The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
Christ's Healing Stripes ! 2

1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


Christ's stripes heals all those for whom He died, who took stripes in behalf of, with the healing results being their returning back to God, meaning their actual conversion to God in Faith and Repentance.

That's what Vs 25 tells us to be the effects of having Christ die for us. His stripes are responsible for our return to God. The word returned is the greek word verb epistrephó and means:


I turn (back) to (towards), (b) intrans: I turn (back) (to [towards]); I come to myself.

Its like the idea of the prodigal son when it reads of him Lk 15:17-18

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go[returning] to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

Also the word is used in the aroist indicative passive, which means e subject [person] is being returned or turned . Remember Jer 31:18

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

That word turn and turned here is the Hebrew word shuwb and means:

to return, turn back

a) (Qal)

1) to turn back, return

a) to turn back

b) to return, come or go back

c) to return unto, go back, come back

d) of dying

e) of human relations (fig)

f) of spiritual relations (fig)

1) to turn back (from God), apostatise

2) to turn away (of God)

3) to turn back (to God), repent

4) turn back (from evil)

And that is what Christ's stripes/death effects for all whom He bare stripes in behalf of. It grants them conversion repentance to God. Each one of them during their life time will do as the prodigal did Lk 15:17-19

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

You see the prodigal son had an application of healing upon him. This parable was to teach God's People the Love of the Father in bringing His gone astray children back to Himself by the Work of Christ on the Cross. The prodigal did not heal himself, neither do those Christ died for, they were healed by His Stripes, which is His Death.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
1 Jn 4:9 That we might live through him.

1 Jn 4:9-10

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Christ's Coming as having been sent by God the Father, it had purpose behind it, and that was that those who are believing might Live. In fact believing is living, and believing was the end to which He sent Christ to accomplish.

By His coming and putting away our sins, making full satisfaction for them to God's Law and Justice, we now are given the privilege [through New Birth] to live Spiritually unto God.

Christ's death for all whom He died ensures a deliverance for them from spiritual death, and the granting of Spiritual Life, to Live unto God. Paul taught the same thing here 2 Cor 5:14-15

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Simply put, if any never receive New Spiritual Life [which is Eternal Life] to live unto God, then Christ did not die for them., nor were they Loved of Him, nor the Father, nor the Spirit. For any to remain in Spiritual death, to remain dead in trespasses and sins without being quickened Eph 2:4-5, then its safe to say Christ did not die for that one. 14
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
His Death actually redeems to God !

Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain[Died], and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Yes, that was the result and effect of His being slain. Remember Peter said Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Jesus said Lk 9:21-22

21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

And so it is those He was slain in behalf of shall praise Him here Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

This His redemptive death made them believers. How so ? By making them into a Kingdom of Priests unto God, for in order to do that, we must be made believers. For our priesthood duties consist of 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

This we cannot do in unbelief dead in sin. So Christ's Redemptive death must do all to effect that and it did, hence why we read Rev 5:9-10 !
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,745
1,362
113
The word returned is the greek word verb epistrephó and means:

I turn (back) to (towards), (b) intrans: I turn (back) (to [towards]); I come to myself.
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

True the word "returned" is translated from the Greek word epistrephó.

It is also true that the word is used intransitively ... which denotes to turn, to turn oneself:

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

2. intransitive, (Winers Grammar, § 38, 1 (compare p. 26; Buttmann, 144 (126f)));
a. to turn, to turn oneself: ἐπί τόν κύριον and ἐπί τόν Θεόν, of Gentiles passing over to the religion of Christ, Acts 9:35; Acts 11:21; Acts 14:15; Acts 15:19; Acts 26:20, cf. 1 Peter 2:25; πρός τί, Acts 9:40; πρός τόν Θεόν, 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 3:16; ἀπό τίνος εἰς τί, Acts 26:18.

Reading the verse within the context ...

