The Bible debate

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Reformedjason

Guest
Saying the doctrine is clearer in the Kjv is just silly. The language in the esv is more clear so the doctrine found is more clear. Just because you wish the Kjv is the only version with all doctrine it does not make it so. If you like the Kjv that is fine. Saying a person serious about doctrine and being a student has to use the Kjv is wrong and honestly funny. Most major scholars today use the nasb or the esv
 

LovePink

Deactivated upon user request
Dec 13, 2013
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Strike,

Thanks for your post. I have decided not to make the thread.


Jason,

Ok, lets look at something-

Scripture interprets Scripture, there needs to be a method of study or else we end up with this madness we see in Christendom. I use three methods, literal, comparison & dispensational (RD). The structure in the arrangement of the books is important to understand for doctrine, as well as appreciation of the inspired words.


17*For in it*the*righteousness of God is revealed*from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous*man*shall live by faith.” (NASB)


17*For in it*the righteousness of God is revealed*from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” (ESV)


17*For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.(KJV)

The doctrine to be found here is the foundation of the Gospel of the grace of God, justification, propitiation and the faith of God. This verse has absolutely nothing to do with us or our faith. There are a few verses that interpret this verse;


To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


By changing one word "faith FOR faith" context & doctrine is lost, people insert our faith here, even worse they try to insert it in Eph 2:8. Plus, if we hold to the doctrine of Romans the Just One is Christ, Isaiah calls Him "Mine elect", Ps 2, gives the decree of Him, the Son being the One God the Father vests in "predetermined". Romans 1:17 is showing how grace was born in God, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit from eternity. God the Father puts faith in His Son and promises eternal life. The Son puts trust in the Father and His promises, "faith to faith" this is eternal love made manifest and magnified by the Holy Spirit "the Spirit of truth", which created grace & eternal life before time, because of the righteousness of Christ. You cannot mess with the words or you make a mess of God's doctrine. Absolutely.
 
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Reformedjason

Guest
Well, I disagree with you and it is ok. Eph 2:8 is talking about our faith. Christ saves us through faith. Our faith in him
 
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Reformedjason

Guest
When did what "major scholars" use or think become more important than God?
I said they used the esv or nasb not they were more important than God. Your post makes no sense.
 

LovePink

Deactivated upon user request
Dec 13, 2013
481
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Well, I disagree with you and it is ok. Eph 2:8 is talking about our faith. Christ saves us through faith. Our faith in him
Oh, have you done a word study on the "faith of Christ", use the King James Bible for this truth. We have access to grace, by the faith of Christ, not of ourselves it is the gift of God. We are the called of Christ, called by the gospel of grace, the gospel of our salvation, this gospel includes the doctrine of righteousness & justification by faith that is in Him. That is what Romans 1-5 is all about, the mechanics of getting out of Adam and "into" Christ. The epistles of Paul continuously preach salvation by "believing"- when we trust the doctrine of propitiation "delivered for our offences" and believe the testimony of God "was raised for our justification" imputation, His faith saves us & becomes ours "his faith is counted for righteousness"


22*Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe : for there is no difference

13*In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Gal 5:22 kjv has "faith" as a fruit of the Spirit for a reason. Christ's faith is part of our armor also, Eph 6:16


20*I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The excellency of the words are for the doctrine of God. It is the difference between theology of men "about" God and the "knowledge of God"


7*Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
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phil112

Guest
I said they used the esv or nasb not they were more important than God. Your post makes no sense.
If the KJV is the inspired word of God, then who gives a hoot if "major scholars" are swooning over another version? How else can your post be taken? You brought them into the conversation.
 
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Reformedjason

Guest
The Kjv is no more inspired then the nasb or esv, so your post makes no sense. Scholars that know much more than you or I use modern translations.
 
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GaryA

Guest
Inspiration is not the key issue here. Translation is.

The original Word was inspired.

After that, it was either translated well -- or, it was corrupted / perverted - to varying extents.

Some of the manuscripts were corrupted / perverted. ( Think: Wescott & Hort )

The key issue is -- how corrupted / perverted is your bible version?

