The book of Job, my favorite book.

[tttallison]

I think you missed understanding that post-New Testament Israel includes Edom & Gentiles per the following examples:

There is no disagreement that Christ died for the whole world, nor is God a respecter of persons. The book is written to, of, and by the Jews.

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Rom 9:3-4 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Rom 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

[GWH]

There is no disagreement that Christ died for the whole world, nor is God a respecter of persons. The book is written to, of, and by the Jews.

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Rom 9:3-4 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Rom 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

If the "book" refers to the New Testament, what matters is not whether it was written by physical Jews but by spiritual Jews. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Sacrificial Covenant (as indicated by MT, but He reformed, updated and superseded it with the New Gospel for all, which verses teaching that truth I posted you omitted! Again they included MT 7:21, MT 8:11, MT 10:32, MT 13:14-15, MT 21:43, MT 28:18-19a, JN 6:40 and JN 10:16: I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Similarly you omitted Paul's statements in Romans, which show that he was lamenting the truth that anti-Christian Jews are not saved. Again, these include:

RM 2:1-11, 23-29: God will give to each person according to what he has done… There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile, but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
RM 2:23-29: You (Jews) who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written, “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”… A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart.
RM 3:1-9: What advantage then is there in being a Jew?… First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God… What shall we conclude then? Are we (Jews) any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
RM 3:20-30: Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his (God’s) sight by observing the law; rather through the law we become conscious of sin… Where then is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

 

[tttallison]

If the "book" refers to the New Testament, what matters is not whether it was written by physical Jews but by spiritual Jews. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Sacrificial Covenant (as indicated by MT, but He reformed, updated and superseded it with the New Gospel for all, which verses teaching that truth I posted you omitted! MT 28:18-19a, /QUOTE]

I am sorry I offended you by omitting your verses.

I know and love these verses. But from my perspective they are not relevant to our discussion. In some cases our interpretation is different.

How would you say the Apostles understood Matthew 28:19?

 

[tttallison]

Would you have liked this man if you lived in his town? Yes, God said Job was blameless and upright, but that was only until iniquity was found in him.

Psa 36:2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.

Job 29:7-11 When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street! The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up. The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth. The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth. When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:

Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand.

 

[GWH]

There is no disagreement that Christ died for the whole world, nor is God a respecter of persons. The book is written to, of, and by the Jews.

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Rom 9:3-4 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Rom 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

If the "book" refers to the New Testament, what matters is not whether it was written by physical Jews but by spiritual Jews. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Sacrificial Covenant (as indicated by MT 10:5-6 & 15:24), but He reformed, updated and superseded it with the New Gospel for all .
For some reason I could not reply to the post that contained this:

I am sorry I offended you by omitting your verses.

I know and love these verses. But from my perspective they are not relevant to our discussion. In some cases our interpretation is different.

How would you say the Apostles understood Matthew 28:19?

Apology accepted although the offense was against part of the truth that is necessary to have in order to have the whole truth or best interpretation. I cannot tell from your reply that you understand the truth/interpretation I am trying to convey as being most relevant, which is that per the New Testament "Israel" and the Gentiles are equally included in the same covenant or requirement for salvation--which is how I think the Apostles understood MT 28:19-20, at least after being taught by the apostle Paul.

 

[tttallison]

If the "book" refers to the New Testament, what matters is not whether it was written by physical Jews but by spiritual Jews. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Sacrificial Covenant (as indicated by MT 10:5-6 & 15:24), but He reformed, updated and superseded it with the New Gospel for all .

Apology accepted although the offense was against part of the truth that is necessary to have in order to have the whole truth or best interpretation. I cannot tell from your reply that you understand the truth/interpretation I am trying to convey as being most relevant, which is that per the New Testament "Israel" and the Gentiles are equally included in the same covenant or requirement for salvation--which is how I think the Apostles understood MT 28:19-20, at least after being taught by the apostle Paul.

The age of the law is over and we now are in the age of the gentiles. The Jewish nation has been set aside.

Rom 11:25-29 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The new covenant with the house of Israel (Northern Kingdom) and the house of Jacob (Southern Kingdom). (Hebrews 8:8) Northern Kingdom has not existed since 720 BC.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:10:13 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The old Covenant

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The New Covenant is future, for a future age.

If we were in the New Covenant there would be no need of teachers and preachers. The New Covenant was to the Jews, both the Northern and Southern Kingdom.

