The book of Job, my favorite book.
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No, I would not reduce this story to just a wager. Yet part of the story is that there is a challenge being put forth. That is the premise that launches Job's ordeal. Will Job curse God if he suffers or not? That is what we watch play out until God appears in chapter 38.
Not sure where the description of Job's benefit being merely incidental comes from. Also don't know who said there was no redemptive purpose in what happened either, but that is not my position.
Thinking about the story as a whole, I think it is a beautiful display by God to prove that His relationship with His people is not how satan sees it or what satan accuses it of being. I think it's also a beautiful story of God's sovereignty and salvation. Repeatedly Job thinks he is on his way to death, and yet in the end God shows up and spares his life. Job is redeemed, his whole life is redeemed, and he experiences the greatest revelation of God he has ever experienced.
I would agree with you again that everything that happened to Job was under God's control. That is very clear in chapters 1 & 2.
Going back to the original discrepancy though, your view is that Job was living in the sin of pride and self-reliance. My question still remains: why does God call Job blameless, one who fears God and shuns evil, if Job is full of pride? Isn't pride a sin? This point of view is different from what we read during the behind-the-scenes details being provided in chapters 1 & 2.
Here is where I think the problem ultimately lies with perspectives like this one. It seems to me that people take this position because it is essentially what Elihu says about Job. It is also akin to the position that Job's three friends take with Job, too, namely that Job must have done something to incur his suffering. Sounds familiar. So this perspective is in the text, but it comes from the mouths of those who are demonstrably adversarial to Job. In the end God praises Job for his words, and God rebukes the three friends for what they have said.
Not sure where the description of Job's benefit being merely incidental comes from. Also don't know who said there was no redemptive purpose in what happened either, but that is not my position.
Thinking about the story as a whole, I think it is a beautiful display by God to prove that His relationship with His people is not how satan sees it or what satan accuses it of being. I think it's also a beautiful story of God's sovereignty and salvation. Repeatedly Job thinks he is on his way to death, and yet in the end God shows up and spares his life. Job is redeemed, his whole life is redeemed, and he experiences the greatest revelation of God he has ever experienced.
I would agree with you again that everything that happened to Job was under God's control. That is very clear in chapters 1 & 2.
Going back to the original discrepancy though, your view is that Job was living in the sin of pride and self-reliance. My question still remains: why does God call Job blameless, one who fears God and shuns evil, if Job is full of pride? Isn't pride a sin? This point of view is different from what we read during the behind-the-scenes details being provided in chapters 1 & 2.
Here is where I think the problem ultimately lies with perspectives like this one. It seems to me that people take this position because it is essentially what Elihu says about Job. It is also akin to the position that Job's three friends take with Job, too, namely that Job must have done something to incur his suffering. Sounds familiar. So this perspective is in the text, but it comes from the mouths of those who are demonstrably adversarial to Job. In the end God praises Job for his words, and God rebukes the three friends for what they have said.
Job 19:25-27a
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Job, often cited as the oldest book of the Bible, attests to the resurrection and after life
looooooooooooooooonnngggg being part of our beliefs, which I have seen some people
trying to deny. Good old Job! He proves neither are recent additions, despite the Sadducees,
who did not believe in the resurrection. That is why they were sad, you see...
Could not resist adding that little joke at thee end LOL
looooooooooooooooonnngggg being part of our beliefs, which I have seen some people
trying to deny. Good old Job! He proves neither are recent additions, despite the Sadducees,
who did not believe in the resurrection. That is why they were sad, you see...
Could not resist adding that little joke at thee end LOL
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Job(Jesus) was stripped bare, so we can see his inner workings so to speak. Naked he came from his mothers womb and naked he shall return Job 1:21. Adam and Eve(mankind) after sinning needed to cover themselves to hide their/our shame, Jesus at the cross was stripped naked as part of the ridicule and suffering, yet He had no shame.
