's dealing with within himself. The operative word used is "infirmity" in 12:9, distinguished from the other issues he lists in 12:10.

The word "infirmities" in vs 9 (as well as in vs 10) is plural ... not singular.

And in vs 10, Paul points out ...

reproaches - Greek hýbris - an act of wanton violence, an outrage, injury - as Paul points out in the previous chapters.

necessities - anágkē - calamity, distress, straits - as Paul points out in the previous chapters.

persecutions - diōgmós ("religious persecution") literally refers to those seeking to punish God's messengers with a vengeance– like a hunter trying to conquer (obliterate) someone as their "catch." (diōgmós) is used in ancient and biblical Greek for persecution (hostility) shown by confused, spiritual "leaders." For example, it applies to the Roman Emperor, Decius (ad250-251). He killed thousands of Christians who refused to offer sacrifices in his name. - as Paul points out in the previous chapters.

Do you claim that Paul persecuted himself?

distresses - stenoxōría - a narrow place; (figuratively) a difficult circumstance - as Paul points out in the previous chapters ... look at 2 Cor 11:23 where Paul stated he was confined in prisons (plural).

Incorrect. The thorn in the flesh was an "infirmity", not people.

You have been shown from prior use of "thorn in the flesh" and from the context within which 2 Corinthians 12 sits that Paul was describing certain behaviors of people who wanted to bring Paul's ministry to ruin. But you are free to continue to believe that Paul's thorn in the flesh was ... what were your words? oh yeah ... "a particular sin he kept committing".

2 Corinthians 12:7

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

You do know that the messenger of satan works within people, yes?

and fyi ... the word "it" in vs 8 does not appear in the text. the word "it" was added by translators.

...Then he concludes that everything he's been suffering - from persecution to infirmities etc - is for the sake of Christ. Again, it's why the "therefore" is there. It's Paul's conclusion to all that he's said so far.

2 Corinthians 12:10
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

By the way, note the very last word of the verse. It further confirms what Paul received from God to endure all he's going through. Strength.

Yes, we see this same truth in 1 Peter 5:6-10. God strengthens the believer as the believer humbles him/herself before God. And God is faithful to work within the believer to perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle us as we go through this lifetime. The same God relied upon by Paul and Peter is the same God we rely on. And through God's grace, we receive the strength needed to carry on, in spite of the rumblings of the adversary of our Father.

Romans 7:15-20
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

"All have sinned."

Why stop at vs 20? the remedy is:

Romans 7:25-8:1 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Grace is not Graciousness or Graciously. This is why it's important to let scripture define terms through word usage and textual context as we agreed. The Gift of God should never have been translated as the English word "grace", for the very misunderstanding you're displaying. We project onto it modern meanings that don't apply simply because the English words are similar.

Grace is charis which means favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towardsto share benefit") – grace is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them"). "grace" answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

You don't agree? Fine by me. Please allow me to continue to define grace as God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them ... just as I allow you to believe grace is strength/power/teaching ... and which I consider God's strength/power/teaching to reach mankind through God's grace and because God is gracious toward His children.

If you think it's a personal insult to call you arrogant you may not be ready for this walk. It's called reproving and rebuking, as we are commanded to do for each other. For the maturing of the saints, so they don't act like children.

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

you so silly.

Couple 2 Timothy 4:2 with what you know from Scripture about how believers are to treat other believers. if you need Scripture references, please let me know and I will be happy to provide such to you.

(How is an error "maintained" if the change is "new"? )

your error is maintained because you continue to change the word charis to dýnamis.

maintain = cause or enable (a condition or state of affairs) to continue

I'd rather rely on the usage of words in Scripture to clarify the meaning of words used in other places in scripture, as you said.

... except when it comes to Paul's thorn in the flesh.

 

[brightfame52]

It Gives Faith or make Faithful !

Hosea 2:18-20

18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.

Its one thing for God to be Faithful to us, but in this He causes us to be Faithful to Him.

This Covenant puts the fear of God in our heart, a great spiritual blessing and the promise to such Jer 32:40

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

God's Faithfulness is Promised here in that " He will not turn away from them to do them good" and He promises they also will be faithful to Him by they not departing from Him !