1 Pe 2:

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


vs 21 - all mankind is called because the Lord Jesus Christ suffered on behalf of all mankind (the whole world - 1 John 2:2)

vs 22 - the Lord Jesus Christ never sinned ... no guile was in His mouth (He always spoke Truth)

vs 23 - He was reviled, He suffered and He did not revile back, nor threaten

vs 24 - He took the sins of all mankind (1 John 2:2 the whole world) in order that all mankind should live righteously

vs 25 - all mankind has gone astray; and those who turn have turned from wandering without guidance to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.




brightfame52 said:
Lk 15:17-19

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Yes, the son sought out his father (vs 18).




brightfame52 said:
You see the prodigal son had an application of healing upon him. This parable was to teach God's People the Love of the Father in bringing His gone astray children back to Himself
The father never left the home. He waited and he watched for his son to return, but the father did not follow his son and drag him back:

Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. The father rejoiced to see his son. :cool:



 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

True the word "returned" is translated from the Greek word epistrephó.

It is also true that the word is used intransitively ... which denotes to turn, to turn oneself:

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

2. intransitive, (Winers Grammar, § 38, 1 (compare p. 26; Buttmann, 144 (126f)));
a. to turn, to turn oneself: ἐπί τόν κύριον and ἐπί τόν Θεόν, of Gentiles passing over to the religion of Christ, Acts 9:35; Acts 11:21; Acts 14:15; Acts 15:19; Acts 26:20, cf. 1 Peter 2:25; πρός τί, Acts 9:40; πρός τόν Θεόν, 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 3:16; ἀπό τίνος εἰς τί, Acts 26:18.

Reading the verse within the context ...

1 Pe 2:

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


vs 21 - all mankind is called because the Lord Jesus Christ suffered on behalf of all mankind (the whole world - 1 John 2:2)

vs 22 - the Lord Jesus Christ never sinned ... no guile was in His mouth (He always spoke Truth)

vs 23 - He was reviled, He suffered and He did not revile back, nor threaten

vs 24 - He took the sins of all mankind (1 John 2:2 the whole world) in order that all mankind should live righteously

vs 25 - all mankind has gone astray; and those who turn have turned from wandering without guidance to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.





Yes, the son sought out his father (vs 18).





The father never left the home. He waited and he watched for his son to return, but the father did not follow his son and drag him back:

Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. The father rejoiced to see his son. :cool:
You still didnt comprehend. Christs death brings His Sheep back to God.
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,745
1,362
113
You still didnt comprehend. Christs death brings His Sheep back to God.
a blanket "you still didnt comprehend" is more of your poor debate tactic due to your inability to refute the central point.

respond to the Scriptural proof provided:


reneweddaybyday said:

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
True the word "returned" is translated from the Greek word epistrephó.
It is also true that the word is used intransitively ... which denotes to turn, to turn oneself:
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
2. intransitive, (Winers Grammar, § 38, 1 (compare p. 26; Buttmann, 144 (126f)));
a. to turn, to turn oneself: ἐπί τόν κύριον and ἐπί τόν Θεόν, of Gentiles passing over to the religion of Christ, Acts 9:35; Acts 11:21; Acts 14:15; Acts 15:19; Acts 26:20, cf. 1 Peter 2:25; πρός τί, Acts 9:40; πρός τόν Θεόν, 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 3:16; ἀπό τίνος εἰς τί, Acts 26:18.
Reading the verse within the context ...
1 Pe 2:
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
vs 21 - all mankind is called because the Lord Jesus Christ suffered on behalf of all mankind (the whole world - 1 John 2:2)
vs 22 - the Lord Jesus Christ never sinned ... no guile was in His mouth (He always spoke Truth)
vs 23 - He was reviled, He suffered and He did not revile back, nor threaten
vs 24 - He took the sins of all mankind (1 John 2:2 the whole world) in order that all mankind should live righteously
vs 25 - all mankind has gone astray; and those who turn have turned from wandering without guidance to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.




