THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb

[JamesFlash]

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

i suppose i ought to have asked if you were referring to the change of these vile bodies at coming of the Lord to judge the living and the dead...or if you are referring to the laughable fantasy "pretribulation" rapture.

typically people using the word rapture are suggesting 3 comings; some people disappearing and a nightmare befalls the poor jews and other nonsense.

i certainly don't scoff at the day of Judgment. do you?

 

[JamesFlash]

We are talking about Daniel's 70th week, an Israelite prophecy -- nothing to do with the Church.

so, the remnant faithful israelites were not the church?

He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.

(an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers. - ekklésia)

daniel's 70th week came and went praise God, for in that week came our Salvation.
if it hasn't come yet, i suppose you are not saved, nor myself. or daniel or anyone.

So far as I know, the eschatological tribulation is called "The Great Tribulation," and in the Olivet Discourse when "trib" is said, it means the Great Trib.

the great tribulation was the persecution under nero (and others) and the desolation of 70ad.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be raptured [caught up] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

and where is the part about a wedding in the air and people suffering on earth for 7 years and tribulation and all the rest?
oh...it's not in that passage - is it.

Your slap in the face to martyrs is absurd.

If you have the theory that the Church must go through Daniel's 70th week, even the Great Tribulation of Mat 24, and the seals, trumpets, & vials, of Revelation; you have an impossible theory. For most of the Church generations have died long ago without going through that Great Tribulation. And God is not going to resurrect them to put them through the Trib. About 2000 years of Christians in the Church cannot go through the trib, for they are already dead!

For Rapture in the gospels, see John 14, where the return of Christ is there & he takes the believers to go & be with Him where He is.

rambling; nonsensical; impossible; ..because, there's no pretribulation rapture. just think about it rationally for 10 minutes.

Christ is omniscient. If you think that the above means that Christ shared his omniscience with the disciples on earth, that is absurd.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you.

"I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father." His disciples said, "Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech."Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God."

Christ's return for the disciples which involves a Rapture (1 Thes 4) was taught by Him in John 14.

It isn't the 2000 years that makes Christ's return immanent. It is that He has ever been the judge at the doors, liable to return at any time; indefinite temporal nearness, threatening to happen at any uncertain time -- but we do not know when.

Imminence means that so far as believers know, He could come at any time. From what Christ told Peter in a riddle, Peter could not know that Peter would die before the rapture.

I don't see why those who heard the Olivet Discourse would know that the Temple would be destroyed after the Rapture.

because he told them specifically to watch for it, and by that sign they would know to flee. which they did.

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city

The time of the return is not uncertain to God; He knows exactly when. But He wishes us to be always ready for Christ's return at any time. Even the 2nd coming to earth is warned as at a time you think not..

true.

From what you say, to avoid making huge mistakes you indeed understand hermeneutics.

true.

 

[VCO]

what is a Millennial Kingdom?
what is it for?

Revelation 20:4-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.

 

[VCO]

I already showed you several verses and you rejected them because they do not fit what you want to believe. Enjoy your life before Antichrist comes on the scene, because you will not like it when the Great Tribulation starts. We are finished. If the rest of my born again brethren are reading this, maybe it is time we all ignore this one.

Wow, when you put someone on your ignore list,

it really does block their posts from showing up.

 

[JamesFlash]

Revelation 20:4-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.

so, the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed.
that means there are only saved people who will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
is it the saved people who rebel and the another great battle occurs?
that's some great tribulation and a great falling away - by saved people, who WERE reigning with Christ.
no, can't be correct.

 

[JamesFlash]

I already showed you several verses and you rejected them because they do not fit what you want to believe. Enjoy your life before Antichrist comes on the scene, because you will not like it when the Great Tribulation starts. We are finished. If the rest of my born again brethren are reading this, maybe it is time we all ignore this one.

where does it say Antichrist comes on the scene?

 

[VCO]

so, the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed.
that means there are only saved people who will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
is it the saved people who rebel and the another great battle occurs?
that's some great tribulation and a great falling away - by saved people, who WERE reigning with Christ.
no, can't be correct.

