The book of Job, my favorite book.

[christophernyc]

He had caplete faith in the lord and walk by faith and not sight.
I dont think defending yourself means job thought he was more self rightoues then God. This was not a judgment done to Job for a wrong doing.

Exactly! Thank you. Some people seem to have this idea that Job says he is more righteous than God deeply embedded in their heads. It seems the reason for that is because this is what Elihu (alone) says. From what I have seen, looking at this entire story through the lens of Elihu is precarious at best. Some people even want to go back and change basic facts about the entire story because of Elihu's words. Kinda frightening.

 

[christophernyc]

God said to Job, "Will you condemn me, that you might be righteous."
Elihu said to Job, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Again, these are *questions* God asks Job. They are not *accusations*. Big difference. Questions provide grace. Accusations conclude condemnation.

This, too, is a huge discrepancy between God's communication with Job and Elihu's communication with Job. The very nature of how each of them are speaking to Job is completely different.

 

[vassal]

The consensus is that the three friends lied, but more importantly that Elihu lied. Elihu had six chapters of the book, and if he lied throughout, as some say he did, then how are we to trust any book in the Bible?

Job's friends—Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar—try to comfort JOB but ultimately speak things (NOT LIES) that are not pleasing to God. They argue that Job’s suffering must be a punishment for sin, suggesting that he must have done something wrong to deserve his plight. This reflects a rigid belief in retribution, and inplies that good people are rewarded and bad people are punished.
God ultimately rebukes these friends for not speaking rightly about Him, stating that they have misrepresented His character and the nature of suffering. In contrast, Job’s honest grappling with his suffering and his appeal to God’s justice are viewed more favourably. This teaches that simplistic answers to suffering can be misguided and that a more nuanced understanding is necessary.

Read the answer of GOD to Job's friends below you will understand;
Job 42:7-9 (NKJV):
7 "And so it was, after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, 'My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.
8 Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to your folly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.'
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did as the Lord commanded them; for the Lord had accepted Job."

This passage shows God's correction of Job's friends for their misrepresentation of Him.

This is a lesson for us all that what we think of GOD is not always right and that GOD is Holy and always do what is right. Sometimes we simply do not understand because all is not revealed to us and also because God's perfection cannot be understood fully by us little humans with limited capacity, This if where faith in GOD is so important and should never waiver.

Several passages in the Bible convey the idea that God is far above us and that His ways and thoughts are far beyond our understanding. For instance, in Isaiah 55:8-9;,

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Job 11:7-9 also emphasizes this theme:

“Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than the heavens above—what can you do? They are deeper than the depths below—what can you know?”

Psalm 145:3 declares, “Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom.”

Blessings.

 

[daisyseesthesun]

Exactly! Thank you. Some people seem to have this idea that Job says he is more righteous than God deeply embedded in their heads. It seems the reason for that is because this is what Elihu (alone) says. From what I have seen, looking at this entire story through the lens of Elihu is precarious at best. Some people even want to go back and change basic facts about the entire story because of Elihu's words. Kinda frightening.

Christopher,

It's not kind of frightening its frightening.

I think the whole book of Job proves that the righteous suffer just like the non Christian. I would never accuse Job with being in the wrong. Have I ever suffered as Job did. No. I don't think people should be judging Job. If you were in Jobs place, wouldn't you want to know why?

When God said who of my servant can compare to Job he meant it. Hes our father that see the past, present and future all at the same time. He could have been referring to everyone out of all people on earth at any given time. Now Billy graham says the book of Job was written first. If it was written first this means God considers it important. It could mean that he wants us all to be like job. To walk by faith and not sight, to get up early and make God our number 1 priority. A man that feared God and stayed away from evil.

And God restores Job

 

[daisyseesthesun]

So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. He had also seven sons and three daughters. And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Keren-happuch. And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren. After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.

 

[daisyseesthesun]

No one can compare to Jesus, but we can all try to be like Job.