:)
 
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phil112

Guest
With my Strongs concordance and Zondervan parallel I can verify the KJV's veracity. What possible need is there for another version?
Paul got his gospel from Christ, not man, and Christ got His gospel from God. Paul told us he was writing to show us what had previously been hidden. He wrote to the gentiles specifically to show us the mystery.
What possible need do I have for "major scholars" to tell me something they have gleaned from another version when Paul has already clearly explained it?

"major scholars" and "learned biblical professors", or "bible college educated" teachers, are all unneeded. God told us to study to show ourselves approved to Him, and Paul gave His word to us so that we can do exactly that.

People set themselves up on pedestals and act like elitists, exactly like the pharisees and saducees did. Christ said: Don't do that. I do not need, nor want, someone looking down their nose at me as if the bible is something only they can decipher.
 
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LT

Guest
With my Strongs concordance and Zondervan parallel I can verify the KJV's veracity. What possible need is there for another version?
Paul got his gospel from Christ, not man, and Christ got His gospel from God. Paul told us he was writing to show us what had previously been hidden. He wrote to the gentiles specifically to show us the mystery.
What possible need do I have for "major scholars" to tell me something they have gleaned from another version when Paul has already clearly explained it?

"major scholars" and "learned biblical professors", or "bible college educated" teachers, are all unneeded. God told us to study to show ourselves approved to Him, and Paul gave His word to us so that we can do exactly that.

People set themselves up on pedestals and act like elitists, exactly like the pharisees and saducees did. Christ said: Don't do that. I do not need, nor want, someone looking down their nose at me as if the bible is something only they can decipher.
there is no need for you, because you are comfortable in it. If you understand it, you need nothing else.
 
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Kerry

Guest
With my Strongs concordance and Zondervan parallel I can verify the KJV's veracity. What possible need is there for another version?
Paul got his gospel from Christ, not man, and Christ got His gospel from God. Paul told us he was writing to show us what had previously been hidden. He wrote to the gentiles specifically to show us the mystery.
What possible need do I have for "major scholars" to tell me something they have gleaned from another version when Paul has already clearly explained it?

"major scholars" and "learned biblical professors", or "bible college educated" teachers, are all unneeded. God told us to study to show ourselves approved to Him, and Paul gave His word to us so that we can do exactly that.

People set themselves up on pedestals and act like elitists, exactly like the pharisees and saducees did. Christ said: Don't do that. I do not need, nor want, someone looking down their nose at me as if the bible is something only they can decipher.
How many teenagers help me out LT know what an 8-track tape is? I will go further, How many teens know what a cassette tape is. Lets go on back , LT have you ever heard or know what a beta max is ?
 
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phil112

Guest
The Kjv is no more inspired then the nasb or esv, so your post makes no sense. Scholars that know much more than you or I use modern translations.
No, they do not know more about God's plan of salvation for me than I do. You? Sounds like it, but not me.

there is no need for you, because you are comfortable in it. If you understand it, you need nothing else.
I understand LT, I am just trying to make reformedjason see that not everyone is incapable of reading and understanding something that was written specifically for them.
He tossed "major scholars" out there like they are somebody more special than plain old folks like me.
Did I mention that I disdain elitist attitudes? :p
I am no respecter of persons, either.
 
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phil112

Guest
How many teenagers help me out LT know what an 8-track tape is? I will go further, How many teens know what a cassette tape is. Lets go on back , LT have you ever heard or know what a beta max is ?
Heh...I had a four track. When years passed, I moved to an eight track, then got a cassette adapter that plugged into the eight track so I could play cassettes.
Hated it when CDs came along and obsoleted my library.
 
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LT

Guest
How many teenagers help me out LT know what an 8-track tape is? I will go further, How many teens know what a cassette tape is. Lets go on back , LT have you ever heard or know what a beta max is ?
8-track I've heard of, never saw one.
Cassette I do know, because we used them in elementary school to record the classroom audio for a project.
beta max.... ????? is that some kind of tessla coil or like a theremin?
 