 

[Mem]

The age of the law is over and we now are in the age of the gentiles. The Jewish nation has been set aside.

Rom 11:25-29 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The new covenant with the house of Israel (Northern Kingdom) and the house of Jacob (Southern Kingdom). (Hebrews 8:8) Northern Kingdom has not existed since 720 BC.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:10:13 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The old Covenant

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The New Covenant is future, for a future age.

If we were in the New Covenant there would be no need of teachers and preachers. The New Covenant was to the Jews, both the Northern and Southern Kingdom.

I think it is worthy of note that Israel is partially blinded, as opposed to the world's complete blindness. Many take this to mean that some (a part) of them believe and others do not see, but there is a possibility this is speaking in the collective term that, in general, they only recognize the Old Testament, while the general world rejects completely along with the NT.

 

[tttallison]

I think it is worthy of note that Israel is partially blinded, as opposed to the world's complete blindness. Many take this to mean that some (a part) of them believe and others do not see, but there is a possibility this is speaking in the collective term that, in general, they only recognize the Old Testament, while the general world rejects completely along with the NT.

Actually, there was a study done that said 60% of Jews did not believe there was a God. That is far above the rest of the world.

 

[tttallison]

Got off target with Job.

The book of Job is about righteousness. God's righteousness versus man's righteousness. It should be apparent to everyone that Job had a zeal for God. It is also apparent that Job lacked knowledge. God said Job lacked knowledge.

When we compare what God said about Israel it is apparent that it also equates to Job.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[Mem]

Actually, there was a study done that said 60% of Jews did not believe there was a God. That is far above the rest of the world.

What is your perspective of Romans 11:26, "...The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob."?

 

[christophernyc]

Got off target with Job.

The book of Job is about righteousness. God's righteousness versus man's righteousness. It should be apparent to everyone that Job had a zeal for God. It is also apparent that Job lacked knowledge. God said Job lacked knowledge.

When we compare what God said about Israel it is apparent that it also equates to Job.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Circling back to this discussion, so your overall takeaway is a kind of retribution theology, right? Job is ultimately being punished by this ordeal because of his personal sin, you believe. This is essentially the same position as Job's 3 friends, too, not in the particulars, but in the overall essence of why Job is suffering. This is your position?

 

[christophernyc]

Would you have liked this man if you lived in his town? Yes, God said Job was blameless and upright, but that was only until iniquity was found in him.

Psa 36:2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.

Job 29:7-11 When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street! The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up. The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth. The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth. When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:

Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand.

I don't read this as Job flattering himself. Job spends much of his ordeal trying to figure out what is happening to him. He is earnestly trying to understand. (Again, he is the *only* person in this story who actually prays to God.) What he is recounting in ch. 29 is how his life was and comparing it to how it is in this ordeal.

It's funny how none of this criticism gets applied to Elihu, the most arrogant one of them all.

 

[GWH]

The age of the law is over and we now are in the age of the gentiles. The Jewish nation has been set aside.

Rom 11:25-29 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The new covenant with the house of Israel (Northern Kingdom) and the house of Jacob (Southern Kingdom). (Hebrews 8:8) Northern Kingdom has not existed since 720 BC.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:10:13 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The old Covenant

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The New Covenant is future, for a future age.

If we were in the New Covenant there would be no need of teachers and preachers. The New Covenant was to the Jews, both the Northern and Southern Kingdom.

There is a need for Paul to teach you that the NC is for BOTH Jews AND Gentiles per RM 10:4-13, EPH 3:11-3:6 and GL 3:28.

 

[homwardbound]

Got off target with Job.

The book of Job is about righteousness. God's righteousness versus man's righteousness. It should be apparent to everyone that Job had a zeal for God. It is also apparent that Job lacked knowledge. God said Job lacked knowledge.

When we compare what God said about Israel it is apparent that it also equates to Job.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

I think this lack of, when God saw Job start some haughtinesses, over those worldly counselors, that Job kept saying to them, these troubles were not happening to him over sin. God intervened around chapter 34, do you make?
‘not that Job never sinned. Re read 1st chapter, evil, satan said to God, that Job would curse God< if the hedge God had around Job were removed
we, I see, Job never denied God, me loving the last chapter

 

[tttallison]

Circling back to this discussion, so your overall takeaway is a kind of retribution theology, right? Job is ultimately being punished by this ordeal because of his personal sin, you believe. This is essentially the same position as Job's 3 friends, too, not in the particulars, but in the overall essence of why Job is suffering. This is your position?