 

[christophernyc]

Christopher,

It's not kind of frightening its frightening.

I think the whole book of Job proves that the righteous suffer just like the non Christian. I would never accuse Job with being in the wrong. Have I ever suffered as Job did. No. I don't think people should be judging Job. If you were in Jobs place, wouldn't you want to know why?

When God said who of my servant can compare to Job he meant it. Hes our father that see the past, present and future all at the same time. He could have been referring to everyone out of all people on earth at any given time. Now Billy graham says the book of Job was written first. If it was written first this means God considers it important. It could mean that he wants us all to be like job. To walk by faith and not sight, to get up early and make God our number 1 priority. A man that feared God and stayed away from evil.

And God restores Job

Yes, yes, and yes. Thank you!

The idea that the Book of Job was written first makes sense. I would describe it then as the cornerstone for the rest of the books in the bible. I might go so far as to say it is the blueprint for the rest of the bible.

There are profound striking parallels between Job and his ordeal compared to Jesus and His ordeal of suffering and dying on the Cross. The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus I believe is the single most important event in all history. So wouldn't it make sense that the first book God allowed to be written for holy Scripture is a story that points us (way ahead of time) to that most significant event?

Thank you for your posts and feedback. Glad you are stating these things!

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

My question still remains: why does God call Job blameless, one who fears God and shuns evil, if Job is full of pride? Isn't pride a sin? This point of view is different from what we read during the behind-the-scenes details being provided in chapters 1 & 2.

Accordion to your paradigms. Job, of course WASN'T blameless, and was as much a SINNER, and short of the Glory of God as everybody else IS. Whether you like or not, God was AFTER two things in Job in order to make him BETTER than he was. And the entire process that GOD CAUSED had exactly the effect that God intended for it to have - Job REPENTED, and was subsequently restored.

Elihu was CLOSR to the real issue than the other friends who also learned (we think) some things. BUT HE WAS STILL 'speaking words without knowledge -

It strikes me that the PRIMARY VALUE in the book is to reveal the extreme EXTENTS that God will go to, in order to correct issues that we may have in our constantly developing Christian walk (Roman 8:28,29).

 

[tttallison]

Job made two requests of God for a mediator. One request was in Job 9:32-35 and the other request was in Job 13:19-22. Elihu was the mediator that God sent. You only have to compare the two requests of Job, chapters 9:32-35 and 13:19-22, with the statement of Elihu in Job 33:5-7. God sent a young man so that Job wouldn't fear him.

The two requests of Job are found in Job 9:32-35 Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Job 9:35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

AND

Job 13:19-22 Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Job 13:22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

Notice that Job first requests a mediator. Then Job asks God to take his hand away. Then he asks God to not make him afraid. Then if God does this Job says he will speak. (Can you see that these two requests are very similar.)

Then enters Elihu, and he says, Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.

In a court of Law this would be the judge ordering the defendant to stand up and make a plea.

Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. (There is no need for God to reaffirm who Elihu is. This is the answer to Job's request and Job understands it.)

Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee. (We should now understand why Job was a young man. A young man would put no fear in Job. Elihu has fulfilled the requests of Job in order for him to make his plea.)

 

[christophernyc]

Accordion to your paradigms. Job, of course WASN'T blameless, and was as much a SINNER, and short of the Glory of God as everybody else IS. Whether you like or not, God was AFTER two things in Job in order to make him BETTER than he was. And the entire process that GOD CAUSED had exactly the effect that God intended for it to have - Job REPENTED, and was subsequently restored.

Elihu was CLOSR to the real issue than the other friends who also learned (we think) some things. BUT HE WAS STILL 'speaking words without knowledge -

It strikes me that the PRIMARY VALUE in the book is to reveal the extreme EXTENTS that God will go to, in order to correct issues that we may have in our constantly developing Christian walk (Roman 8:28,29).

First of all, I agree with you that Job grew as a person as a result of his ordeal. Seeing God at the end of the story must have been Job's biggest revelation ever, I would conclude. He could never have been the same after that.