I countered your point relating to Luke 15:

brightfame52 said:

You see the prodigal son had an application of healing upon him. This parable was to teach God's People the Love of the Father in bringing His gone astray children back to Himself


reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, the son sought out his father (vs 18).
The father never left the home. He waited and he watched for his son to return, but the father did not follow his son and drag him back:
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. The father rejoiced to see his son. :cool:

Please provide the verse in Luke 15:11-32 which shows the father pursued after the son, found him, and dragged him back home. Thank you.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
Accepted in the Beloved !

Christ's acceptance of God after finishing His Work here on Earth Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified Thee on the earth; I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do.

It was not that He was accepted as an private Person, but it was acceptation of all His Body the Church, or those given Him Vs2; For His acceptance was their being accepted along with Him, hence they were accepted or graced in the Beloved Eph 1:6

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherewith he hath made us freely accepted in his beloved.GB

Christ was given a work to do as the Churches High Priest, having therefore to offer Himself as a Sacrifice, to make atonement or reconciliation for the people Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Note: Christ's death was not for all without exception, but for a particular people.

Which atonement or reconciliation put away their sins forever, and for them it did satisfy God's Wrath He had against their sins against His Law. Heb 9:26

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

His sacrifice of Himself put away sin. That word phrase "put away" is the greek athetēsis and means:

abolition, disannulling, put away, rejection,to do away with completely.

And after this He appears in the immediate presence of a pacified Holy God for them Heb 9:24

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

24 For the Messiah has entered a Holiest Place which is not man-made and merely a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, in order to appear now on our behalf in the very presence of God. That is in behalf of all for whom He died, The sins of the People Heb 2:17

Now this denotes not only His acceptance in the favorable Presence of God, but also those for whom He sacrificed Himself in Behalf of.He is there in God's Presences at His Right Hand making Intercession for them Rom 8:334

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us[God's Elect].

This Intercession for them is on the basis of His Blood, His Sacrifice, which does effect an Favorable Divine Intervention in each of their Lives and they come to God through Him Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. The them of Rom 8:34, the Elect Vs 33 !

And by this, they are saved to the uttermost by His Life Rom 5:10b

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Yes, His Resurrection is here included because it was the first indication, token, or sign that His Sacrifice was accepted in route to His appearing in God's presence for us. All for whom Christ died are accepted by the Father even before they believe, reconciled even while enemies, because its not based upon their belief but on Christ's Blood.

That's why even while enemies, unbelievers, they have been reconciled to God. That word reconciled means :

to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

The reason why the are received into Favor is because they are being represented in the very presence of God by Christ for them Heb 9:24

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

So while we are enemies down here and unbelievers, we enjoy the gracious favor of God because of Christ in His Presences for us, if He died for you ! If He did, we are born as sinners into this world accepted in the Beloved, and shall be saved by His Life !
 
Nov 12, 2021
262
79
28
brightfame52 ---you said -----Do you understand that accomplishment ? What did the death of Christ purpose to do according to Eph 5:25-26 ?

This is the whole piece of Scripture you quote -----verses 25 and 26 from ------

Question -------So in your view what did the death of Christ accomplish here in these to verses you quote ?----

Ephesians 5 NIV

Instructions for Christian Households
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband
 
Nov 12, 2021
262
79
28
Christ's Healing Stripes !

1 Peter 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Christ's Healing stripes results in those He died for, those whose sins He bear in His own Body on the tree, results in them living unto righteousness, which is to live by Faith.
I say --to live by faith ---HOW ----is the real Question ????-----AND where does this Faith come from __????? AND what does this Faith do for us ???-----AND who or what do we have Faith in ????-------

Also the Stripes Jesus took on His Back-----How are we healed by them -----is it a miracle healing ???--is it a gradual healing --????? ----AND WHAT are we Healed From ---?????? ----in your 2 nd post on healing you say the stripes gives us our return to God -------it might look that way from the 2 verses you quote
here --but is that what it is really meaning -------if you look at the whole Scripture you see that it is about Christ being our Example to follow in our maturing in Christ ------

1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

I say ---
This is the whole part of the Scripture you quote only 2 verses from ------

1 Peter 2
Christ Is Our Example

21 For [as a believer] you have been called for this purpose, since Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you may follow in His footsteps.

