^ EDIT to add: I should clarify... I also believe there will be "saints" on the earth FOLLOWING our Rapture (they will have come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years), but they also (like the OT saints) are never referred to as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (a designation reserved solely for believers "in this present age [singular]" [Eph1:20-23, etc])
THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb
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I’ll respond to other post later... doing tractor work right now can’t make long posts at the moment.
“When the ark was a preparing”. They were before the law came.
1Pe 3:19 (KJV) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 (KJV) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
“When the ark was a preparing”. They were before the law came.
1Pe 3:19 (KJV) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 (KJV) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Correct J the BT was Elijah and the messenger prophesied to come before the great and terrible day of the Lord
(Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.)
And Paul affirms Daniel's statement:
(Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers)
(Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.)
And Paul affirms Daniel's statement:
(Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers)
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I assume, by "hidden," that you mean something like, there were so few of Israel who actually had faith that it was not very "apparent/visible" to any onlooker [??]... something like that. Coz God chose Israel so that the rest of the world would/could see God's address/residence, so to speak...
Or... what do you mean by "hidden" instead?
I'm saying that Scripture itself tells us when "the Church which is His body" came into existence (in time and history), and that is, FOLLOWING His death and resurrection/exaltation. (This is not to say that God didn't plan, "BEFORE" time, to have "the Church which is His body" to exist "in this present age [singular]"/now [and all of its associated "blessings" (v.3)], because HE DID, Eph1:4 [<---this, being distinct from the phrase "FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" which is used in connection with OTHERS, elsewhere])
Or... what do you mean by "hidden" instead?
I'm saying that Scripture itself tells us when "the Church which is His body" came into existence (in time and history), and that is, FOLLOWING His death and resurrection/exaltation. (This is not to say that God didn't plan, "BEFORE" time, to have "the Church which is His body" to exist "in this present age [singular]"/now [and all of its associated "blessings" (v.3)], because HE DID, Eph1:4 [<---this, being distinct from the phrase "FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" which is used in connection with OTHERS, elsewhere])
Actually you are a perfect example. The existence of the church, the body of Christ was so well hidden that you are trying to say there are two churches - 1 the Old Testament saints and 2 the New Testament saints.
David ate the shewbread which was only lawful for the priests to eat yet he was BLAMELESS. Ever wonder why he was blameless? He was a PRIEST.
1Pe 2:9 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
The church is all over the Old Testament but it was HIDDEN in stories like that of David.
It’s not hidden anymore, the bride is out of the closet.
David ate the shewbread which was only lawful for the priests to eat yet he was BLAMELESS. Ever wonder why he was blameless? He was a PRIEST.
1Pe 2:9 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
The church is all over the Old Testament but it was HIDDEN in stories like that of David.
It’s not hidden anymore, the bride is out of the closet.
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One of the unique characteristics (for lack of a better term, atm) pertaining to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (believers "in this present age [singular]") is the thing Jesus had said in both John 14:17c and what He had said in John 7:39 (or rather, the explanation of what He'd said in the previous verse, and explained here in verse 39, esp v.39b); compare with Eph1:13 and 4:30, as well as 1Cor12:13 (Col2:12, 3:1-4) and related passages...
Eph 1:10 (KJV) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
ALL THINGS in Christ - both IN HEAVEN and ON EARTH.
Who are those that are in heaven that Christ has joined together with those on the earth?
ALL THINGS in Christ - both IN HEAVEN and ON EARTH.
Who are those that are in heaven that Christ has joined together with those on the earth?
This dials back to what I'd said about the distinction between (and to whom they distinctly pertain) the two phrases:
--"FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" (see where this phrase is used, and with regard to whom); and
--"BEFORE [pro] the foundation of the world" (see where this phrase is used, and with regard to whom)
...and, after ascertaining to whom these two phrases distinctly pertain, then the "when" of it (v.10) comes into clearer focus (it is not speaking of "in this present age [singular]"/the NOW, as many mistakenly assume, like the rest of the Ephesians epistle is covering
)
... can come back later to this, but must close down for now
--"FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" (see where this phrase is used, and with regard to whom); and
--"BEFORE [pro] the foundation of the world" (see where this phrase is used, and with regard to whom)
...and, after ascertaining to whom these two phrases distinctly pertain, then the "when" of it (v.10) comes into clearer focus (it is not speaking of "in this present age [singular]"/the NOW, as many mistakenly assume, like the rest of the Ephesians epistle is covering
)... can come back later to this, but must close down for now
This dials back to what I'd said about the distinction between (and to whom they distinctly pertain) the two phrases:
--"FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" (see where this phrase is used, and with regard to whom); and
--"BEFORE [pro] the foundation of the world" (see where this phrase is used, and with regard to whom)
...and, after ascertaining to whom these two phrases distinctly pertain, then the "when" of it (v.10) comes into clearer focus (it is not speaking of "in this present age [singular]"/the NOW, as many mistakenly assume, like the rest of the Ephesians epistle is covering )
--"FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" (see where this phrase is used, and with regard to whom); and
--"BEFORE [pro] the foundation of the world" (see where this phrase is used, and with regard to whom)
...and, after ascertaining to whom these two phrases distinctly pertain, then the "when" of it (v.10) comes into clearer focus (it is not speaking of "in this present age [singular]"/the NOW, as many mistakenly assume, like the rest of the Ephesians epistle is covering
)
The answer is - those in heaven are the Old Testament church that Christ took to heaven with him.
