The church, Paul agrees, Post Tribulation.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 4, 2024

[I purposely split your quote in order to address each statement individually]

[disagree for reasons I explain below and have explained in many past posts]

2Th2 DISTINGUISHES the event of verse 1 (involving "ONLY US" and NO ONE ELSE) from that of verse 8b (the "MANIFESTATION of the presence / parousia of Him"... which is when "EVERY EYE" shall "SEE" Him...

... and it not only "distinguishes" these by means of "WHO" all is involved (in each), but ALSO by Paul's providing the SEQUENCE of the timing matters

(but only by CAREFUL READING of the text is this "sequence" understood properly, using correct "definitions" and correct "grammar" and by not incorrectly applying phrases to Jesus which actually refer to "the man of sin / THAT WICKED"--all of which I see COMMONLY DONE... but which lead one to WRONG CONCLUSIONS about what Paul is actually conveying in this text [including SEQUENCE matters, WHICH "SEQUENCE" he REPEATS 3x in this 2Th2 context! And which "sequence" he had already spoken of in his first letter; and which sequence AGREES with ALL other passages covering this SAME Subject])

[/QUOTE][Since the resurrection of Jesus - there is only one more prophetic] /"return" of Christ - the Second Coming of Christ.
[/QUOTE]

Right (only ONE "RETURN," that is, TO THE EARTH! THAT's what "RETURN" means). Per Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-48 [and its parallel] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom--not to MARRY those "blessed" persons in this context--He will be RETURNING *WITH* His "Bride/Wife [singular]"]... THEN "the MEAL [G347; Lk12; Matt8:11 and parallel; i.e. the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom]"... Exactly the same as what Rev19:7 and [the distinct] 19:9 show.

That is, only ONE "RETURN" TO THE EARTH (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER," aka "the MEAL [G347]," aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [see all those references], aka the "My barn" [context pertaining to the "WHEAT" harvest; I explained why THAT is not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"], aka the "MANIFESTATION of the presence/parousia of Him" when "EVERY EYE" shall "SEE Him" [1Tim6:15's "which in His times HE SHALL SHEW [/OPENLY MANIFEST]" (parallel to Rev19:16/17:14's time-slot, i.e. at the Armageddon time-slot, just as Rev16:15-16 also shows)].)

When He "RETURNS," that is, TO THE EARTH... His "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" will be returning WITH Him (FOR the MK age / "wedding FEAST / SUPPER"... but as "ALREADY-WED"... not for Him to "MARRY" those "blessed" persons ["saved persons / believers"] in the contexts where those are shown as "still-living" persons located on the earth upon His "RETURN" to the earth / THERE. (These "saints" will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies. They NEVER "lift off" the earth, but are present THERE when He "RETURNS" to there!)

So yes, we agree that "Everything the Bible SAYS will occur WHEN JESUS RETURNS - will occur - in its proper order - at that time (a single prophetic 'event')," BUT Scripture itself shows that ("at that time"... when He RETURNS), it will NOT be "TO BECOME WED / MARRIED," but AS AN ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"... *WITH* His "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]"

(not with [i.e. WED-to] the "5 [wise] VirginS [PL]" of Matt25; not with the "blessed" saints of Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-48 [and its parallel Mt24:42-51]; not with the "SHEEP ['blessed' of the nations (PL)]" of Matt25:31-34 and context; not with the "WHEAT" of the Matt13 context; etc etc etc...

...spoken of throughout the synoptics... and often as: "SON OF MAN cometh / coming of / comes / coming"--ALL "SON OF MAN coming [etc]" passages speak to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [FOR the EARTHLY MK age], to judge and to reign [NOT OF "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" Subject, per context])

Ditto to everything I said above.

Scripture, when referring to His "RETURN" speaks only of certain things (never of the fact of His "BEING / BECOMING WED" AT THAT POINT--He will be ALREADY-WED, and those saved persons in those contexts are NOT whom He will be coming "TO MARRY")

I agree with your sentence here.