So the Covenental Death of Christ provides Faith and Faithfulness to those He died for.

In fact that word faithfulness in Hosea 2:20 is translated faith here Hab 2:4

4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

And by that they shall know the Lord ! Again, another Covenant Promise Heb 8:11

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

When Paul writes to the Faithful Eph 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

He knows they have been partaken of the Covenant Promise Hosea 2:20

20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.

 

[brightfame52]

No, I think you may be unfamiliar with what a refutation is. That's what I did. I disproved your points with mine.

And you didn't even bother to try to refute my points. That generally says a lot.

Post 784 did you understand it ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Post 784 did you understand it ?

Of course. And my reply refuted it with truth. Did you understand my post?

 

[brightfame52]

Of course. And my reply refuted it with truth. Did you understand my post?

So whats the points made therein ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So whats the points made therein ?

Here is the thrust of post 778:

"Fruit of Christ's Death !

What is meant by fruit is the effects and product of Christ's Death for all whom He died, for He died an Covenental Death Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament or covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

You believe that Christ only died for the so-called "elect", even though there is NO such verse in the Bible.

I proved to you that "many" in Matt 26:28 CANNOT mean "less than everyone", as you presume, since I quoted Matt 7:14 which specifically says that ONLY A FEW people will find the "narrow path".

So, that means a whole lot LESS people will be saved than be lost.

So, if "many" means "less than all", what do you do with "only a few"?

The Greek word for "many" simply means a LOT. So you seem to be arguing that Matt was talking out of both sides of his mouth when he penned Matt 7:14 and Matt 26:28.

Can't have it both ways.

 

[brightfame52]

It gives Repentance !

Repentance, a Change of Mind, thats one of the Blessings of the Death of Christ, to all for whom He died. All for whom He doth have Redemption through His Blood and even the forgiveness of sins Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Now, as an accompaniment with forgiveness of sins is Repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Thats correct, they accompany one another in the economy of Salvation and God does not grant one without the other.

Thats why also He told His Messengers to Preach both of them together in His Name Lk 24:47

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached[not offered or commanded] in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The word preached is the greek word kēryssō:


to be a herald, to officiate as a herald

a) to proclaim after the manner of a herald

b) always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed

2) to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done

3) used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers

The Disciples were to proclaim, declare openly something which had been done, completed, accomplished, effected by the Lord Jesus Christ in His Work, which were Repentance and Forgiveness or Remission of sins for Israel or God's Elect.

That is exactly what Peter Proclaimed here Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Peter was specific as to who these joint blessings belonged, The Israel of God Gal 6:16

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Folks the Death of Christ for all whom He died grants to them Redemption, Forgiveness of sins and Repentance according to the Riches of His Grace !

Yes, the conclusion is, if one does not ever Repent unto Life as Per Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Then simply put, Christ did not shed His Blood for them Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins/and repentance.

 

[brightfame52]

Here is the thrust of post 778:

"Fruit of Christ's Death !

What is meant by fruit is the effects and product of Christ's Death for all whom He died, for He died an Covenental Death Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament or covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

You believe that Christ only died for the so-called "elect", even though there is NO such verse in the Bible.

I proved to you that "many" in Matt 26:28 CANNOT mean "less than everyone", as you presume, since I quoted Matt 7:14 which specifically says that ONLY A FEW people will find the "narrow path".

So, that means a whole lot LESS people will be saved than be lost.

So, if "many" means "less than all", what do you do with "only a few"?

The Greek word for "many" simply means a LOT. So you seem to be arguing that Matt was talking out of both sides of his mouth when he penned Matt 7:14 and Matt 26:28.

Can't have it both ways.

I stated much more, you evaded it just like you always do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I stated much more, you evaded it just like you always do.

Since I DID comment on the first part of that post, and refuted, it, shows that there wouldn't be anything more to comment on.

I've given multiple verses that plainly say that Christ died for all.

I have shown that Matt 7:14 refutes your erroneous understanding of Matt 26 regarding "many".

If Christ died for "many", how is it then that ONLY A FEW find the right road?

You see, it doesn't make sense, or add up.

