The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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Mar 23, 2016
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They are accepted by the Father in Christ before they believed. In fact, God out of eternal love for them Chose them in Christ, put them in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4 which is why they are accepted in Him as early Eph 1:6

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
God's desire is for all mankind to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


God's desire is that the wicked would turn to Him ... turn from their wicked ways:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...


Instead of ripping Eph 1:4 and Eph 1:6 from the context within which they sit, start with Ephesians 1:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus

The very first verse in Ephesians tells us that the letter is written to believers ... those who have turned to the Lord Jesus Christ in faith ... to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Chosen from the before the foundation of the world and those who are in Him are blessed with all spiritual blessings.

The only way mankind can be in Him is to turn to Him in faith.


The faithful in Christ Jesus are those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) when the gospel is revealed to them:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to restrain, suppress, hinder. So mankind suppresses the truth when truth is spoken to them. In other words, God does not reject the unbeliever ... God reaches out to the unbeliever because God's desire is that the unbeliever turn to Him. The unbeliever suppresses the truth.



We have gone over these verses before, brightfame52. your rendering of Scripture is incompatible with the full truth of Scripture. All verses of Scripture must be in harmony with other verses of Scripture.



 
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Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

By Him means because of Him, His Death and Intercession for them. He gets the credit !
You neglect a crucial point in Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost
that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

And that fits with what is revealed in Luke 15 in the prodigal son scenario.

Again, brightfame52, please show the verse or verses in Luke 15 which indicate that the father pursued the son and dragged him home. The father never left ... the father waited for the son to turn to him ...


brightfame52 said:

You see the prodigal son had an application of healing upon him. This parable was to teach God's People the Love of the Father in bringing His gone astray children back to Himself


reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, the son sought out his father (vs 18).
The father never left the home. He waited and he watched for his son to return, but the father did not follow his son and drag him back:
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. The father rejoiced to see his son. :cool:
Please provide the verse in Luke 15:11-32 which shows the father pursued after the son, found him, and dragged him back home. Thank you.



 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Redeemed from the curse of the Law !

By the death of Christ alone, apart from believing, repenting, accepting a gift, calling on the Name of the Lord, or anything DONE by those Christ died for, but Solely by His Death, He hath redeemed them from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

There are no charges or consequences against them for all their violations of God's Law, they have a perfect clean slate , and God will not impute sin against them no matter what Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Yes, this man God will not charge with sin ! Not that this man is not a sinner, ungodly, an enemies by nature, all that can be true, nevertheless, if Christ has died for them, God cannot and will not charge them with sin. That's Justification and Forgiveness by Grace ! Sin is the Transgression of the Law 1 Jn 3:4

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Yet, those whom Christ died for, and by that death, redeemed them from the curse of the Law [ The strength of sin is the Law 1 Cor 15:56] Sin is not counted against them, they are Truly Blessed Rom 4:8.

Those Christ did not die for, are under the curse of the law, and shall remain until they hear these words Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
 

brightfame52

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So Now


A BIG COP OUT Statement Here -----

I don't think you are able to answer MY QUESTION ------and so YOUR EVADING Everyone who Challenges you -----Cause All you like to do is POST THE SCRIPTURE without anyone Challenging you ------and because you don't know the answer --you have to Turn the table on the Person saying they are evading the Question ------YOUR PLAYING THE BLAME GAME ------

YOU should take this Scripture and really put it into action ------by researching and relying on the Holy Spirit who will guide into the truth of the Scripture -----and give you understanding so you can be a teacher of the Word not just a poster of the Word with no understanding of it ------

A big cop out ? I can say the same for you friend.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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God's desire is for all mankind to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


God's desire is that the wicked would turn to Him ... turn from their wicked ways:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...


Instead of ripping Eph 1:4 and Eph 1:6 from the context within which they sit, start with Ephesians 1:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus

The very first verse in Ephesians tells us that the letter is written to believers ... those who have turned to the Lord Jesus Christ in faith ... to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Chosen from the before the foundation of the world and those who are in Him are blessed with all spiritual blessings.