But not your interpretations / applications / explanations-of-passages / etc.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 4, 2024

P.S. @GaryA , I had meant to ask you, how do you see the following verse (used in the CONTEXT of our "caught up [G726 - SNATCH]" event):

"To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before [G1715] God even our Father at [en] the coming/parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." 1Th3:13.

--What do you believe it means "before the God and Father of us IN THE COMING / PAROUSIA OF our Lord Jesus Christ with all the saints of Him"? (Do you see how we understand this to be "GOING UP" even beyond the "IN THE AIR" location to which we will be "caught up" TO "the meeting of the LORD..." there; but going yet further UPWARD [same as Rev12:5[,13] speaks to, which verse [/passage] being parallel to Micah 5:3 (is distinct from the Birth of Jesus HIMSELF in 5:2!)].)

--When do you believe "the judgment seat [BEMA] of Christ" takes place, and to whom does it pertain (and to what end / what is its purpose)... and which passages show it? Do you agree that when Paul spoke of how he would be awarded "stephanos / crown" (and not to him only) and said (it will be awarded) "IN THAT DAY," that this is referring to the "BEMA" event (judgment seat of Christ), at a singular point in time / in the chronology (as opposed to taking place upon each individual believers' DEATH, for example). If you do, where do you insert this event into your "up-and-immediately-down-again" [rapture] scenario? (or, you could say, at what point do the "CROWNS" come in?)

____________

Oh, and one other [kind of unrelated, but semi-related] question:

--are you connecting the TWO mentions of "GREAT trumpet" (found in scripture): Matt24:29-31 and Isaiah27:9,12-13?... or (per your covenant theology stance) do you see almost ALL OT items as "already-fulfilled" IN HIS FIRST COMING?

GaryA · Mar 4, 2024

John146 said:

GaryA said:

This is [also] my response to those who wish to convince me to change my view:

"We’re going to have to agree to disagree."

Hopefully, others will be willing to "be okay with that"...

My view is well-thought-out, well-studied, and well-intentioned.

Everyone is entitled to their own belief and opinion. And, I'm okay with that.

GaryA · Mar 4, 2024

@TheDivineWatermark - I will have to consider your posts at a later time - do not have time now - on my work lunch break - have to go back to work soon.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 4, 2024

Evmur said:

indeed this parable tells us a lot

“Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. ( good and bad are harvested at the same time at the end and separated )

(Now he explains the parable )

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

the field is the world;

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:24-30, 37-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

like a harvest you don’t uproot the wheat until the end of the harvest season at that time is when you sperwte the wheat and takers and then burn the field after you’ve harvested the good wheat

“But in those days, after that tribulation, ( Jesus has just told them clearly and plainly they would endure through it )the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24, 26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

same day the other side of that

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s going to return, raise the dead , gether all his people together with him and then he’s going to destroy the tares after this world has ran its course of rebellion against him

“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;

and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. …..But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

…..Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-4, 10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hes going to end this world but just a moment before he’s going to appear and gather his people

Evmur · Mar 4, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

I don't have much hope of showing you something ... but I'll try

The Jewish church had a different understand of the end times to Paul yet both are correct.

The Jewish church did not understand the Rapture, only Paul, neither did they understand what is called the parenthesis or the diminishing of the Jewish church and the long delay before the Lord returned to set up the 1, 000 years reign, these things were as Peter said "our beloved Paul writes about in all his letters, many things which be hard to understand.

They thought the church was itself the kingdom [which of course spiritually it is]

So for the Jews the coming again of our Lord is for the last judgement and the end of the world as shown in those parables.

But for Paul the coming again is to gather the church, it is not the end of the world but the end of the age.

Now in the 4th century the church decided to drop the doctrine of the 1, 000 reign, Millennialism. and adopted instead Amillennialism. In doing that they were adopting the Jewish understanding of eschatology ... they do not usually deny the Rap [some do] but effectually they do.