22 He committed no sin, nor was deceit ever found in His mouth.

23 While being reviled and insulted, He did not revile or insult in return; while suffering, He made no threats [of vengeance], but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges fairly.

24 He personally carried our sins in His body on the [g]cross [willingly offering Himself on it, as on an altar of sacrifice], so that we might die to sin [becoming immune from the penalty and power of sin] and live for righteousness; for by His wounds you [who believe] have been [h]healed.

25 For you were continually wandering like [so many] sheep, but now you have come back to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

I say
So what is healed that is the Question ---???????

If we are going to try an teach others first we have to read the Context of the Scripture and ask the Holy Spirit for Guidance into revealing to us what the Scripture is really saying ----as we do not want to teach wrong Doctrine to others -----their eternal life is at stake and we should all be concerned that we teach rightly and not wrongly ----as God gives grave warnings to people who are teaching others -----


James 3

GOD’S WORD Translation
Speak Wisely

3 Brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers. You know that we who teach will be judged more severely.

2 All of us make a lot of mistakes. If someone doesn’t make any mistakes when he speaks, he would be perfect. He would be able to control everything he does.

3 We put bits in the mouths of horses to make them obey us, and we have control over everything they do. 4 The same thing is true for ships. They are very big and are driven by strong winds. Yet, by using small rudders, pilots steer ships wherever they want them to go. 5 In the same way the tongue is a small part of the body, but it can brag about doing important things.
A large forest can be set on fire by a little flame. 6 The tongue is that kind of flame. It is a world of evil among the parts of our bodies, and it completely contaminates our bodies. The tongue sets our lives on fire, and is itself set on fire from hell. 7 People have tamed all kinds of animals, birds, reptiles, and sea creatures. 8 Yet, no one can tame the tongue. It is an uncontrollable evil filled with deadly poison.
9 With our tongues we praise our Lord and Father. Yet, with the same tongues we curse people, who were created in God’s likeness. 10 Praise and curses come from the same mouth. My brothers and sisters, this should not happen! 11 Do clean and polluted water flow out of the same spring? 12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree produce olives? Can a grapevine produce figs? In the same way, a pool of salt water can’t produce fresh water.

I say ---
This is about the tongue but here we Write what we would speak ------so I say we should write wisely here -----

There is more to learn about the Healing Stripes Jesus took on His back for us -----just incase your interested ----:)
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
a blanket "you still didnt comprehend" is more of your poor debate tactic due to your inability to refute the central point.

respond to the Scriptural proof provided:


reneweddaybyday said:

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
True the word "returned" is translated from the Greek word epistrephó.
It is also true that the word is used intransitively ... which denotes to turn, to turn oneself:
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
2. intransitive, (Winers Grammar, § 38, 1 (compare p. 26; Buttmann, 144 (126f)));
a. to turn, to turn oneself: ἐπί τόν κύριον and ἐπί τόν Θεόν, of Gentiles passing over to the religion of Christ, Acts 9:35; Acts 11:21; Acts 14:15; Acts 15:19; Acts 26:20, cf. 1 Peter 2:25; πρός τί, Acts 9:40; πρός τόν Θεόν, 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 3:16; ἀπό τίνος εἰς τί, Acts 26:18.
Reading the verse within the context ...
1 Pe 2:
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
vs 21 - all mankind is called because the Lord Jesus Christ suffered on behalf of all mankind (the whole world - 1 John 2:2)
vs 22 - the Lord Jesus Christ never sinned ... no guile was in His mouth (He always spoke Truth)
vs 23 - He was reviled, He suffered and He did not revile back, nor threaten
vs 24 - He took the sins of all mankind (1 John 2:2 the whole world) in order that all mankind should live righteously
vs 25 - all mankind has gone astray; and those who turn have turned from wandering without guidance to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.