Here is my understanding:

The Great Falling Away is already well underway. Haven't you noticed how many there are these days who question if the Bible really is the Word of GOD? And how many who claim to be Christians, are focused on on self, instead of Christ and others? And how many are tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine? And how many claiming to be Christians believe what men of Science teach, instead of what GOD says about Creation?

The Dead in CHRIST, (that includes O.T. Saints as well as Church-age Saints), will get their resurrected glorified immortal bodies just before the Antichrist signs the Seven Year Peace Treaty with Israel and their Enemies. The Christians alive at that moment in time also get their glorified immortal bodies on the way up in the twinkling of an eye (that is such a minute part of one second that it cannot be measured). The Tribulation Saints get their glorified immortal bodies at the very beginning of Christ's 1000 Year Reign from the Throne of David. And you are right THE REST refers to unbelievers who are resurrected to face the Judgement of Christ after the end His 1000 year reign, just after or maybe just before the final rebellion that Satan organizes after he is loosed from the Pit. After Judgment Day, comes the ETERNAL STATE for Believers only, which is the New Earth and Atmosphere HE creates, and then finally lowers the New Jerusalem in Heaven, down upon that NEW EARTH.

SO YES that leaves the big question, who joins Satan's Rebellion at the END of Christ's 1000 Year Reign on this present EARTH?

There is a group of Mortal humans who were promised to go into the 1000 Year Kingdom of Jesus Christ, and that is the 144,000 of ISRAEL who where given an everlasting covenant to the right of ownership of the land of Canaan, BY GOD. AND possibly, there are other survivors of the TRIBULATION who had NOT received the Mark of the Beast, but there is very little information about that possibility, so in my opinion that possibility is a coin toss; and we will find out when we get there. THOSE MORTALS entering His 1000 Year Kingdom most certainly WILL BE HAVING LOTS OF CHILDREN, repopulating the Earth. While it does not clearly say, I think the 1000 Year Kingdom's primary purpose is to give mankind a chance to live in a Garden of Eden like environment like GOD INTENDED prior to the Sin of Adam and Eve. With the multitude of new children, being born in that perfect environment, it is EXTREMELY LIKELY that they will take everything for granted that CHRIST has provided for them. So they will NEED TO BE TAUGHT TO APPRECIATE WHAT CHRIST HAS PROVIDED.

NOW that brings us to "WHAT IS OUR PURPOSE FOR BEING THERE?" It says we will reign as Priests with HIM for that 1000 years. One of the jobs of a Jewish Priest was to TEACH the children and the People. It says in that glorified body we will "KNOW AS WE ARE KNOWN". I believe that perfect memory is for a PURPOSE, and that is so that we can do our best to TEACH those Mortals to appreciate everything CHRIST HAS DONE FOR THEM, and to RECEIVE HIM AS LORD, which means MASTER.

Do I believe our NEW DWELLING PLACE remains in Heaven for that 1000 Years? Yes, I do! How are we going to get back and forth from Heaven to Earth, so that we CAN TEACH THEM? I believe that is exactly the purpose of Jacob's Ladder dream.
GOD was showing us that in a glorified body, HE DID PROVIDE A WAY TO GET BACK AND FORTH. It still baffles me that despite our Best Efforts to TEACH, and with CHRIST literally on the THRONE OF DAVID in Jerusalem, why do so many still decide to join Satan's Rebellion. I guess it proves that Mortal Human nature, really does have a Sin nature inherited from Adam.

WHY DOES GOD GIVE US THAT FREEDOM TO CHOOSE WHOM WE WILL SERVE? It says that GOD MUST BE GLORIFIED, and there is NO GLORY in turning us into biological robots. There is ONLY GLORY in our Choosing to BELIEVE and RECEIVE HIM AS MASTER (LORD). Isn't that describing works righteousness? NO WAY! In Rom. 5:5, He tells us that when the Holy Spirit came into our hearts, HE poured GOD's LOVE into our hearts. Therefore our ability to Choose, our ability to Repent, our ability to Believe, our ability to Obey, and our ability to Serve, all spawns out that free gift of GOD's LOVE that the Holy Spirit Poured into our hearts.

DO YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THESE THINGS AS I DO? NO, God gave you freedom of choice to choose what you Believe, but it really is what I am extremely comfortable believing, and absolutely convinced that it is the HOLY SPIRIT Who gave me that Understanding.