They compound the coming again for judgement [loud bangs and fervent heat etc] which is true and mix with it the coming again to gather the church.

Your reference from Paul to the Thessies about Him coming in flaming fire is a rare reference for him ... normally he speaks about the creation being set free from it's bondage to decay.

John has it by revelation that there are 2 resurrections 1, 000 years apart .... the resurrection of the blessed and the resurrection unto judgement.

Peace.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 4, 2024

GaryA said:

your exactly right did you notice how pre tribukation rapture has to make what Jesus said ……not correct ? What I mean is Christian’s talk about the great tribulation onky because it’s in the gospel but look at what he’s saying

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. ( he’s telling them what’s going to happen to them )

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: let him which is on the house top not come down to take any thing out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-25‬ ‭

Jesus told them of a great tribulation they would have to go through this is where the doctrine of the great tribulation comes from , and then him gathering his elect from the rest there

“But in those days, after that tribulation, ( that he’s thoroughly explained they would go through ) the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is what the apostles were witnessing to the world paul even revealing details of that day when he returns to gather his people jesus told them what would happen then Paul’s roles was to reveal details and applicable points to the church like this

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just because it doesn’t say how the angels will be gathering his people doesn’t mean it’s a different doctrine at all Paul’s offering other points about the same doctrine revealing it tonthe church

So how will we be caught up in the clouds ? How will the dead be raised that day when he returns ?

“in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,

and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what about the dead how will they be raised up that day ? And caught up to god ?

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

….it is sown a natural body;

it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body,

and there is a spiritual body.

…And as we have borne the image of the earthy, ( natural )

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. ( spiritual )

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,( from natural to spiritual ) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:

for the trumpet shall sound,

and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 44-45, 49-53‬ ‭

until we realize they are all talking about the same things it’s hard for people to agree

Evmur · Mar 4, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

Again (as we discussed in a different thread), it is not "7 YEARS" that they will be "burying"... but "7 MONTHS"

[as I pointed out to you in that other thread in the past, the "7 YEARS" pertains to the "burning of the weapons" NOT the "burying of the dead bodies"--Please examine the text in Ezekiel.]

Many of these details (supplied meticulously in Scripture), being ignored or thus overlooked, is a common avenue of coming to incorrect conclusions, on the Subject. It can be easy to do. We all are susceptible of doing this, at times.

But when it has been specifically pointed out to you in the past (with the verses spelled out to you in said past post/thread), and you still repeat this error, it becomes difficult to take you very seriously, sorry to say.

you need to read the whole of chapter 39. It's 7 years and Gog and those who fought with him will be buried in Israel.

... apology accepted

Pilgrimshope · Mar 4, 2024

Evmur said:

“The Jewish church had a different understand of the end times to Paul yet both are correct.”

Paul was a Jewish convert to the same church they all were and then gentiles were converted to later . He had the same understanding they all did from the law and prophets he was given revelation of the gospel for the whole church what’s true for a Jew is true for e gentile since Christ died and rose

it works better if we learn from scripture and don’t explain why we shouldn’t

everything I said was presented with scripture everything you said is reasons why we shouldn’t believe it

Evmur · Mar 4, 2024

GRACE_ambassador said:

this does not say that the church [the Body] though positionally in heaven will not undergo tribulation in this world, "in the world you will have tribulation"

Aye and when the Great Tribulation comes we will undergo that too.

Tribulation comes from the world and is persecution Jesus said "they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death "

We will not undergo God's wrath, we are clean escaped from that. Thanks be to Jesus.

Peace.

Evmur · Mar 4, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

“The Jewish church had a different understand of the end times to Paul yet both are correct.”