Now we have no need to be shamed before a righteous God for we are clothed in Christ that we may live for Him.
“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”. 1Pet 2:24
Now we have no need to be shamed before a righteous God for we are clothed in Christ that we may live for Him.
“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”. 1Pet 2:24
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This verse from 9:23 keeps coming up here. Question: have you reduced the profundity of Job's entire testimony to this one verse?
There are numerous parallels between Job and Jesus. No, Job is not Jesus, obviously. Job was a sinful man, but Jesus never sinned. Let's get that out of the way. Again, the reason God calls Job blameless is because whenever he did sin, God showed him, Job turned to God, and the sin was dealt with.
So Job is not literally Jesus, but he provides us with a type and shadow of Jesus. Job's ordeal is a foreshadowing of what Christ Jesus would suffer when He came to live here as a man. Here are a few examples:
1. Job did not do anything wrong to incur his suffering. He was innocent in that sense, just as Jesus was innocent.
2. Job was falsely accused by his friends that he had done something wrong. Jesus was also falsely accused of doing something wrong, then was brought before Pilate and eventually crucified.
3. In Job 13:24 Job cries out asking why God has hidden His face from him. Jesus cries out on the Cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"
4. Job talks about others striking him on the cheek and spitting in his face (16:10 & 30:10).
5. Job believes he is on his way to death during his suffering. Jesus is actually on His way to dying during His suffering.
6. Job is ultimately saved from his suffering and prays for his friends. Jesus rose from the dead and always lives to make intercession for the saints.
Those are just a few correlations between Job and Jesus.
There are numerous parallels between Job and Jesus. No, Job is not Jesus, obviously. Job was a sinful man, but Jesus never sinned. Let's get that out of the way. Again, the reason God calls Job blameless is because whenever he did sin, God showed him, Job turned to God, and the sin was dealt with.
So Job is not literally Jesus, but he provides us with a type and shadow of Jesus. Job's ordeal is a foreshadowing of what Christ Jesus would suffer when He came to live here as a man. Here are a few examples:
1. Job did not do anything wrong to incur his suffering. He was innocent in that sense, just as Jesus was innocent.
2. Job was falsely accused by his friends that he had done something wrong. Jesus was also falsely accused of doing something wrong, then was brought before Pilate and eventually crucified.
3. In Job 13:24 Job cries out asking why God has hidden His face from him. Jesus cries out on the Cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"
4. Job talks about others striking him on the cheek and spitting in his face (16:10 & 30:10).
5. Job believes he is on his way to death during his suffering. Jesus is actually on His way to dying during His suffering.
6. Job is ultimately saved from his suffering and prays for his friends. Jesus rose from the dead and always lives to make intercession for the saints.
Those are just a few correlations between Job and Jesus.
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Exactly, great point with God abandoning Jesus on the cross, the turmoil and anxiety Jesus must have felt we will never know.
I hate going to the dentist, when I do, or go to surgery or do a test for certain privileges like driving my anxiety levels go through the roof, but nothing compared to the Lords.
Jesus was in agony just thinking about the cross, and being forsaken by God.
Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
He even asked if it was possible, for another way!
Yet there was no other way He could redeem us than by being the substitutional sacrifice on that cross. Which He went through for us.
I for one will not complain about any hardships that I may suffer from now on,
I hate going to the dentist, when I do, or go to surgery or do a test for certain privileges like driving my anxiety levels go through the roof, but nothing compared to the Lords.
Jesus was in agony just thinking about the cross, and being forsaken by God.
Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
He even asked if it was possible, for another way!
Yet there was no other way He could redeem us than by being the substitutional sacrifice on that cross. Which He went through for us.
I for one will not complain about any hardships that I may suffer from now on,
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Job 19:7 Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but [there is] no judgment.
Job 16:17 Not for [any] injustice in mine hands: also my prayer [is] pure.
Job 10:3 [Is it] good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?
Job 3:1After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.