But your Calvinist theology demands that He die ONLY for the elect, which sure ain't 'many' among the entirety of humanity.

And still, you don't have any verse that clearly states that Christ died ONLY for ___________ . Go ahead and fill in the blank, and then go find a verse that says so.

 

[brightfame52]

Since I DID comment on the first part of that post, and refuted, it, shows that there wouldn't be anything more to comment on.

I've given multiple verses that plainly say that Christ died for all.

I have shown that Matt 7:14 refutes your erroneous understanding of Matt 26 regarding "many".

If Christ died for "many", how is it then that ONLY A FEW find the right road?

You see, it doesn't make sense, or add up.

But your Calvinist theology demands that He die ONLY for the elect, which sure ain't 'many' among the entirety of humanity.

And still, you don't have any verse that clearly states that Christ died ONLY for ___________ . Go ahead and fill in the blank, and then go find a verse that says so.

You still evading and want to take over. You want me to explain your points to the neglect of mine.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You still evading and want to take over. You want me to explain your points to the neglect of mine.

what we all want, brightfame52, is the Word of God ... your dogma is not the Word of God!!!

READ. YOUR BIBLE!!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

You still evading and want to take over. You want me to explain your points to the neglect of mine.

I already refuted your first point. So what would be the use of continuing in such a false post?

 

[brightfame52]

They shall all Know me !

One of the Blessings of the Covenant Death of the Lord Jesus Christ for all whom He died, it is they shall receive a heart to know Him and the Father , to know God !

Jer 31:34

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I just Love the shall's of God, they mean its a sure thing !

Jesus stated that was His Purpose here Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus says of His Sheep that He was to lay His Life down in behalf of this Jn 10:14

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Heb 8:11

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

That word know here in Heb 8:11 does not mean a mere nominal knowing, but spiritual knowing. Its a causing one to know, turning the mind to. Its a experimental knowing/perception and includes Faith.

So its also a promise of Faith, They shall all believe in Me.

Jer 24:7

And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

 

[brightfame52]

what we all want, brightfame52, is the Word of God ... your dogma is not the Word of God!!!

READ. YOUR BIBLE!!!

Post 808, You understand it ? Very important truth there. What is it ?

 

[brightfame52]

I already refuted your first point. So what would be the use of continuing in such a false post?

How can you refute that which you evade ?

 

[fredoheaven]

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached[not offered or commanded] in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The word preached is the greek word kēryssō:


to be a herald, to officiate as a herald

a) to proclaim after the manner of a herald

b) always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed

2) to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done

3) used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers

The Disciples were to proclaim, declare openly something which had been done, completed, accomplished, effected by the Lord Jesus Christ in His Work, which were Repentance and Forgiveness or Remission of sins for Israel or God's Elect.

"Among ALL Nations beginning from Jerusalem" NOt only the Jews but Gentiles. The twist here is God's elect which has never been used in the context.

 

[brightfame52]

"Among ALL Nations beginning from Jerusalem" NOt only the Jews but Gentiles. The twist here is God's elect which has never been used in the context.

No twist, Israel is Gods elect

That is exactly what Peter Proclaimed here Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Post 808, You understand it ? Very important truth there. What is it ?

"important truth" in Post 808

Eph 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Col 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins


Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


Luke 24:47
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


Gal 6:16
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


Acts 11:18
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[brightfame52]

By His Stripes we are healed !

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

There is perhaps no clearer scripture testimony in the word of God, that does declare the Saving Effects of the Death of Christ, in fact the very word healed means :

to cure, heal

2) to make whole

a) to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

Now if all for whom He died [ The meaning of His Stripes] are not healed, made whole, converted or saved experientially so that they died to sin and begin to live to Righteousness, then His Stripes [Death] was a Utter failure. By Christ's Death [Stripes], its to effect a conversion, a New Life unto God. This conversion unto a New Life of Righteousness includes living for now on by Faith, resting in the imputed Righteousness of God revealed in the Gospel Rom 1:16-17.

So the Healing that comes from Christ's stripes is a New Creation inside of each one He died for, and by it they live in Righteousness and Holiness all the days of their lives Lk 1:74-75


74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,229

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.