Paul was a Jewish convert to the same church they all were and then gentiles were converted to later . He had the same understanding they all did from the law and prophets he was given revelation of the gospel for the whole church what’s true for a Jew is true for e gentile since Christ died and rose

it works better if we learn from scripture and don’t explain why we shouldn’t

everything I said was presented with scripture everything you said is reasons why we shouldn’t believe it

Paul had revelations concerning the Gentile church the others didn't, He was not taught the gospel by man but by Jesus Christ.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 4, 2024

GaryA said:

No problem. Take your time (I'm not in a rush)... take as much time as you like.

Hope you enjoyed your lunch break.

(I'm about to have me some, too!

)

Blade · Mar 5, 2024

Really? "If you choose to reply you would have to defeat all fifteen arguments " Where are the arguments? I just read pages when it comes to Eze 13:20 which you took that verse so far out of context. You did no work at all on this. You make those that believe in post trib look foolish. Some write books on this and you only posted one verse from the OT and the one you did has nothing todo with caught up. That right there "The word "rapture" is not recorded in the Bible " who today with the world of information at our finger tips that studied this does not know that "Rapture" means "caught up" Caught up "harpazo, meaning, “to seize upon, spoil, snatch away or take to oneself,” especially used of rapture" I just copied and pasted that. Seems they knew.

Lets keep going why did you stop at this word Rapture? Well there are many words we use today that are not in the word of God.

You lost me at Eze 13:20. Now I do not follow pre mid or post. But let me help you. Go watch say Dr Michael Brown who said he was once Pre trib but is now Post-Tirb. Now this man is very wise he knows Hebrew and Greek and is Jewish. Well this will help you make a better as you said argument for post-trib.

The simple fact you only posted one verse from the OT and then that one was wrong. There are others verses that could help your as you said argument. Yeah lol I am very secure in my faith.

See for me to prove PRE MID POST I would have to in each case leave out some verses or use the classic "what that verse really means, What Christ was really saying". Yeah most when trying to make case know there are some verses here no one knows fully what was being said so we have to.. speculate. Yet we use that speculation at fact which it is not.

So I know if I am not watching not ready do not believe and Christ come pre-tirb will I go? Is GOD really going to force me to do something I do not believe in? I say this all the time a prophet that did not like being called that. He was old said one time on video "I am post-trib BUT if Christ comes pre-trib I am ready". That is very wise.

no offense to anyone. Just be watching and ready now..yeah. How awful is it to always be ready watching.. to always be thinking about HIM! I LOVE IT!

Nehemiah6 · Mar 7, 2024

Blade said:

So what? Would you rather use three words -- "caught up together"? Actually the word "rapture" is derived from the Latin "rapiemur" which is the translation for the Greek "harpazo" in the Latin Vulgate. And today, Christians generally understand what "the Rapture" means.

1 Thess 4:17 Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Christo in aera, et sic semper cum Domino erimus.
Douay-Rheims translation: Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.

Unless the Rapture is before the Tribulation, certain Bible prophecies cannot be fulfilled.

GaryA · Mar 8, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

Would you care to list any/some/all of them?

GaryA · Mar 21, 2024

@TheDivineWatermark

I believe that God-the-Father is coming with Jesus at the Second Coming of Christ - He will be 'present' for [at least] the initial 'phase' of it.

The BEMA is not a separate judgment - it is identically the same as the Great White Throne Judgment.

No - I do not believe that ALL OT prophecy has been fulfilled.

Stan_the_Man · Mar 22, 2024

Medad said:

So there won't be any more presidents named Trump?

Like Barron Trump won't be president someday?

Pilgrimshope · Mar 23, 2024

Evmur said:

Who we’re the other apostles taught the gospel by ? And was it a different gospel ?

“how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, ( Jesus )

and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; ( his apostles including Paul )

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”( why they were able to do miracles )
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul being chosen after the other makes no difference that’s Paul’s argument that he is one of Jesus apostles

Evmur · Mar 23, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

It was certainly not a different gospel to the gospel that Jesus taught and the gospel which the other apostles [let's call them the Jerusalem crowd] came to understand after the circumcision debacle between Paul and Peter at Antioch. Them Jerusalemites simply couldn't get their heads around a gospel cut loose from the law. The gospel of grace.