Let me ask you one question: Why is it that those who believe as I do, are so full of JOY, while those who do not believe as I do, are so lacking in that JOY that surpasses all understanding?


Thank you for asking what I believe.

 

[watcher2013]

WHOSE LIE DID YOU HAVE TO SWALLOW, TO COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT CANNOT DO HIS JOB ON EARTH WHILE HE IS PRESENT IN HEAVEN?

The Holy Spirit took up residence on Earth in the Hearts of Born Again Believers starting the Day of Pentecost.

HOW ON EARTH DO YOU THINK ANYONE GOT SAVED PRIOR TO THAT?

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

ALL would include the Old Testament Saints and we both BELIEVE GOD, especially:

Isaiah 43:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

They believed the YAHWEH is the only Savior and that MESSIAH would come!

We believe that YAHWEH is the only Savior and that MESSIAH did come in the body of Jesus!

IT IS THE SAME FAITH, the FAITH OF ABRAHAM!


Exodus 35:21 (ESV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And they came, everyone whose heart stirred him, and everyone whose spirit moved him, and brought the LORD’s contribution to be used for the tent of meeting, and for all its service, and for the holy garments.

Psalm 34:18 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] The LORD is near the brokenhearted; He saves those crushed in spirit.

Psalm 51:10-11 (ASV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Create in me a clean heart, O God; And renew a right spirit within me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Cast me not away from thy presence; And take not thy holy Spirit from me.

The Holy Spirit can do HIS JOB extremely well without taking up residence HERE on Earth. Starting the Day of Pentecost, HE did so that we would not be Comfortless. THAT COMFORT is knowing HE RESIDES IN US, but HE saved Old Testament Saints without that added COMFORT that Christ Promised us. ACTUALLY there is an additional reason for Jesus Christ sending the Holy Spirit to reside in us. The Jewish Bridegroom once the Bride accepted HIS proposal, had to give the Bride a very precious Gift. The Holy Spirit is our Betrothal Gift.

ACTUALLY IT WAS JUST A RESPONSE TO YOUR STORY.
YOUR STORY IS FULL OF LIES... YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO COVER IT WITH MORE LIES.

To give you an example again:
You said the HS must be taken away for the anti christ to reveal himself.

From the above response: you argued that the HS can do his Job on earth whether he resides in heaven.

In other words the HS can still withhold the revelation of the antichrist even if the HS is in heaven.

So your story was proven a lie by your own argument.

 

[VCO]

ACTUALLY IT WAS JUST A RESPONSE TO YOUR STORY.
YOUR STORY IS FULL OF LIES... YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO COVER IT WITH MORE LIES.

To give you an example again:
You said the HS must be taken away for the anti christ to reveal himself.

From the above response: you argued that the HS can do his Job on earth whether he resides in heaven.

In other words the HS can still withhold the revelation of the antichrist even if the HS is in heaven.

So your story was proven a lie by your own argument.

I told you the Truth, and God gave you the choice to Believe or reject it.

It is not what the Holy Spirit can do, it is WHAT AND WHEN GOD the HOLY SPIRIT allows Satan to do what he wants. AND GOD SAYS NOT UNTIL HE THE HOLY SPIRIT, is taken out of the way.

 

[VCO]

where does it say Antichrist comes on the scene?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

There is a EVIL WORLD DICTATOR that prophesied will come in the future sometime, who is actually possessed by Satan, and therefore his characteristics are the OPPOSITE of Christ. He is called by many names in the Bible, and I will show you a few verses. Apparently Satan's ultimate goal is to rule all of mankind as if he were God. I believe he has tried it several times in the past, through other Evil Dictators, but failed each time. But when GOD the Holy Spirit, decides it is time to end it all, then and only then will the Holy Spirit get out of the way so that he can finally become the world Dictator he as always wanted to be. Somehow, I think Satan really thinks if He gets enough of GOD's Creation, Mankind on his side, he really thinks he can stop Christ from returning to take possession of the World.

1 John 2:18 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard, “Antichrist is coming,” even now many antichrists have come. We know from this that it is the last hour.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation 19:9-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Daniel 9:26-27 (NKJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then he shall confirm a covenant with many {Israel and her enemies} for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."