The only way mankind can be in Him is to turn to Him in faith.


The faithful in Christ Jesus are those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) when the gospel is revealed to them:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to restrain, suppress, hinder. So mankind suppresses the truth when truth is spoken to them. In other words, God does not reject the unbeliever ... God reaches out to the unbeliever because God's desire is that the unbeliever turn to Him. The unbeliever suppresses the truth.



We have gone over these verses before, brightfame52. your rendering of Scripture is incompatible with the full truth of Scripture. All verses of Scripture must be in harmony with other verses of Scripture.
Rabbit trail.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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You neglect a crucial point in Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

And that fits with what is revealed in Luke 15 in the prodigal son scenario.

Again, brightfame52, please show the verse or verses in Luke 15 which indicate that the father pursued the son and dragged him home. The father never left ... the father waited for the son to turn to him ...


brightfame52 said:

You see the prodigal son had an application of healing upon him. This parable was to teach God's People the Love of the Father in bringing His gone astray children back to Himself


reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, the son sought out his father (vs 18).
The father never left the home. He waited and he watched for his son to return, but the father did not follow his son and drag him back:
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. The father rejoiced to see his son. :cool:
Please provide the verse in Luke 15:11-32 which shows the father pursued after the son, found him, and dragged him back home. Thank you.
They come to God by Christ, I plainly emphasized that.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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if Christ has died for them, God cannot and will not charge them with sin
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.




brightfame52 said:
Those Christ did not die for
the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world ...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.




brightfame52 said:
apart from believing, repenting, accepting a gift, calling on the Name of the Lord, or anything DONE by those Christ died for
your problem is that you refuse to acknowledge truth of Scripture when Scripture tells us faith is not works ...


Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


God tells us in Romans 4:3-5 that faith is not works. I'll stick with what God tells me in Scripture.


brightfame52 claims faith is works. you can have your "faith = works" mumbo jumbo ...



 
Mar 23, 2016
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They come to God by Christ, I plainly emphasized that.
we were discussing Luke 15:11-32 ... again, as requested in Post #1006, Post #1014, Post #1022:

please provide the verse in Luke 15:11-32 which shows the father pursued after the son, found him, and dragged him back home. Thank you.


talk about "rabbit trail" ... I asked for the verse in Luke 15:11-32 ... where is it, brightfame52???



 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.





the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world ...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.





your problem is that you refuse to acknowledge truth of Scripture when Scripture tells us faith is not works ...


Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


God tells us in Romans 4:3-5 that faith is not works. I'll stick with what God tells me in Scripture.


brightfame52 claims faith is works. you can have your "faith = works" mumbo jumbo ...
Once again if Christ has died for someone, God cannot and will not charge them with sin. Do you want to know why ?
 

brightfame52

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we were discussing Luke 15:11-32 ... again, as requested in Post #1006, Post #1014, Post #1022:

please provide the verse in Luke 15:11-32 which shows the father pursued after the son, found him, and dragged him back home. Thank you.


talk about "rabbit trail" ... I asked for the verse in Luke 15:11-32 ... where is it, brightfame52???
Doesnt matter, nothing changes, a person comes to God by Him, Jesus Christ Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The prodigal son Illustrates that. The sons return was by Jesus Christ
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Once again if Christ has died for someone, God cannot and will not charge them with sin.
once again ...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


... and more than once cuz mankind needs remindin'

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned ...

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world



 

brightfame52

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They will follow Him or become belivers !

John 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This drawing all men to Himself is an promised Effect of Him being Lifted Up, which speaks of His Death.

Now this drawing means that they will follow Him as His Sheep.

The word draw is the greek word helkō and means:

to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Jesus is using the word in the metaph #2 sense. He will draw them by an inner power, the Spirit in them,He will be leading them or impelling them inwardly.