After the great conference in Jerusalem they came to agree 100% that Paul's understanding was the right one, not only for the Gentiles but also for the Jews. Nevertheless the Jews were still bound [now by choice] to abide by the law.

Salvation was and is by grace alone through faith and not of ourselves. Jame's letter to the gentile church showed full acceptance that the gentiles were not saved by nor bound to keep the law, out of respect for the Jews around them James appealed that they refrain from blood.

The Jerusalem crowd still thought the church was indeed the Kingdom of Heaven, they remained in Jerusalem from whence they supposed that the reign of Christ on earth would be rolled out. They thought that the Kingdom would spread and grow until the whole earth owned the lordship of our Lord Jesus. The would come the rebellion and the time of trouble culminating in the return of our Lord Jesus and the end of the world.

Paul knew differently.

He knew that the Jews were to be diminished, that there was to be a long delay in which the church was to be planted among the heathen nations, something far, far beyond anything the Jerusalm crowd could ever understand. The church was not the Kingdom but the heralds of the Kingdom, the witnesses to Jesus the coming King.

Jesus did tell them all this, but they simply didn't understand.

Now you see how that BOTH the Jewish understanding of the end-times AND Paul's understanding are perfectly correct ... each in their own time.

Only Paul preached the rapture because only he understood that the church was in the nations upon whom God would pour out His wroth, the church has to be taken out before.

John had it by revelation. That there were to be 2 resurrections, hence a 2nd coming of our Lord and the final coming of the Lord after the 1, 000 years to judge.

So you have this different understand of how the world will end. The Jewish understanding and the Pauline understanding.

Peter and co talk about loud bangs and fervent heat to the melting away of the elements etc.

Paul talks about the creation being SET FREE from it's bondage to decay. He talks about the glory to come, the revelation of the sons of God.

Both Jesus and Pauls talk about the end times in terms of child birth, the pangs etc. Something is gunna be birthed.

In short the Jewish understanding compounds the 2nd and 3rd coming of our Lord into a single 2nd coming.

And that also is the Amillennial view too. What they are doing is cutting out the 1, 000 years. Their purpose is to cut the Jews out.

Peace.

Charlie_2024 · Mar 23, 2024

Medad said:

1. The prophecy regarding False prophets teach the souls to fly and God is against it - Ezekiel 13:20 kjv
2. Jesus said His coming is after the tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27
3. Jesus teaches the wicked will be gathered first - Matthew 13:30, 39-43
4. Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 not to be deceived by letters from us, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as he is going to cover the gathering back to Jesus in this chapter. 2Thes 2.
5. Paul agrees that believers will be changed at the last trumpet - 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
6. Paul agrees in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that Jesus' coming is after Satan
7. The word "rapture" is not recorded in the Bible
8. The subject in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is about the resurrection of the dead
9. The resurrection of the dead - John 5:28-29
10. The last trumpet and the transformation of believers - 1 Corinthians 15:52
11. The judgment of the wicked and the righteous - Revelation 20:11-15
12. The sounding is only of seven trumpets in Revelation 8:2 signifies the seventh trumpet, with the seventh trump being the last trump
13. The announcement of Jesus return is indeed revealed in the 7th and last trumpet Revelation 11:15
14. In kjv 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is the only place in the rapture teaching of 1Thes 4 17, that mentions a time of Jesus return, in the term "and with the trump of God"
1Thes 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
we know from Rev 11:15 this the 7th trump the last trump is the trumpet annoucing HIS Coming His 2nd and only return. There is not 3 advents. If you choose to reply you would have to defeat all fifteen arguments but Jesus red letters are clear about the tribulation Matt 24:30 HIS WORD IS CLEAR.

One could say Jesus is currently reining upon the earth, because His Church and Kingdom are expanding fast on the earth. That's not technically His second coming but it is a Spiritual presence among His people right now.

The church, Paul agrees, Post Tribulation.

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