The church, Paul agrees, Post Tribulation.

[GaryA]

And once again, when Christ comes at the Rapture He comes PERSONALLY. He does not send out His angels at that time.

Christ comes personally - has angels with Him - sends them out - simple.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus meets His Church, and those that had died in Him, in the air 1st.

They will be with Him (NOT on Earth) until 7 or possibly just the 3.5 yrs of Great Tribulation are finished.

Right ("and SO [in this manner] shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"; note: a DISTINCT "with"-word from that of, say, the "G3326 - with / ACCOMPANYING [Him]" said of the "5 [wise] VirginS [PLURAL]" whom He is NOT "MARRYING"!! [note: I'm not saying the "G3326" word is never used in contexts about us])


1Th3:13 (in the CONTEXT of where we find the 1Th4:17 "caught up / snatched [G726]" word) is WHERE He will be TAKING US once we are "raptured" TO the meeting of the Lord "IN THE AIR"... 3:13 says, "BEFORE [*G1715 - emprosthen - IN THE PRESENCE OF ] the God and Father of us [that's UP THERE!] in the coming/parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints")


--*G1715 - emprosthen "b. before, in the presence of, equivalent to opposite to, over against one: στῆναι, Matthew 27:11; ὁμολογεῖν and ἀρνεῖσθαι (Buttmann, 176 (153)), Matthew 10:32; Matthew 26:70; Luke 12:8,(9 Lachmann); also Galatians 2:14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:9, 13





Consider why (for one example) it will be the ENTIRE "SEVEN YEARS":

- Gen29:27 (in the context of a "marriage" union) says,

"Fulfil H4390 her H2063 week, H7620 [or, 'FULFILL/COMPLETE THE WEEK [7 years] OF THIS ONE'] and we will give H5414 thee this also for the service H5656 which thou shalt serve H5647 with me yet seven H7651 other H312 years. H8141"


... where the word "WEEK [G7620]" is the Hebrew word "šāḇûaʿ " meaning, "heptad, seven (of years)"... "literally, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years):—seven, week."

So the antichrist will arrive FIRST on Earth before Jesus comes back to EARTH.

Right, and THAT (underlined) is called, the "MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" 2Th2:8b when "EVERY EYE" shall "SEE Him" (being completely distinct from that of the v.1 event and time-slot, which v.1 involves ONLY "US"! [where the word "parousia" is also used, JUST AS it is used in 1Th3:13, 1Th4:17's CONTEXT [but the "direction / location" will be "UP" in that case!--"in the presence of the God and Father of us"!!])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There are no "catching up" promises to 'Israel'.

Agreed.

They will be "gathered" ('ONE BY ONE') into one place upon the earth. That is NOT a "SNATCH [G726--'rapture / caught up']"... agreed!










["rapture / caught up / catching up / snatch [G726]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]); not to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods]

 

[Nehemiah6]

Christ comes personally - has angels with Him - sends them out - simple.

Since that is not in either 1 Thessalonians or 1 Corinthians, you just manufactured your own Resurrection/Rapture.

 

[John146]

You got that right...

( And, no one makes a mix-mash of it better than 'pre-trib' folks! )


There are no "catching up" promises to 'Israel'.

There is only one large group "catching up" event in prophecy.

The idea of the "catching up" of 'Israel' is "not even a thing" in scripture.

See Matthew 24. This is not the body of Christ in Matthew 24. They are Jews.

 

[Evmur]

[from how I'm reading you] I trust you AGREE with me, that:

--the ones "TAKEN" (in these contexts) are "taken away IN JUDGMENT" (just as in Noah's day);

--and the ones who are "LEFT" (in these contexts) are "left TO ENTER the MK age [in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children--the ONLY ONES who will have that capacity in the MK age, besides their offspring, of course, who will also]" (just as in Noah's day, likewise)



[this is a "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" CONTEXT (Rev19!); NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" context!]



Yeah, Lk17:27,29 "and destroyed them ALL" (that's NOT what takes place at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" TIME-SLOT!)

it will be a brave man among us who will say they know just exactly how it is all going to be.