Now for Job's blamelessness, this is not to imply that he never sinned. That's preposterous. No, Job was a sinner like anyone else, but he also had a habit of turning to God when he sinned and was restored by God. This is how Job lived his life habitually.

Job 10:14 "If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity."

Now when Job's ordeal begins, it is very clear that Job is at that moment in right standing with God. The suffering comes, but he has not done anything wrong to deserve it. This could not be more explicit in the text. Additionally, Job is crying out to God, asking God what sin he has committed. He wants to know so he can have his relationship with God restored. Does a proud person ask to be shown their sin? Where have you seen someone full of pride asking to be told where they are wrong?

I might also point out that your insistence that God put Job through this ordeal because of his sin is the same attitude of Job's three friends. Did you notice that? It seems your thinking is caught in the same mindset as them. But in the end, God rebuked the three friends because they were wrong.

 

[christophernyc]

This is so good. Thank you for laying this all out. I heartily agree with so many of these parallels you have provided here. I think we are looking at the same thing in much the same way, however, I look at it with a much different mindset.

Elihu is clearly making that connection between Job's request for a mediator and Elihu. No doubt. Elihu has been there listening to everything Job and his friends were saying, so Elihu no doubt heard Job's request. You then conclude that "Elihu is the mediator God sent", but is he? Yes, Elihu makes that *claim*, but is it true? Is there any confirmation for this anywhere else in this story? No. This idea only exists in the mouth of Elihu. Red Flag.

Later you stated, "There is no need for God to reaffirm who Elihu is. This is the answer to Job's request and Job understands it." How do you know Job understands it? How are you concluding that? Where is the evidence? If it's because Job is silent, I have other reasons for why that's the case.

I think people are deceived by Elihu. He "sounds" nice, I guess, but remember at the beginning of his speech when it says *four* times that he is full of anger. Would you want your mediator to be full of anger when they go on a long-winded speech at you? How does that make sense?

It seems Elihu is more of a svengali than any kind of true mediator. At least, he's not the real mediator Job needs.

Also, what do you think about this verse?

Job 34:36 "My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men."

Elihu is wishing torture upon Job. Is this the kind of person you would want to represent you in a court of law? Someone pleading for your perpetual punishment? No thanks. Yet another Red Flag.

Elihu says it is for Job's "answers like wicked men", but as we already know, God says that Job spoke rightly about God.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Additionally, Job is crying out to God, asking God what sin he has committed.

And God shows him in the only way possible. Problem solved.

He wants to know so he can have his relationship with God restored. Does a proud person ask to be shown their sin? Where have you seen someone full of pride asking to be told where they are wrong?[/quote}

Chuckle!!!! Chapter 23 is where Job develops "I" trouble.

I might also point out that your insistence that God put Job through this ordeal because of his sin is the same attitude of Job's three friends.

His friends were concentrating on a "Sin of commission", while God was concentration of internal issues (Leviathan, and Behemoth) that were holding Job back from what he COULD BE without them.

 

[christophernyc]

And God shows him in the only way possible. Problem solved.

So your position is that Job is suffering because of his sins (pride and self-reliance). Is that right? Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

So your position is that Job is suffering because of his sins (pride and self-reliance). Is that right? Am I understanding you correctly?

That's the reason that God kicked off the process - to bring to light those issues so that Job could respond appropriately (Job 42:6 ). It's ALL about the redemptive process.

REMEMBER - Job as an OLD TESTAMENT SAINT didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit as we do in 2024. (John 14:17)

 

[christophernyc]

That's the reason that God kicked off the process - to bring to light those issues so that Job could respond appropriately (Job 42:6 ). It's ALL about the redemptive process.

REMEMBER - Job as an OLD TESTAMENT SAINT didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit as we do in 2024. (John 14:17)

So your answer to the question is "yes"? You do believe Job is suffering because of his sin. And your position is that it is to bring Job's sin to light so Job can respond appropriately. Got it.