In fact, its the same as when He said Jn 10:3-4

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Those He was lifted Up for, He knows them, and eventually He calls them by their Name and Leadeth them !

That word leadeth is the word exago:

to lead out and to fetch out Acts 16:37

The word is actually Two words combined ek =out of, from, by, away from and agō = to lead, take with one

a) to lead by laying hold of, and this way to bring to the point of destination: of an animal

He fetches out or leads out from their Lost state and brings them to their destination.

But notice the word lead. That is what draw means as well in Jn 12:32.

But also Jesus said He putteth them forth Jn 10:4. Its the verb ekballō and means :

to cause a thing to move straight on its intended goal

to lead one forth or away somewhere with a force which he cannot resist

This is describing His Irresistible Call of His Own Sheep by Name Jn 10:3

After He does that, He goes before them as their Shepherd and Leader and they do follow Him ! Jn 10:4

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

That word follow akoloutheō:

to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him

2) to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple

a) side with his party

They become His disciples, His converts to His Teachings and ways, so Believers.

Lets look at one more passage Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Notice, other Sheep He must bring. That word bring agō:14

to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind. This again is same as drawing Jn 12:32 metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

So the All Men of Jn 12:32 are all of His Sheep. In the original it just reads, will draw all unto me. The word men was added by the Translators, but its all His Sheep from out of the jewish fold and the gentile fold, so He means in Jn 10:16.

Now is this the Christ you believe in ? The Christ who says that if He be Lifted Up [speaking of His death for His Sheep Jn 10:15] that He will draw all of them to Himself, and they shall follow Him, Believe in Him, become His disciple, and be for Him and His Gospel cause. Not one of them shall be Lost, because He found them all !
 

brightfame52

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once again ...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


... and more than once cuz mankind needs remindin'

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned ...

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world
Once again if Christ has died for someone, God cannot and will not charge them with sin. Do you want to know why ?
 

brightfame52

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Because of the Blood of Christ !

Heb 13:20-21

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Its because of the Blood of Christ , that sealed and ratified the Eternal Compact of the Divine Counsel, hat those The Shepherd Surety died for [Obviously His Sheep] that they shall be made perfect in every good work, to do His Will, which worketh in them that which is well pleasing in His Sight, through Jesus Christ, that is His Blood accomplishment, for each of the Sheep He died for, those things must be applied to them based upon His Blood !
 
Mar 23, 2016
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if Christ has died for someone
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all mankind ...




brightfame52 said:
God cannot and will not charge them with sin.
Those who are under the wrath of God are those who reject God.

Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The words "who hold" in vs 18 are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to restrain, hinder, suppress. So those who hear the gospel suppress, restrain the gospel when God reveals the gospel to them ... they reject God.



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!


 
Mar 23, 2016
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those The Shepherd Surety died for
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all mankind ...



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Makes us Spiritual Servants/Priests !

Rev 1:5-6

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

One of the reasons why the scripture teaches that the death of Christ alone has efficacious Saving results is seen here in the above passage. and to Him is ascribed Glory and Dominion for it. By His Blood [Death] those He died in the stead of, were washed and freed from their sins, and made [converted] to a Kingdom of Priests to His God. That word made ποιέω:


I make, manufacture, construct, (b) I do, act, cause.

Hence by His Blood He made, constructed, manufactured, caused to be, those He washed, into a Kingdom of Spiritual Priests unto God !

The word manufacture means the making or producing of anything; generation as in Regeneration or Birth !

This must be ascribed to His Dominion.

Conversion to God His Father into a Royal and Spiritual Priesthood is to His Glory, its the effect of His Blood.

This is why Peter writes 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree = The washing and loosing us from our sins in His Blood

should live unto righteousness= Made into Spiritual Priests for God

by whose stripes ye were healed.= The same as His Blood/ Death
So Rev 1:6 and 1 Pet 2:24 agree in the Saving Accomplishment of the Death of Christ alone, in and of itself ! 14