I don't believe Jesus comes to destroy but to reign, however there will be Antichrist and there will be the armies that came up with him to Jerusalem ... there will be those who have taken his mark. These will be slain in similar fashion as their master was.

These are the bones the Jews will be burying 7 years according to Ezekiel.

As for the church I believe many times more will be martyred than "who are alive and remain" to be caught up together with those who sleep.

 

[Evmur]

it will be a brave man among us who will say they know just exactly how it is all going to be.

I don't believe Jesus comes to destroy but to reign, however there will be Antichrist and there will be the armies that came up with him to Jerusalem ... there will be those who have taken his mark. These will be slain in similar fashion as their master was.

These are the bones the Jews will be burying 7 years according to Ezekiel.

As for the church I believe many times more will be martyred than "who are alive and remain" to be caught up together with those who sleep.

you realise if you take Ezekiel literally then every Jew who ever lived will be raised up at Jesu's coming ... the whole house of Israel.

 

[Evmur]

1. The prophecy regarding False prophets teach the souls to fly and God is against it - Ezekiel 13:20 kjv
2. Jesus said His coming is after the tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27
3. Jesus teaches the wicked will be gathered first - Matthew 13:30, 39-43
4. Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 not to be deceived by letters from us, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as he is going to cover the gathering back to Jesus in this chapter. 2Thes 2.
5. Paul agrees that believers will be changed at the last trumpet - 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
6. Paul agrees in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that Jesus' coming is after Satan
7. The word "rapture" is not recorded in the Bible
8. The subject in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is about the resurrection of the dead
9. The resurrection of the dead - John 5:28-29
10. The last trumpet and the transformation of believers - 1 Corinthians 15:52
11. The judgment of the wicked and the righteous - Revelation 20:11-15
12. The sounding is only of seven trumpets in Revelation 8:2 signifies the seventh trumpet, with the seventh trump being the last trump
13. The announcement of Jesus return is indeed revealed in the 7th and last trumpet Revelation 11:15
14. In kjv 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is the only place in the rapture teaching of 1Thes 4 17, that mentions a time of Jesus return, in the term "and with the trump of God"
1Thes 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
we know from Rev 11:15 this the 7th trump the last trump is the trumpet annoucing HIS Coming His 2nd and only return. There is not 3 advents. If you choose to reply you would have to defeat all fifteen arguments but Jesus red letters are clear about the tribulation Matt 24:30 HIS WORD IS CLEAR.

... You just took away the 1, 000 years kingdom on earth

 

[Medad]

I am suggesting no such thing. Read what I wrote carefully. "Advent" means "the arrival of a notable person, thing, or event." But at the Resurrection/Rapture there is no "arrival". Instead it is an

You got that right...

( And, no one makes a mix-mash of it better than 'pre-trib' folks! )


There are no "catching up" promises to 'Israel'.

There is only one large group "catching up" event in prophecy.

The idea of the "catching up" of 'Israel' is "not even a thing" in scripture.

Paul was clear to the Church
we all, change into those spiritual bodies 1Cor 15:44; 52 and gather back to Jesus after the working of Satan, 2Thes 2 at the last Trump, Rev 11:15 the Trump of God as Paul told you in 1Thes 4:16. That is the Church of Jesus .. YOU KNOW PAUL LETTERS AGREEING WITH JESUS.

If you would've read the article I posted I shouldn't have to repeat myself here again. You are defeated in your debate in scripture. From the Prophesy, to Red Letter, and finally in PAUL LETTERS to the church, all agreeing in the One Word of God on the 2nd and last advent.
You present serious Miss interpretations with no documentation as the documentation you claim you present is not on topic. 1Thes 4:17.
Thus you have no documentation. Because you're worried about how He is able to protect the hair on your head? Which is a completely different topic. PAUL called it "gathering together unto Him" 2Thes 2:1. So be the correct terminology.

His return, only 2 advents, the 2nd one is the gathering back to HIM. This is well document from the OT, regarding the false prophets too, found in Eze 13 of teaching the souls to fly, in verse 20 to Jesus Words on tribulation, saying I return after the tribulation in Matt 24:30 to Paul prophecy TO THE CHURCH of Jesus "GATHERING" is after the working of satan, at the last trump, which is the Trump of God calling us into the kingdom of God. Says JESUS AND PAUL.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There are no "catching up" promises to 'Israel'.