Job 3:19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.
Job 9:24The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Job 13:27Thou puttest my feet also in the stocks, and lookest narrowly unto all my paths; thou settest a print upon the heels of my feet.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Job 19:7 Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but [there is] no judgment.
Job 16:17 Not for [any] injustice in mine hands: also my prayer [is] pure.
Job 10:3 [Is it] good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?
Job 3:1After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.
Job 3:19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.
Job 9:24The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Job 13:27Thou puttest my feet also in the stocks, and lookest narrowly unto all my paths; thou settest a print upon the heels of my feet.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Hello Terry,
For me of the book grapples with the profound question of why the righteous suffer, challenging simplistic notions of divine justice. Job, introduced as "blameless and upright" (Job 1:1), faces immense suffering despite his faithfulness, prompting a debate with his friends who argue that his misfortunes must stem from hidden sin. They reflect a common belief found in Proverbs 3:11-12 and Psalm 37:21-22, which suggest that suffering serves as divine discipline. However, Job maintains his innocence, highlighting the paradox that the wicked often prosper while the righteous endure hardship, a sentiment echoed in Psalm 73:3-5 and Ecclesiastes 8:14.
God’s response to Job emphasizes divine sovereignty rather than providing direct answers to human suffering. In Job 38-41, God questions Job about the mysteries of creation, reinforcing that His wisdom and ways are beyond human understanding, as noted in Isaiah 55:8-9. Ultimately, Job’s journey leads him to a deeper faith, culminating in repentance for questioning God’s wisdom (Job 42:1-6). This narrative shows that faith is not about having all the answers but trusting in God's character and sovereignty, as articulated in Hebrews 11:1 and James 1:2-4. The Book of Job thus invites us to confront the complexities of suffering while maintaining confidence in God's goodness and overarching plan.
Blessings
For me of the book grapples with the profound question of why the righteous suffer, challenging simplistic notions of divine justice. Job, introduced as "blameless and upright" (Job 1:1), faces immense suffering despite his faithfulness, prompting a debate with his friends who argue that his misfortunes must stem from hidden sin. They reflect a common belief found in Proverbs 3:11-12 and Psalm 37:21-22, which suggest that suffering serves as divine discipline. However, Job maintains his innocence, highlighting the paradox that the wicked often prosper while the righteous endure hardship, a sentiment echoed in Psalm 73:3-5 and Ecclesiastes 8:14.
God’s response to Job emphasizes divine sovereignty rather than providing direct answers to human suffering. In Job 38-41, God questions Job about the mysteries of creation, reinforcing that His wisdom and ways are beyond human understanding, as noted in Isaiah 55:8-9. Ultimately, Job’s journey leads him to a deeper faith, culminating in repentance for questioning God’s wisdom (Job 42:1-6). This narrative shows that faith is not about having all the answers but trusting in God's character and sovereignty, as articulated in Hebrews 11:1 and James 1:2-4. The Book of Job thus invites us to confront the complexities of suffering while maintaining confidence in God's goodness and overarching plan.
Blessings
Vassal greetings,
You have stated the narrative of a consensus on the book of Job, but the book goes much deeper.
If you must choose who was right, Job or God, God wins every time.
I know of no other book in the bible that is full of lies, how is it that we can say that about the book of Job, and be right?
You have stated the narrative of a consensus on the book of Job, but the book goes much deeper.
If you must choose who was right, Job or God, God wins every time.
I know of no other book in the bible that is full of lies, how is it that we can say that about the book of Job, and be right?
Thank you for sharing these verses. However, have you noticed that the things that Job says are actually not incorrect? As hard as it may be to read, everything he is saying is true. Job was broken with a tempest, his wounds were multiplied *without cause*, he does cry out and is not heard, and his prayers are pure, etc, etc. These are the things that have actually happened to him. He is speaking the truth, and supports what God statement that Job has spoken rightly of Him.