Have you wondered why we are not told this about Job in the beginning of the story in chapters 1 & 2? Why are we not told this about Job when we are introduced to him?

Also, I believe I asked this before, but why does God admit he allowed Job to suffer *without cause* in 2:3? Why does God say the opposite of what you are saying?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

So your answer to the question is "yes"?

CHuckle!! What was your first clue????

You do believe Job is suffering because of his sin. And your position is that it is to bring Job's sin to light so Job can respond appropriately. Got it.

"SIN" really isn't on the table. Job had two SPECIFIC areas in his life that God wanted to correct, because they were holding Job back from a better understanding / trusting of God. Why did Job think it was a good idea to "Offer sacrifices" for his relatives???

Have you wondered why we are not told this about Job in the beginning of the story in chapters 1 & 2? Why are we not told this about Job when we are introduced to him?

Nope - I NEVER WONDERED - why the story was written the way it was written.

Also, I believe I asked this before, but why does God admit he allowed Job to suffer *without cause* in 2:3? Why does God say the opposite of what you are saying?

There was no "SINFUL CAUSE". Only two specific INTERNAL PROCLIVITIES that were holding Job Back.

I appears that the ONLY THING you know about Job is the first two chapters.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why did Job think it was a good idea to "Offer sacrifices" for his relatives???

Not his relatives but his children. So Job was already aware that there must be offerings for sin. God was definitely not "correcting" Job is any way, and it is God who said what is said in Job 1:1. Now notice this (Job 2:9,10): Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. In chapter 3 he cursed the day in which he was born, and so would anyone else in his situation.

But God was actually establishing Job's righteousness before Satan and the heavenly host. And in the end God declared him to be righteous as we see in Ezekiel 14:14: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

The book of Job and Job himself are so greatly misunderstood by Christians today. Not sure about commentators, and not too interested in their comments either.

 

[daisyseesthesun]

Not his relatives but his children. So Job was already aware that there must be offerings for sin. God was definitely not "correcting" Job is any way, and it is God who said what is said in Job 1:1. Now notice this (Job 2:9,10): Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. In chapter 3 he cursed the day in which he was born, and so would anyone else in his situation.

But God was actually establishing Job's righteousness before Satan and the heavenly host. And in the end God declared him to be righteous as we see in Ezekiel 14:14: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

The book of Job and Job himself are so greatly misunderstood by Christians today. Not sure about commentators, and not too interested in their comments either.

we are kind of like Jobs friends thinking we know Gods intensions?

 

[Nehemiah6]

we are kind of like Jobs friends thinking we know Gods intensions?

We do know God's intentions regarding Job. So what's your point? And Job's "friends" said that he experienced those calamities because he had sinned. But I have shown from the book of Job that he had not sinned in any way.

 

[christophernyc]

CHuckle!! What was your first clue????



"SIN" really isn't on the table. Job had two SPECIFIC areas in his life that God wanted to correct, because they were holding Job back from a better understanding / trusting of God. Why did Job think it was a good idea to "Offer sacrifices" for his relatives???



Nope - I NEVER WONDERED - why the story was written the way it was written.



There was no "SINFUL CAUSE". Only two specific INTERNAL PROCLIVITIES that were holding Job Back.

I appears that the ONLY THING you know about Job is the first two chapters.

You agreed that "yes" you believe Job sinned to incur his suffering. Then you write that "sin really isn't on the table." Which is it? Do you believe Job sinned to incur his suffering or not?

If you read other things I've posted, I don't think you would assume I only know the first two chapters of Job. The reason for focusing on chapters 1 & 2 here in these exchanges is to see if we are working from the same fundamental understanding of the story. If the basic facts as written in Scripture are not set right, I don't think discussing the rest of the book makes sense. If you understand the entire premise of the story differently from what I do, how can we then proceed in any beneficial discussion?