So what? You were shown to be wrong so now you come up with all kinds of nonsense.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

it will be a brave man among us who will say they know just exactly how it is all going to be.

Wait! Did you call yourself a coward? ♫ 😇 ↑

woops, my baad - engaging again

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

( And, no one makes a mix-mash of it better than 'pre-trib' folks! )

Precious friend, until we are shown your so-called "proper method" of study,
we will stay with God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! For example:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom (past/future)

(1) Concerns a kingdom: a political organization
(Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:10)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
(Current = “But NOW!” Romans 3:21, 7:6, 16: 26; Ephesians 2:13 et al):

(1) Concerns A Body, HIS Church; a Living Organism
(1 Corinthians 12:12, 27; Ephesians 4:12-16)

Prophecy:
(2) The kingdom to be established on earth
(Jeremiah 23:5; Matthew 6:10)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

The Mystery:
(2) The Body {Church} Given a position in Heaven!
(Ephesians 1:3, 2:5-6; Colossians 3:1-3 AV)

How, Exactly, is this noting the Differences of Two Different programs of
God = "mix-mash"? Wouldn't that be "Mixing Up The Two Into ONE?

Amen.

PS. The Rightly Divided study of pre-trib is found here, if you wish:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

@John146 and I will pray that you would prayerfully and Carefully
consider it, but, you can call it what-ever you wish

Grace And Peace.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

These are the bones the Jews will be burying 7 years according to Ezekiel.

Again (as we discussed in a different thread), it is not "7 YEARS" that they will be "burying"... but "7 MONTHS"




[as I pointed out to you in that other thread in the past, the "7 YEARS" pertains to the "burning of the weapons" NOT the "burying of the dead bodies"--Please examine the text in Ezekiel.]





Many of these details (supplied meticulously in Scripture), being ignored or thus overlooked, is a common avenue of coming to incorrect conclusions, on the Subject. It can be easy to do. We all are susceptible of doing this, at times.

But when it has been specifically pointed out to you in the past (with the verses spelled out to you in said past post/thread), and you still repeat this error, it becomes difficult to take you very seriously, sorry to say.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

to Paul prophecy TO THE CHURCH of Jesus "GATHERING" is after the working of satan

The phrase in 2Th2:9 -

--"after ['kata'] the working of satan" is not speaking of a matter of CHRONOLOGY / SEQUENCE / ORDER; but rather "ACCORDING TO the working of satan" ("kata" = "ACCORDING TO"... NOT "sequence");


--"WHOSE COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PAROUSIA is ACCORDING TO ['kata'] the working of satan..."; in this phrase, the "WHOSE [coming]" is speaking of "the man of sin" (NOT "Jesus")









So right off the bat, you have shown mistaken definitions and grammar (and a mis-application)... which leads you to an incorrect "chronology" of the whole matter.

 

[stilllearning]

Again (as we discussed in a different thread), it is not "7 YEARS" that they will be "burying"... but "7 MONTHS"




[as I pointed out to you in that other thread in the past, the "7 YEARS" pertains to the "burning of the weapons" NOT the "burying of the dead bodies"--Please examine the text in Ezekiel.]





Many of these details (supplied meticulously in Scripture), being ignored or thus overlooked, is a common avenue of coming to incorrect conclusions, on the Subject. It can be easy to do. We all are susceptible of doing this, at times.

But when it has been specifically pointed out to you in the past (with the verses spelled out to you in said past post/thread), and you still repeat this error, it becomes difficult to take you very seriously, sorry to say.

I again am in agreement with you, however, just offering a different perspective to the overall picture of what will be going down in a different light.

I am a military man spent my youth and most my adult life as that being my life and my way of life. Spent that time in the covert and combat arms. So to me when I read it one thing that just jumps out is the burning of the equipment. Verse 10 of the passage says: So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

That is a fuel source in that time period they used wood for light, heat, and cooking by burning it. By and large most military equipment is powered by diesel fuel when it comes to ground weaponry. When you go and look up Israel and it's power plants, diesel is the largest fuel that is used to generate power.