Job 10:3 is a question (not an accusation) to God. It was a question, by the way, similar to the ones asked by various prophets in the OT.
Job 3:1 Job cursed his day (not God). However, it seems to me that Job later wishes he had not spoken about himself in this way. This is what I believe he is referring to in the first part of 40:5.
As for the view that Job is *striving* with God, the reader is told from the beginning that Job was in right standing with God (not living in some sin). Job was not striving with God because Job was trying to justify his own sin (as some believe) but because Job knew he had not done anything to directly warrant these tragedies.
Again, look at what Job believes about his situation as he states in chapter 9:
2I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
3If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
4He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
14How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
15Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
This is Job's posture toward God. He knows his place before God. Nowhere does he say that he is more righteous than God. That, however, is what Elihu says to Job.
The biggest problem I find is when someone interprets the *entire* book of Job through the lens of Elihu. It's from Elihu where readers get this idea that Job has said he is more righteous than God. Job never says this, and God never accuses Job of this either. It's only from Elihu. There is a lot to say about that character, but suffice it to say on this point, Elihu was wrong in this claim about Job. What Elihu *claims* is simply not true, and I would advise against believing him.
Job 10:3 is a question (not an accusation) to God. It was a question, by the way, similar to the ones asked by various prophets in the OT.
Job 3:1 Job cursed his day (not God). However, it seems to me that Job later wishes he had not spoken about himself in this way. This is what I believe he is referring to in the first part of 40:5.
As for the view that Job is *striving* with God, the reader is told from the beginning that Job was in right standing with God (not living in some sin). Job was not striving with God because Job was trying to justify his own sin (as some believe) but because Job knew he had not done anything to directly warrant these tragedies.
Again, look at what Job believes about his situation as he states in chapter 9:
2I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
3If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
4He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
14How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
15Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
This is Job's posture toward God. He knows his place before God. Nowhere does he say that he is more righteous than God. That, however, is what Elihu says to Job.
The biggest problem I find is when someone interprets the *entire* book of Job through the lens of Elihu. It's from Elihu where readers get this idea that Job has said he is more righteous than God. Job never says this, and God never accuses Job of this either. It's only from Elihu. There is a lot to say about that character, but suffice it to say on this point, Elihu was wrong in this claim about Job. What Elihu *claims* is simply not true, and I would advise against believing him.
So because Elihu may be lying - and is allowed 6 chapters in this story - that would mean we can't trust the rest of the bible? That does not make any sense at all. How did you come up with that logic?
God does not say the three friends "lied" as if they were trying to deceive Job somehow. The problem with the three friends is that they could not accept that Job could be innocent and yet incur all this suffering. They believed Job MUST have done something wrong, and so their "counsel" to Job was amiss. They applied generally good principles to a situation where they did not apply. Their counsel was out of touch with what was really happening with Job.
Love for Elihu and hate for Job is what seems to drive the interpretation of this book for some. There are many characters in the bible whose words were recorded who did not speak for God (regardless of how many words they spoke). Do you read the bible as if every character speaks exactly what is true every time in every single word? What about when satan speaks? What about when satan even quoted Scripture to Jesus when He was tempted in the desert? How do you reconcile that with your view?
God does not say the three friends "lied" as if they were trying to deceive Job somehow. The problem with the three friends is that they could not accept that Job could be innocent and yet incur all this suffering. They believed Job MUST have done something wrong, and so their "counsel" to Job was amiss. They applied generally good principles to a situation where they did not apply. Their counsel was out of touch with what was really happening with Job.
Love for Elihu and hate for Job is what seems to drive the interpretation of this book for some. There are many characters in the bible whose words were recorded who did not speak for God (regardless of how many words they spoke). Do you read the bible as if every character speaks exactly what is true every time in every single word? What about when satan speaks? What about when satan even quoted Scripture to Jesus when He was tempted in the desert? How do you reconcile that with your view?