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Kerry

Guest
Be cautious with newer translations, Be well founded in Christ first. I have many translations with some in french and german and spanish. I find that some words can have a multitude of meanings when cross referenced with many languages. Yet false teachers will use this to their advantage. In any translation, The cross of Christ must be the main theme and focal point as it should be in our lives. Many new trans are shaped and formed to account for certain doctrines and are not literal translations such as the amplified and the living and the message and close to it though it has been revised many times already the NIV. Get yourself a Kings and a strongs and refer to it as read your new translation. You could get a codex and a septuagint, but, then you will find yourself in a futile attempt with many hours that do do not produce fruit. This is a common thing among man by trying to understand God in our own intellect, which is impossible. We need the Holy Spirit to reveal the word of God to us in any shape form or fashion. Gos if He willed could supply us with a perfect bible in any language if he so chose. But, guess what He didn't. You can only please God by faith in any decent translation. Trust in the Lord and lean not to your own understanding. Yet have faith in the truth that the Holy Spirit reveals to you. Amen. Wow thats good.
 
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Reformedjason

Guest
No, they do not know more about God's plan of salvation for me than I do. You? Sounds like it, but not me.

Just because I disagree with you I get this. Great your acting consistantly with other kjv olyist. I bet you like ruckman and riplinger as well.
 
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Wanderers

Guest
With my Strongs concordance and Zondervan parallel I can verify the KJV's veracity. What possible need is there for another version?
Paul got his gospel from Christ, not man, and Christ got His gospel from God. Paul told us he was writing to show us what had previously been hidden. He wrote to the gentiles specifically to show us the mystery.
What possible need do I have for "major scholars" to tell me something they have gleaned from another version when Paul has already clearly explained it?

"major scholars" and "learned biblical professors", or "bible college educated" teachers, are all unneeded. God told us to study to show ourselves approved to Him, and Paul gave His word to us so that we can do exactly that.

People set themselves up on pedestals and act like elitists, exactly like the pharisees and saducees did. Christ said: Don't do that. I do not need, nor want, someone looking down their nose at me as if the bible is something only they can decipher.
Whilst we should all agree with the sentiments about 'people looking down their noses' and not needing scholars to decipher the meaning, I think we should also remember that it was scholars who re-discovered the original languages, learnt it then set to task to translate the bible. Erasmus, Tyndale, Wycliffe et al all had to have scholarly leanings to be able to do what they did. And praise God that this was so or we would all have to learn Latin or rely on the priests to tell us the word of god.

Thus, the KJV was as much the result of scholars as are modern translations. If my understanding is correct, the fact that there is no major doctrinal difference in translations (unless we include such things as the New World Translation) speaks volumes of the overall accuracy of the bible.

I am aware of how modern translations tend to qualify their superiority by referring to the fact they used earlier (and more reliable) texts. This can in part be refuted by other scholars because those 'earlier' texts, of which there were two, were in fact quite corrupt. However, modern discoveries and understanding of the ancient language and meanings do help more modern translations be 'up to date'.

When all is said and done, I think it comes down to what an individual prefers and where he or she is in their Christian faith. I know of some who started off with the Message and later transferred to the NIV. Or from the NIV to the NKJV or NASB. I

have also spent time before Christmas last year with a group from small independent Baptist church who swear allegiance to the KJV and, although they tolerate other bibles, I doubt that those bibles would last long if an individual was to join their church! Still, we all know of churches who use their own preferred bibles so it was no big deal to me. I think the problem arises when we put the bible on an alter and worship it in place of God.

What was it Jesus said 'these are the words that speak of me yet you refuse to come to me to have life'?
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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I think I covered that fairly well, though possibly not in this thread (sweet mercy there are a lot of these threads floating around).

It's the most uber protestant translation out there alongside the Geneva, and I don't place as much faith in the Nestle-Aland (and thus UBS) Greek New Testaments as the majority of modern scholars do. That's just me as a layman making the most informed decision I can, as I don't actually read Greek. A handful of complete manuscripts don't compare to thousands. Stastically I think you're going to get a much more accurate reading if you poll across thousands of data points instead of five. Yes, they added in bits from the dead sea scrolls etc, but the Nestle's text still started out as a compilation of the translation of several unical codices (including work by Westcott and Hort). Unless the source documents have changed completely in newer versions of the Nestle-Aland text some of that influence is still there.