I countered your point relating to Luke 15:

brightfame52 said:

You see the prodigal son had an application of healing upon him. This parable was to teach God's People the Love of the Father in bringing His gone astray children back to Himself


reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, the son sought out his father (vs 18).
The father never left the home. He waited and he watched for his son to return, but the father did not follow his son and drag him back:
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. The father rejoiced to see his son. :cool:

Please provide the verse in Luke 15:11-32 which shows the father pursued after the son, found him, and dragged him back home. Thank you.
a blanket "you still didnt comprehend" is more of your poor debate tactic due to your inability to refute the central point.

respond to the Scriptural proof provided:


reneweddaybyday said:

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
True the word "returned" is translated from the Greek word epistrephó.
It is also true that the word is used intransitively ... which denotes to turn, to turn oneself:
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
2. intransitive, (Winers Grammar, § 38, 1 (compare p. 26; Buttmann, 144 (126f)));
a. to turn, to turn oneself: ἐπί τόν κύριον and ἐπί τόν Θεόν, of Gentiles passing over to the religion of Christ, Acts 9:35; Acts 11:21; Acts 14:15; Acts 15:19; Acts 26:20, cf. 1 Peter 2:25; πρός τί, Acts 9:40; πρός τόν Θεόν, 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 3:16; ἀπό τίνος εἰς τί, Acts 26:18.
Reading the verse within the context ...
1 Pe 2:
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
vs 21 - all mankind is called because the Lord Jesus Christ suffered on behalf of all mankind (the whole world - 1 John 2:2)
vs 22 - the Lord Jesus Christ never sinned ... no guile was in His mouth (He always spoke Truth)
vs 23 - He was reviled, He suffered and He did not revile back, nor threaten
vs 24 - He took the sins of all mankind (1 John 2:2 the whole world) in order that all mankind should live righteously
vs 25 - all mankind has gone astray; and those who turn have turned from wandering without guidance to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.




I countered your point relating to Luke 15:

brightfame52 said:

You see the prodigal son had an application of healing upon him. This parable was to teach God's People the Love of the Father in bringing His gone astray children back to Himself


reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, the son sought out his father (vs 18).
The father never left the home. He waited and he watched for his son to return, but the father did not follow his son and drag him back:
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. The father rejoiced to see his son. :cool:

Please provide the verse in Luke 15:11-32 which shows the father pursued after the son, found him, and dragged him back home. Thank you.
Its not a blanket statement, scripture was provided. The death of Christ was in order that it would bring back the lost sheep to God 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
brightfame52 ---you said -----Do you understand that accomplishment ? What did the death of Christ purpose to do according to Eph 5:25-26 ?

This is the whole piece of Scripture you quote -----verses 25 and 26 from ------

Question -------So in your view what did the death of Christ accomplish here in these to verses you quote ?----

Ephesians 5 NIV

Instructions for Christian Households
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband
Whats your point, do you want to answer the question or play evasion ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
I say --to live by faith ---HOW ----is the real Question ????-----AND where does this Faith come from __????? AND what does this Faith do for us ???-----AND who or what do we have Faith in ????-------

Also the Stripes Jesus took on His Back-----How are we healed by them -----is it a miracle healing ???--is it a gradual healing --????? ----AND WHAT are we Healed From ---?????? ----in your 2 nd post on healing you say the stripes gives us our return to God -------it might look that way from the 2 verses you quote
here --but is that what it is really meaning -------if you look at the whole Scripture you see that it is about Christ being our Example to follow in our maturing in Christ ------

1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

I say ---
This is the whole part of the Scripture you quote only 2 verses from ------

1 Peter 2
Christ Is Our Example

21 For [as a believer] you have been called for this purpose, since Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you may follow in His footsteps.

22 He committed no sin, nor was deceit ever found in His mouth.

23 While being reviled and insulted, He did not revile or insult in return; while suffering, He made no threats [of vengeance], but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges fairly.