In Daniel Chapter 2, King Nebuchadnezzar has a Dream that terrifies him, and only Daniel can explain it. He saw the huge statue that actually was a picture prophecy of the WORLD's four Major Empires only there are 5 being described in that picture prophecy. The REASON the fifth one is NOT called a Fifth Empire, is it is actually a revival of the 4th Empire. From head to toe, it is a picture of the major Empires that ruled over mankind. The Babylonian Empire was known for their superb Gold Smiths, thus the Head is made of gold. They were followed by the Medo-Persian Empire famous for their Silver Smiths, thus the breast was made of Silver. They were followed by Alexander the Great, famous for weapons made out of brass, thus the waste was made of Brass. They were followed by the Roman Empire famous for swords and shields made out of iron, thus the legs were made out of iron. THEN we get to the feet with ten toes made out of Iron mixed with clay, which is a revival of the Roman Empire, BUT ten toes mixed with clay represent a Multi-Nation Confederacy where many of those nations are not totally willing to submit to a single ruler, therefore they are weaker than the original Roman Empire. THAT multi-nation Conferacy that is weak now, will one day be taken over by a Dictator. IT IS THAT DICTATOR that Satan Possesses and tries to solidify under his total RULE. Yes I believe the European Union it that Multi-Nation Confederacy, that will one day be taken over by the Antichrist.

 

[PlainWord]

The HOLY SPIRIT speaks to my spiritual mind in my heart, giving me understanding. If you are not born again, you will think this is pure foolishness.

I am born again and the HS tells me something completely different. Houston we could have a problem. The HS does not lie.

That Seven year Peace Treaty that Antichrist signs with Israel, WILL be Seven Years to the Day, AND it will be ALL OVER CNN, thus we know what day it ENDS blowing the Post Trib theory, And we know what day will be three and a half years into it, blowing the Mid-Trib Theory.

Where do you read that Christ come back the day after the 7 years is up? That isn't what we are told.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...

The Holy Spirit in us HOLD Antichrist back from coming to full power, to even have the Authority to sign such a Peace Treaty, and it says the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way,

The HS is NOT identified as the one "holding back." You jump to a lot of conclusions. If you are wrong about just one conclusion, your entire theory collapses. You use this assumption to reverse the order Paul gives in the same passage. The Lord returns and we are gathered AFTER the Man of Sin is revealed. But because you assume the HS is doing the restraining and that the HS leaves with the church to heaven (none of which is stated) then you totally reverse what is clearly stated i.e., that the Lord comes and gathers AFTER the Man of Sin appears.

Is there any part of you that feels uncomfortable doing this or is scripture something you are allowed to alter using speculation and assumptions?

Let me give you another possibility about who is doing the restraining.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels..

If Michael is doing the restraining then your theory has a big problem, does it not?

Let me ask you something dear Brother. If you see the head of a major Islamic state (Turkey perhaps) signing a Peace Treaty with Israel and other Arab states would you then feel like you were wrong about the timing of the Rapture, OR would you assume this isn't the right Peace Treaty because you are still here?

 

[PlainWord]

And what do you think John would have called New York City when he saw a giant statue of the famous Babylonian Goddess Ishtar standing in the Harbor?

There is no doubt that Satanic symbols are in the USA just as they are all over the world. I agree that Lady Liberty (A gift of the French) sure could make one think that NYC could be Babylon the Great given also her proximity to the water and that many peoples from many nations are there. However, once you watch the below video, it will dispel any notion of who Babylon is and isn't. Watch this and even you will agree who or what Babylon is as this is not a Rapture topic:

Babylon the Great & The Turkish Antichrist - Armageddon News - YouTube

For we are told Babylon, the Mother of all Harlots is also a religious city and can be found in the wilderness (desert). We are also told that those who see it's destruction mourn by throwing dust on their heads. NYC is NOT a religious city and it certainly can not be found in the wilderness. Throwing dust on your head is not a western tradition.

Only one religious city can be found in the desert, near a sea (the largest shipping channel in the world) and in a country where mourning includes throwing dust on your head and that city is MECCA.