I also greatly prefer the method earlier translators used to the critical method in use today, even if it might be considered less scholarly. The protestant reformation was in full swing, and the emphasis was on the divinity of Christ, and the casting aside of paganism. Any verse that could be translated as a reference to the deity of Christ was translated that way. I greatly prefer that. There are a few places where they missed it, but they got it right quite a bit.

If someone came along with a new bible based upon the majority of texts, I'd probably consider it. The NKJV tried to do that and failed to captivate my attention. There is no greek majority text though, and 100 years of scholarship favors a different mode of translation than I'd prefer.

Like I said though, I have an NASB, and an NIV, and several other translations. I'm not condemning people who use them, nor am I demanding everyone learn English to be saved, or several other arguments I see the KJV only crowd sometimes using. It's not helping the case for why the KJV is still a good translation.
Now, again, I'm not knocking the use of the KJV here. This thread, and many of the posts in it, are advocating a KJV-only position, and that's what I take issue with. Some posts in reply criticise the KJV, which is fair enough if they are attempting to counter arguments from KJV-Onlyists. But for myself, and many others in this thread, the point is simply this - if you want to use a KJV, fine. Nothing wrong with that. You can hear the gospel from the KJV. It's when it is elevated to some near perfect and specially inspired status above other faithful and accurate translations that it becomes an issue.

However, I do want to address something you bring up. You do not need to be a scholar to understand this (I'm a layman just as you are, although I have a more than passing grasp of the Greek), but I still feel like you misunderstand the core premise behind the critical text. The premise on which many of the modern translations work is this - an older reading is to be prefered to a newer reading, unless there are particular circumstances that favour a newer reading.

I'll illustrate it like this - let's say you are playing chinese whispers with 1000 people. The first person says "The sky is blue."
The second person mishears, and says "the pie is blue." Every subsequent person hears accurately, and repeats "The pie is blue". Thus, you have 999 people saying "the pie is blue". 999/1 seems impressive, until you realise that if you are trying to discern what the first person said, all 999 points are inaccurate.

The premise behind textual criticism works in a similar way. You cannot simply tally up the number of manuscripts and go with whatever reading is attested the most. What matters is 'what did the original autographs actually say?' The best way to determine this is to find the earliest MSS, and see what they say.

Also, it's worth pointing out there very few translations rely solely on the uncial codices, simply because there are several MSS of particular parts of the NT that are older, and thus more favourable. Some of these agree with the codices anyway, some do not (usually in minor respects). The Codices themselves are still very useful, however, mostly because those manuscripts are still older than many of the Greek texts used in majority texts. For instance, when Erasmus compiled the TR, which served as a based for the KJV, he relied mostly on a set of Greek texts all dating almost a millennium (a couple more) later than the uncial codices, and even more compared to some minuscules used in the critical texts. Several passages (off the top of my head I think they were in Revelation) were simply back translated from the LAtin Vulgate, instead of from any extant Greek manuscript available at the time

It's also worth pointing out that I am not at all interested in 'which translation uses source texts that best accentuate the deity of Christ.' . I am not at all interested in glosses on the original text, even orthodox ones. I do not want a translation that begs the question. I simply want to know what the apostles, and those working with them, originally wrote. And I happen to think they highlighted the deity of Christ enough as it is!
 
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Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
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Inspiration is not the key issue here. Translation is.

The original Word was inspired.

After that, it was either translated well -- or, it was corrupted / perverted - to varying extents.

Some of the manuscripts were corrupted / perverted. ( Think: Wescott & Hort )

The key issue is -- how corrupted / perverted is your bible version?

:)
So we're clear, translation is no the key issue. Translation is only an issue when going from the Greek to any other language. For at least hundreds, if not 1000+ years, the main issue interms of potential corruption is not translation, but simply copying. Scribes made mistakes, or scribes deliberately glossed or added to the text (often in minor and often orthodox ways. But for an accurate copy of the Greek manuscripts, no translation was required - you simply had to write out exactly what they guy before you had written out. The first period where translation became an issue was translation into LAtin (i.e. the Vulgate), because not only do you change the words, but you also add in the usual possibility of someone copying the word incorrectly.

And I often hear people claim the critical text sources are corrupted. It would be helpful if you could provide positive proof, please.