[I trust the readers will examine closely, the two phrases I mentioned in that previous post]
It's almost as if you are disregarding the remainder of what Ephesians is conveying, in your efforts to use this v.10 in the manner that you are.
[I trust the readers will examine closely, the two phrases I mentioned in that previous post]
[I trust the readers will examine closely, the two phrases I mentioned in that previous post]
The message of Ephesians 1 is that we (his chosen people) were chosen before the foundation of the world.
He has predestined us (before the foundation of the world) to by adopted by God through Jesus Christ to do Gods will.
In order that WHEN THE TIME WAS RIGHT he would join together those in heaven and those in earth.
What am I missing?
I don't see how you can hair split Eph 1:10 as not being in effect when he wrote, Paul uses similar language in Galatians:
(Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law)
(Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him)
(Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will)
If Paul is stating that "we have obtained an inheritance", then the previous statement in 1:10 can't be projected hundreds of years in the Paul's future.
(Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law)
(Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him)
(Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will)
If Paul is stating that "we have obtained an inheritance", then the previous statement in 1:10 can't be projected hundreds of years in the Paul's future.
If I'm reading him right K16, he claiming Eph 1:10 happens in the age to come not the age Paul was living who stated that he was living in the consummation of the ages, therefore he was expecting the "age to come" within the 1st century.
1 Cor 10:11 Young's Literal) And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come)
Dispensationalist's claim we are not living in the "age to come", but still wobbling around in the same age that Paul lived in.
Not only that, he's contradicting Paul by saying the cross did not gather things in heaven and earth at the cross:
(Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.)
Paul is using gather in Eph 1:10 while keeping the same motif in Col 1:2 using reconcile.
(Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him)
We can add his thoughts here too:
(Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby)
1 Cor 10:11 Young's Literal) And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come)
Dispensationalist's claim we are not living in the "age to come", but still wobbling around in the same age that Paul lived in.
Not only that, he's contradicting Paul by saying the cross did not gather things in heaven and earth at the cross:
(Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.)
Paul is using gather in Eph 1:10 while keeping the same motif in Col 1:2 using reconcile.
(Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him)
We can add his thoughts here too:
(Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby)
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How do You figure:
The ANTICHRIST kills off the LAST of the Tribulation Saints, by beheading them.
Revelation 6:9-11 (NASB)
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Notice, the number of was added by the TRANSLATORS, which to me means, when you read it as written, EVERY LAST TRIBULATION SAINTS, will be BEHEADED who refused to take the MARK. That will take some time, and here we have the First of the Tribulation Saints Beheaded. Where do I get that they will be Beheaded ? IT SAYS SO:
Revelation 20:4-5 (NASB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
So there will be other MORTAL Survivors in other countries that BOW TOO HIM at HIS COMING, BUT every single person who came to BATTLE against CHRIST, will be KILLED by BY THE SWORD OF HIS MOUTH (HIS WORD). The Antichrist will have KILLED all the TRIBULATION SAINTS, the ARMIES of the WORLD who came to do BATTLE WITH HIM will be KILLED by HIS WORD, and the 144,000 will FLEE JERUSALEM into JORDAN, through the Canyon that HE CAUSED THE Mount of OLIVES to FORM. SO at that TIME, what is the Population of ISRAEL ? ? ? I think it will be ZERO. Thus the REASON for the 144,000 sealed in their mortal bodies, will be to repopulate ISRAEL,
Revelation 19:20-21 (NASB)
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest (I think that refers to everyone in ISRAEL) were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Does it say HOW HE WILL KILL THEM ? ? ? YES IT DOES. Do you remember the verse that says that Christ holds all things together. That would include the Cells of our Body. So if HE decides to let GO of those in ISRAEL, what would happen to CELLS in all of the combatants and all who worship the BEAST and have Received his MARK?