 

[PlainWord]

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

At the time the scoffers are scoffing had Jesus come? Was there a rapture before the scoffing was going on? If there was a Rapture prior to the Tribulation why would anyone be scoffing? The Rapture (as you teach it) includes hundreds of millions being caught up instantly without clothes. Millions of naked people floating up into the sky might make the evening news, don't you think? Trains, planes, cars, buses etc being driven by Christians will crash and burn all over the planet. This event as taught will be noticed by everyone so why would anyone scoff and ask, "Where is the promise of His coming" if they saw His coming??????????????????????????????????????????????

The scoffers are clearly unbelievers and they are scoffing at those who will say that Christ is coming, because even the Pre-Tribber will recognize they are in the Tribulation eventually but they will cling to their theory to the end even as they are being slaughtered.

There will be those of us who speak the truth about the timing of the Lord's return but unfortunately Pre-Trib Rapturists will have so discredited the faith with your movies about being Left Behind that nobody will believe in Christ anymore until He actually comes.

 

[prove-all]

[SUP]7 [/SUP] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

anti christ is at work now, someone is restraining it,

nowhere does it say the Holy spirit is the he restraining

 

[PlainWord]

Atwood,

We are talking about Daniel's 70th week, an Israelite prophecy -- nothing to do with the Church. So far as I know, the eschatological tribulation is called "The Great Tribulation," and in the Olivet Discourse when "trib" is said, it means the Great Trib.

There are those who think all the bad stuff is reserved for Israel during the Tribulation. Why, because some have become haughty as Paul warns they will in Romans 11. It should be clear that ISIS will kill Christians whenever and wherever they can. They may not make it to the USA in big numbers but they have been killing Christians in droves where they are and where they will go. Israel will definitely get the brunt of it given their proximity to the action but the Church is not exempt from being attacked by Satan. We are seeing it already as Churches are being persecuted in this country for their stand against gays, abortions, etc.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be raptured [caught up] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Why did you leave out the beginning of this passage??

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Oops, this passage identifies the one doing the bringing as GOD. Thus, everywhere the word, LORD is used Paul is talking about GOD and not Christ, in this context.

Notice also that NO TIMING is given relative to the Tribulation. Thus this event certainly could happen at the very end after a millennial reign even. Read this passage again with the correct member of the Trinity inserted God for Lord. When Paul uses the word Lord to mean Jesus, he always identifies Jesus with the word Lord unless it is clear from the text that he is discussing Christ. When Paul just uses the word Lord without invoking Jesus, he is usually speaking of the father. I studied this topic in depth.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord (GOD), that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (GOD) shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself (GOD) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord (GOD) in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord (GOD).


In the above there is clearly a resurrection of dead believers. We are told this resurrection happens on "the last day" in multiple passages (Jhn 6:40, 44, 54 etc). Revelation 20:4-6 identifies a specific group of believers who are resurrected when Christ returns. This passage goes on to state that the rest of the dead do not live until 1,000 years are over. The resurrection associated with Christ is called, "the first resurrection" which of course implies it isn't the only resurrection. Read the text:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Those who return with Christ are those martyred during the Tribulation. It is this group who are part of the first resurrection who get to come back and get their revenge on the Man of Sin and the Beast Kingdom of Islam.

We are told also that the rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are finished. So what do they do? They stay in heaven with God the Father and rest. How do I know? Paul tells us this in 2 Thes 1:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels...

Paul can't be returning with Christ because He is resting. The text clearly says this. So, Paul and all those believers who died BEFORE the Tribulation are resting with the Father until Christ finishes His 1,000 year reign ruling the nations with a Rod of Iron. So given these facts which are CLEARLY stated, how do those resting with the Father and those reigning with Christ become united at the end??? They return with God the Father at the end descending from Heaven in the New Jerusalem (THE BRIDE). This is when the General Resurrection occurs and Paul teaches in 1 Thes 4:13-17 and 1 Cor 15:50-52.

You pre-tribbers take these passages and move them ahead 1,000 years from where they belong.

2 Corinthians 5:8:


We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (GOD).

Thus, since 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 belong at the end, everything ties together and makes sense. Otherwise, you have to ignore Rev 20:4-6 because this passage makes clear who returns with Christ and who remains with the Father.