24 He personally carried our sins in His body on the [g]cross [willingly offering Himself on it, as on an altar of sacrifice], so that we might die to sin [becoming immune from the penalty and power of sin] and live for righteousness; for by His wounds you [who believe] have been [h]healed.

25 For you were continually wandering like [so many] sheep, but now you have come back to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

I say
So what is healed that is the Question ---???????

If we are going to try an teach others first we have to read the Context of the Scripture and ask the Holy Spirit for Guidance into revealing to us what the Scripture is really saying ----as we do not want to teach wrong Doctrine to others -----their eternal life is at stake and we should all be concerned that we teach rightly and not wrongly ----as God gives grave warnings to people who are teaching others -----


James 3

GOD’S WORD Translation
Speak Wisely

3 Brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers. You know that we who teach will be judged more severely.

2 All of us make a lot of mistakes. If someone doesn’t make any mistakes when he speaks, he would be perfect. He would be able to control everything he does.

3 We put bits in the mouths of horses to make them obey us, and we have control over everything they do. 4 The same thing is true for ships. They are very big and are driven by strong winds. Yet, by using small rudders, pilots steer ships wherever they want them to go. 5 In the same way the tongue is a small part of the body, but it can brag about doing important things.
A large forest can be set on fire by a little flame. 6 The tongue is that kind of flame. It is a world of evil among the parts of our bodies, and it completely contaminates our bodies. The tongue sets our lives on fire, and is itself set on fire from hell. 7 People have tamed all kinds of animals, birds, reptiles, and sea creatures. 8 Yet, no one can tame the tongue. It is an uncontrollable evil filled with deadly poison.
9 With our tongues we praise our Lord and Father. Yet, with the same tongues we curse people, who were created in God’s likeness. 10 Praise and curses come from the same mouth. My brothers and sisters, this should not happen! 11 Do clean and polluted water flow out of the same spring? 12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree produce olives? Can a grapevine produce figs? In the same way, a pool of salt water can’t produce fresh water.

I say ---
This is about the tongue but here we Write what we would speak ------so I say we should write wisely here -----

There is more to learn about the Healing Stripes Jesus took on His back for us -----just incase your interested ----:)
Christs healing stripes will cause them He took stripes for to live spiritually unto God, to live by Faith.
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,745
1,362
113
All for whom Christ died are accepted by the Father even before they believe
nope ... again you rip a verse from its context in order to support a dogma not contained in Scripture.

your statement does not align with Scripture. The Author of Scripture has indicated in verses just before verse 10 that mankind is justified by faith:

Romans 4:20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Now, knowing mankind is justified by faith (and remembering when reading from vs 1 to vs 10) ... we read:

Romans 5:

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


vs 8 - Christ died for us while we were yet sinners ... before we were justified by faith (Rom 5:1)

vs 9 - being now justified (justified by faith as shown in Rom 5:1) we shall be saved from wrath through the Lord Jesus Christ

vs 10 - Christ died for us when we were enemies (before being justified by faith - Rom 5:1); much more being reconciled (justified by faith as shown in Rom 5:1), we shall be saved by His life.


Read the verse in the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it ... instead of jumping from John 17 to Ephesians 1 to Hebrews 2 to Hebrews 9 to Romans 8 to Hebrews 7 to Romans 5 back to Hebrews 9.


context context context

Context = The context of an idea or event is the general situation that relates to it, and which helps it to be understood
(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/context)

If a statement or remark is quoted out of context, the circumstances in which it was said are not correctly reported, so that it seems to mean something different from the meaning that was intended
(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-context)


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!


 
Mar 23, 2016
4,745
1,362
113
Its not a blanket statement, scripture was provided. The death of Christ was in order that it would bring back the lost sheep to God 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
All you are doing is repeating what you already submitted in Post 1001. I replied to you in Post #1004 and Post #1006.