It is not a retribution theology, it is a salvation theology. Job was the apple of God's eye, the same as Israel was.

Deu 32:10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Don't you find Deuteronomy 32:10 similar to Job 1:1

If we travel to Romans 10:1-3 we find another similarity.

Rom 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

No one can deny that Job had a zeal for God, but at the same time he was exalting his own righteousness above God's righteousness.

Job 40:8 Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?
Job 35:2 Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's?
Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

 

[tttallison]

I don't read this as Job flattering himself. Job spends much of his ordeal trying to figure out what is happening to him. He is earnestly trying to understand. (Again, he is the *only* person in this story who actually prays to God.) What he is recounting in ch. 29 is how his life was and comparing it to how it is in this ordeal.

Job in chapter 29 is rather braggadocious even to comparing himself to a king in the last verse. God calls Job his servant, but Job equates himself to a king. God says there are three things that disquiet the earth, and the first thing that is mentioned is a servant when he reigneth. (Pro 30:21)

It's funny how none of this criticism gets applied to Elihu, the most arrogant one of them all.

Job twice asked for a judge who was made of clay.

Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost.

God heeded Job's request and sent him Elihu.

Elihu said,

Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

Job twice requests that God do two things.

Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:
Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid.

The two requests of Job answered by Elihu.

Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

 

[homwardbound]

es.
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker

I think for me from the view I have gotten out of the entire book of Job is
Job never once denied God, ever. Those counselors were worldly ones, touting their righteousness, accusing Job that I see Job got very tired of. Then God stepped in to keep Job from being Haughty as God did that with Paul also 2 Cor 12:1-10 and I am glorying in my iniquities now also thanks
See, I ended God anyone else? thank you

 

[homwardbound]

Job in chapter 29 is rather braggadocious even to comparing himself to a king in the last verse. God calls Job his servant, but Job equates himself to a king. God says there are three things that disquiet the earth, and the first thing that is mentioned is a servant when he reigneth. (Pro 30:21)




Job twice asked for a judge who was made of clay.

Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost.

God heeded Job's request and sent him Elihu.

Elihu said,

Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

Job twice requests that God do two things.

Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:
Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid.

The two requests of Job answered by Elihu.

Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

Sorry, I am seeing you as a worldly counselor, I could be wrong, I trust Father all in all, to teach and train us each personally. The book of Job starts out, Job believes God and God is pleased in Job's belief. Then it goes on into troubles, that evil asks for to get given Job, if did then Job would deny God. Yet Job, never once denied God ever. Yes confusion tried to set in and even pride
Job saw through it all, thanks to Father, Daddy, Pa Pa to me in that last chapter, reading the entire book of Job, does not say what you are saying about Job, at lease to me and thanks for your view.
Love to you

 

[tttallison]

Sorry, I am seeing you as a worldly counselor, I could be wrong, I trust Father all in all, to teach and train us each personally. The book of Job starts out, Job believes God and God is pleased in Job's belief. Then it goes on into troubles, that evil asks for to get given Job, if did then Job would deny God. Yet Job, never once denied God ever. Yes confusion tried to set in and even pride
Job saw through it all, thanks to Father, Daddy, Pa Pa to me in that last chapter, reading the entire book of Job, does not say what you are saying about Job, at lease to me and thanks for your view.
Love to you

I would ask you two questions.

1. Do Orthodox Jews deny God?

2. Are Orthodox Jews saved? And if so, how?

 

[tttallison]

There is a need for Paul to teach you that the NC is for BOTH Jews AND Gentiles per RM 10:4-13, EPH 3:11-3:6 and GL 3:28.

You are absolutely correct that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. But I do not see where these Jews are in Christ.

The first time the New Covenant is mentioned is in Jeremiah 31:31. There is no mention of Gentiles in this passage. Only the house of Judah and the house of Israel are mentioned. The Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom. This new covenant states that God will put, in Israel, his law in the inward parts, and write it in the hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This same passage is repeated in Hebrews 8:10-11.

To fully understand that this particular covenant pertains to Israel and not the Gentiles we read Romans 11:25-28.

Rom 11:25-28 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

When it says, "For this is my covenant unto them" in Romans 11:27 the "them" is referring to the blinded, unsaved Israel. This is referring to a future time after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. At least that is what it says here in Romans 11.