 

[PlainWord]

[SUP]7 [/SUP] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

anti christ is at work now, someone is restraining it,

nowhere does it say the Holy spirit is the he restraining

Exactly, it is most likely Michael restraining Satan. Satan is in heaven accusing the brethren day and night. At some point war will break out in heaven and Satan will be cast down permanently. He then knows he has a short time and Satan's wrath is the Great Tribulation.

Right now we are seeing the evolution of ISLAM. The Bible clearly teaches that a rejuvenated Ottoman Empire (Turkey) will form a Northern Alliance of extreme ISLAMIC states/groups. They will attack the more moderate Arab nations (and Israel) to the South (especially Saudi Arabia). The King of the North (led by the Man of Sin) will attack the King of the South and also enter the Holy Land where he will claim to be above God. Daniel teaches us this.

Turkey has a new President who is using "miracles" they are actually more like magic stunts and is so far matching everything that Daniel and Paul say about this Evil Man. I just read that the Leader of ISIS has come out very harsh against Saudi. Mecca will be destroyed by the King of the North. MECCA is mystery Babylon. ISIS with Turkey and their 10 nation/group alliance will come down and destroy MECCA. The below is a story found on 12 Tribes, a Jewish News Outlet from just the other day.

New Audio Tape Bashing Jews and Christians Claims Islamic State Leader Still Alive | Israel Video Network

Regarding Saudi Arabia, al-Baghdadi said the Saudi leaders were the "head of the snake," and urged Islamic State supporters to attack them and the Shiites in the kingdom. "O sons of al-Haramayn (Saudi Arabia)...the snake's head and the stronghold of the disease are there...draw your swords and divorce life, because there should be no security for the Saloul," Baghdadi said, using a derogatory term to refer to the leadership of Saudi Arabia. The Islamic State leader urged Arab countries to carry out attacks against Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and the Sinai Peninsula. Al-Baghdadi added that the US will soon have to bring in ground troops to fight the Islamic State. "Oh soldiers of the Islamic State...erupt volcanoes of jihad everywhere. Light the earth with fire against all dictators," Baghdadi said. According to al-Baghdadi, the Islamic Caliphate that the Islamic State is attempting to create has already spread to Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Libya and Algeria. Contradictory reports had emerged over the fate of Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi after US-led air strikes against the group hit at least two locations in Iraq last Friday night.

 

[Bride]

Jesus has Come to me.
I have Married Him in the New Covenant to Israel.
I have conceived of His Incorruptible Seed.
The promise of Him Fathering a New Creature in me.
I now show forth the Son of God within me, Christ in me.
I labor and travail in birth pangs, in tribulation.
I shall soon be delivered of the Man Child.

It's nothing to put off folks. Now is the time. Marry Jesus. Say, "I DO!". Forget the devils and their futuristic false prophecies. Now is the Day of Salvation.

 

[JamesFlash]

Let me ask you one question: Why is it that those who believe as I do, are so full of JOY

possibly because they believe they are special and will escape any hurt or harm by being removed from the earth.
that's delusion however. i can see how believing the bus you've stepped in front of won't run over you might make you joyful as you step to your death.

what you believe is interesting, but no trace of it or anything like exists in the scripture. you were taught it by men who were taught by other men who were taught by men like John Nelson Darby.

 

[JamesFlash]

The Bible clearly teaches that a rejuvenated Ottoman Empire (Turkey) will form a Northern Alliance of extreme ISLAMIC states/groups. They will attack the more moderate Arab nations (and Israel) to the South (especially Saudi Arabia). The King of the North (led by the Man of Sin) will attack the King of the South and also enter the Holy Land where he will claim to be above God. Daniel teaches us this.

no, Daniel doesn't teach anything like that.
please direct me to the passage identifying a rejuvenated Ottoman Empire.

 

[JamesFlash]

There are those who think all the bad stuff is reserved for Israel during the Tribulation. Why, because some have become haughty as Paul warns they will in Romans 11. It should be clear that ISIS will kill Christians whenever and wherever they can. They may not make it to the USA in big numbers but they have been killing Christians in droves where they are and where they will go. Israel will definitely get the brunt of it given their proximity to the action but the Church is not exempt from being attacked by Satan. We are seeing it already as Churches are being persecuted in this country for their stand against gays, abortions, etc.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why did you leave out the beginning of this passage??

and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?" There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

so is ISIS the beast?

when does/did (his?) 42 months begin?