Respond to the points in Post #1006:


reneweddaybyday said:


1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
True the word "returned" is translated from the Greek word epistrephó.
It is also true that the word is used intransitively ... which denotes to turn, to turn oneself:
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
2. intransitive, (Winers Grammar, § 38, 1 (compare p. 26; Buttmann, 144 (126f)));
a. to turn, to turn oneself: ἐπί τόν κύριον and ἐπί τόν Θεόν, of Gentiles passing over to the religion of Christ, Acts 9:35; Acts 11:21; Acts 14:15; Acts 15:19; Acts 26:20, cf. 1 Peter 2:25; πρός τί, Acts 9:40; πρός τόν Θεόν, 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 3:16; ἀπό τίνος εἰς τί, Acts 26:18.
Reading the verse within the context ...
1 Pe 2:
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
vs 21 - all mankind is called because the Lord Jesus Christ suffered on behalf of all mankind (the whole world - 1 John 2:2)
vs 22 - the Lord Jesus Christ never sinned ... no guile was in His mouth (He always spoke Truth)
vs 23 - He was reviled, He suffered and He did not revile back, nor threaten
vs 24 - He took the sins of all mankind (1 John 2:2 the whole world) in order that all mankind should live righteously
vs 25 - all mankind has gone astray; and those who turn have turned from wandering without guidance to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.




I countered your point relating to Luke 15:

brightfame52 said:

You see the prodigal son had an application of healing upon him. This parable was to teach God's People the Love of the Father in bringing His gone astray children back to Himself


reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, the son sought out his father (vs 18).
The father never left the home. He waited and he watched for his son to return, but the father did not follow his son and drag him back:
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. The father rejoiced to see his son. :cool:

Please provide the verse in Luke 15:11-32 which shows the father pursued after the son, found him, and dragged him back home. Thank you.
 
Nov 12, 2021
262
79
28
Whats your point, do you want to answer the question or play evasion ?
My point is for you to answer my question ------If you want to be the teacher of scripture you should be ready to answer questions that might be asks of you --

And Just for the RECORD ----I DON"T PLAY GAMES WITH SCRIPTURE --SCRIPTURE IS ALL ABOUT UNDERSTANDING ---not some game we play-----

My question to you was ----

Question -------So in your view what did the death of Christ accomplish here in these to verses you quote ?----
brightfame52 ---you said -----Do you understand that accomplishment ? What did the death of Christ purpose to do according to Eph 5:25-26 ?

Which says this -----

Ephesians 5 NIV


Instructions for Christian Households
`

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word,


i say
So !!!!!! Are you going to answer my Question or play evasion -----IF you want to be right ---then there is no point to your Threads ---as you refuse to have an open mind into discussing Scripture ------all you want to do is post it and be right ------no discussion in that ----------
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
nope ... again you rip a verse from its context in order to support a dogma not contained in Scripture.

your statement does not align with Scripture. The Author of Scripture has indicated in verses just before verse 10 that mankind is justified by faith:

Romans 4:20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Now, knowing mankind is justified by faith (and remembering when reading from vs 1 to vs 10) ... we read:

Romans 5:

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


vs 8 - Christ died for us while we were yet sinners ... before we were justified by faith (Rom 5:1)

vs 9 - being now justified (justified by faith as shown in Rom 5:1) we shall be saved from wrath through the Lord Jesus Christ

vs 10 - Christ died for us when we were enemies (before being justified by faith - Rom 5:1); much more being reconciled (justified by faith as shown in Rom 5:1), we shall be saved by His life.


Read the verse in the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it ... instead of jumping from John 17 to Ephesians 1 to Hebrews 2 to Hebrews 9 to Romans 8 to Hebrews 7 to Romans 5 back to Hebrews 9.


context context context

Context = The context of an idea or event is the general situation that relates to it, and which helps it to be understood (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/context)

If a statement or remark is quoted out of context, the circumstances in which it was said are not correctly reported, so that it seems to mean something different from the meaning that was intended (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-context)


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
They are accepted by the Father in Christ before they believed. In fact, God out of eternal love for them Chose them in Christ, put them in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4 which is why they are accepted in Him as early Eph 1:6

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
All you are doing is repeating what you already submitted in Post 1001. I replied to you in Post #1004 and Post #1006.