Revelation 14:19-20 (HCSB)
19 So the angel swung his sickle toward earth and gathered the grapes from earth’s vineyard, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.
20 Then the press was trampled outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press up to the horses’ bridles for about 180 miles. (That is ALL THE World's ARMIES GATHERED TO DO BATTLE AGAINST THE LORD OF Lords. Isn't it Amazing that all have been deceived into believing 'If we have enough combatants, we can overthrow The LORD, at the Battle in the Valley of Megiddo.')
I BELIEVE THAT IS LITERAL. ALL THE CELLS of all the Bodies in the Valley of Megiddo, in all the people who WORSHIPED the BEAST, and had his MARK to prove it; will have all the FLESH FALL OFF THEIR BONES INSTANTLY, creating that massive Blood flood.
HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE ? ? ?
IT WAS PROPHESIED TO BE THAT WAY:
Zechariah 14:2-21 (HCSB)
2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
5 You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
6 On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
7 It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
9 On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
10 All the land from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem will be changed into a plain. But ⌊Jerusalem⌋ will be raised up and will remain on its site from the Benjamin Gate to the place of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses.
11 People will live there, and never again will there be a curse of complete destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell in security.
12 This will be the plague the LORD strikes all the peoples with, who have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
13 On that day a great panic from the LORD will be among them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of one will rise against the other.
14 Judah will also fight at Jerusalem, and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected: gold, silver, and clothing in great abundance.
15 The same plague as the previous one will strike the horses, mules, camels, donkeys, and all the animals that are in those camps.
16 Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
17 Should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, rain will not fall on them.
18 And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter, then rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague the LORD inflicts on the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
20 On that day, ⌊the words⌋ HOLY TO THE LORD will be on the bells of the horses. The pots in the house of the LORD will be like the sprinkling basins before the altar.
21 Every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of Hosts. Everyone who sacrifices will come and take some of the pots to cook in. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of Hosts.
I BELIEVE THAT ENTIRE PROPHESY WILL HAPPEN JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN.
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You may be mis-reading me, but my greater concern is that you are (according the bold, above) mis-reading Paul in that verse.
I've pointed out in past posts (I think, to you) that the verse reads, "upon whom the ENDS [PLURAL] of the AGES [PLURAL] are arrived"
(and this is distinct from both "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" and "this present age [singular]"... and Ephesians also refers to "the ages [plural] that are coming" [Eph2:7]... which, this latter one can also include "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" [i.e. eternity], but per context I do not believe is limited to that alone and can [and very likely does] include the "ages [plural]" [or, rather, two individual ones] that FOLLOW "this present age [singular]" such as "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" AND "the age [singular] to come" which [<--the latter of these two] His disciples CORRECTLY understood to be referring to what WE call "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age"--mixing these up, as you seem to do, creates a confusion... and a wrong interpretation/application/understanding)
For the benefit of the readers: see here - https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/10-11.htm
"the ENDS [PLURAL] of the AGES [PLURAL]"
I've pointed out in past posts (I think, to you) that the verse reads, "upon whom the ENDS [PLURAL] of the AGES [PLURAL] are arrived"
(and this is distinct from both "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" and "this present age [singular]"... and Ephesians also refers to "the ages [plural] that are coming" [Eph2:7]... which, this latter one can also include "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" [i.e. eternity], but per context I do not believe is limited to that alone and can [and very likely does] include the "ages [plural]" [or, rather, two individual ones] that FOLLOW "this present age [singular]" such as "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" AND "the age [singular] to come" which [<--the latter of these two] His disciples CORRECTLY understood to be referring to what WE call "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age"--mixing these up, as you seem to do, creates a confusion... and a wrong interpretation/application/understanding)
For the benefit of the readers: see here - https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/10-11.htm
"the ENDS [PLURAL] of the AGES [PLURAL]"
^ Paul is not stating that 70ad [or, the events therein or surrounding it] was [or would be] "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that Jesus spoke of in Matt24:3+ (which, the disciples' Q of Him there in v.3 was BASED on His PRIOR talk with them in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50)
[Matt12:32 referring to "the age [singular] to come" but is not "this present age [singular]" nor "eternity" ("the AGES of the AGES" plural/plural)]
[Matt12:32 referring to "the age [singular] to come" but is not "this present age [singular]" nor "eternity" ("the AGES of the AGES" plural/plural)]