Just as we use fuel oil or heating oil in a certain amount of our states for heating in winter. It is diesel fuel just a heavier type of it.

"While they are used for two completely different purposes, home heating fuel oil No. 2 and diesel No. 2 are very similar and, in some cases, can be interchanged. But while diesel fuel is relatively consistent, home heating fuel can vary form region to region and from winter to summer."

https://sciencing.com/about-6726131-diesel-vs--home-heating-oil.html

So for me when I read the passage I can't help but read how that burning of the weapons will provide their needs of a power source for 7 years. So anyway when an Army is on the move one thing that you have to account for and make sure it moves with you to meet the logistical need for is fuel, is fuel for your vehicle's, armor, self propelled artillery', and such.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The "WHOSE [coming]" in v.9a is the SAME PERSON that v.8b had just spoken of using the word "WHOM" (THAT person).



whose G3739 coming G3952 is G2076 after G2596 [kata - 'ACCORDING TO'] the working G1753 of Satan G4567 with G1722 all G3956 power G1411 and G2532 signs G4592 and G2532 lying G5579 wonders, G5059" [that's NOT "Jesus"!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That is a fuel source in that time period they used wood for light, heat, and cooking by burning it.

So for me when I read the passage I can't help but read how that burning of the weapons will provide their needs of a power source for 7 years.

I agree!







[some have suggested that the weapons being spoken of here, might be made of "lignostone"--highly-compressed wood (or, "densified wood") that burns well and long. I agree as to its purpose, as you say ]

 

[GaryA]

Since that is not in either 1 Thessalonians or 1 Corinthians, you just manufactured your own Resurrection/Rapture.

Nope - there is no requirement for every last single detail related to an 'event' be present in every passage that refers to that event in some way.

See Matthew 24. This is not the body of Christ in Matthew 24. They are Jews.

The 'initial' [direct] audience of the Olivet Discourse were "Jewish Christian" disciples of Jesus.

All of the Olivet Discourse concerns Christians - no part of it is specifically about Israel as a nation.

Even that which is related to the events of 70 A.D. is about Christians (and history in general).

It is about "future Christian history" and world-history-in-general before/until 'the end'.

So what? You were shown to be wrong so now you come up with all kinds of nonsense.

No nonsense - just a common sense babe milk 101 understanding of what scripture actually says...

And - this is what it says...

Since the resurrection of Jesus - there is only one more prophetic "coming"/"return" of Christ - the Second Coming of Christ.

Everything the Bible says will occur when Jesus returns - will occur - in its proper order - at that time (a single prophetic 'event').

There are no extra/other 'events' related to the return of Christ apart from the singular 'event' that is the Second Coming of Christ.

This is the 'core' requirement where a proper understanding of End Times prophecy is concerned. And, if your eschatology is not built upon it - it will not be correct - you will not have a proper understanding of End Times prophecy.

 

[John146]

Nope - there is no requirement for every last single detail related to an 'event' be present in every passage that refers to that event in some way.


The 'initial' [direct] audience of the Olivet Discourse were "Jewish Christian" disciples of Jesus.

All of the Olivet Discourse concerns Christians - no part of it is specifically about Israel as a nation.

Even that which is related to the events of 70 A.D. is about Christians (and history in general).

It is about "future Christian history" and world-history-in-general before/until 'the end'.


No nonsense - just a common sense babe milk 101 understanding of what scripture actually says...

And - this is what it says...

Since the resurrection of Jesus - there is only one more prophetic "coming"/"return" of Christ - the Second Coming of Christ.

Everything the Bible says will occur when Jesus returns - will occur - in its proper order - at that time (a single prophetic 'event').

There are no extra/other 'events' related to the return of Christ apart from the singular 'event' that is the Second Coming of Christ.

This is the 'core' requirement where a proper understanding of End Times prophecy is concerned. And, if your eschatology is not built upon it - it will not be correct - you will not have a proper understanding of End Times prophecy.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[GaryA]

We’re going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm okay with that.