Respond to the points in Post #1006:


reneweddaybyday said:

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
True the word "returned" is translated from the Greek word epistrephó.
It is also true that the word is used intransitively ... which denotes to turn, to turn oneself:
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
2. intransitive, (Winers Grammar, § 38, 1 (compare p. 26; Buttmann, 144 (126f)));
a. to turn, to turn oneself: ἐπί τόν κύριον and ἐπί τόν Θεόν, of Gentiles passing over to the religion of Christ, Acts 9:35; Acts 11:21; Acts 14:15; Acts 15:19; Acts 26:20, cf. 1 Peter 2:25; πρός τί, Acts 9:40; πρός τόν Θεόν, 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 3:16; ἀπό τίνος εἰς τί, Acts 26:18.
Reading the verse within the context ...
1 Pe 2:
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
vs 21 - all mankind is called because the Lord Jesus Christ suffered on behalf of all mankind (the whole world - 1 John 2:2)
vs 22 - the Lord Jesus Christ never sinned ... no guile was in His mouth (He always spoke Truth)
vs 23 - He was reviled, He suffered and He did not revile back, nor threaten
vs 24 - He took the sins of all mankind (1 John 2:2 the whole world) in order that all mankind should live righteously
vs 25 - all mankind has gone astray; and those who turn have turned from wandering without guidance to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.




I countered your point relating to Luke 15:

brightfame52 said:

You see the prodigal son had an application of healing upon him. This parable was to teach God's People the Love of the Father in bringing His gone astray children back to Himself


reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, the son sought out his father (vs 18).
The father never left the home. He waited and he watched for his son to return, but the father did not follow his son and drag him back:
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. The father rejoiced to see his son. :cool:

Please provide the verse in Luke 15:11-32 which shows the father pursued after the son, found him, and dragged him back home. Thank you.
Truth needs to be repeated. Christs death is the catalyst for sinners coming to God. Thats why Hebrews says Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

By Him means because of Him, His Death and Intercession for them. He gets the credit !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
63
My point is for you to answer my question ------If you want to be the teacher of scripture you should be ready to answer questions that might be asks of you --

And Just for the RECORD ----I DON"T PLAY GAMES WITH SCRIPTURE --SCRIPTURE IS ALL ABOUT UNDERSTANDING ---not some game we play-----

My question to you was ----

Question -------So in your view what did the death of Christ accomplish here in these to verses you quote ?----
brightfame52 ---you said -----Do you understand that accomplishment ? What did the death of Christ purpose to do according to Eph 5:25-26 ?

Which says this -----

Ephesians 5 NIV

Instructions for Christian Households
`

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word,


i say
So !!!!!! Are you going to answer my Question or play evasion -----IF you want to be right ---then there is no point to your Threads ---as you refuse to have an open mind into discussing Scripture ------all you want to do is post it and be right ------no discussion in that ----------
Then your point is to evade my point !
 
Jan 15, 2022
271
20
18
By Him means because of Him, His Death and Intercession for them. He gets the credit !
but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. John7:18

I don't think there is a better way to gauge the sincerity of a persons christianity than if in their heart they want God to have all the glory/praise/credit
 
Nov 12, 2021
262
79
28
So Now
Then your point is to evade my point !
A BIG COP OUT Statement Here -----

I don't think you are able to answer MY QUESTION ------and so YOUR EVADING Everyone who Challenges you -----Cause All you like to do is POST THE SCRIPTURE without anyone Challenging you ------and because you don't know the answer --you have to Turn the table on the Person saying they are evading the Question ------YOUR PLAYING THE BLAME GAME ------

YOU should take this Scripture and really put it into action ------by researching and relying on the Holy Spirit who will guide into the truth of the Scripture -----and give you understanding so you can be a teacher of the Word not just a poster of the Word with no understanding of it ------