The Dangers of the Hebrew Roots Messianic Movement

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If the shoe fits, wear it...

Know this, that in the last days difficult times will come, for people will be ... maintaining a form of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid these people. For from these are those who slip into houses and captivate foolish women loaded down with sins, led by various kinds of desires, always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:1-7​

 

[Elin]

You are actually lying about a movement to listen to the entire scripture, the movement is to listen to all 66 books, and find how they are about the same God, the eternal God.

They are about the same God, who first revealed his plan of redemption in shadows, copies, patterns (Heb 8:7), which were only pre-figures, and not the reality itself, which was to come (Heb 10:1).

When that same God presented the reality of those shadows, copies and patterns,
which was his Son whom he presented as atonement (Ro 3:25) for the sin of those
who believe in him, he likewise did away with the shadows, copies and patterns.

He changed the Aaronic priesthood to the priesthood of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11)
in fulfillment of Ps 110:4.
God's change of the priesthood then required a change and setting aside of the law
(Heb 7:18-19) which he had based on that priesthood (Heb 7:12),
and then his change of the law made the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13)
because it was based on the law.

God made some drastic changes from the OT to the NT.

You say that God is not the same one who wrote the law of Moses, and who sent His Son. God was the same in Numbers and in Galatians. They agree. You say they don't. That is not so.

To say that God himself has changed, because he went from pre-figure to reality regarding the salvation
by his Son, is absurd.
God himself doesn't have to change in order to change/replace the prefigures with their reality.

And that progression from pre-figure in the OT, to reality in the NT, is everywhere the testimony
of the NT.

To say the progression from pre-figure to reality means that God himself has changed is a blantantly false argument.

You are angry because these people use the feasts and rituals, not for salvation but to remember what God gave them for in the first place. Most of you don't even know why. You follow a man, you follow Constantine and what he said to do. They say that God is better to follow.

And I will repeat to you what I previously stated to you on this point in post #84:

The NT word of God does not take a benign view of honoring God according to
what seems good to us, because that is using our own man-made rites, which God has not authorized
in the NT.

NT believers are not to use Jewish ceremonies.

Practice of these ceremonies is turning back to dead, miserable,
worldly (authorized by man only) forms of religion (Gal 4:3, 8-11; Col 2:8, 20),
because they do not come from the new creation in Christ.
Christians are not to use any ceremonies not authorized by Jesus or the apostles.

In the NT, the practice of unauthorized ceremonies is "will-worship" (Col 2:22-23, KJV),
devising our own way of honoring God instead of honoring him only in the way he has prescribed.

All forms of religion outside the NT are worldly
because they are not authorized by God, but by man.
Being unauthorized by him, they are, therefore, dishonoring to God;
and we are to do nothing that dishonors God (1Co 10:31).

We must not make Uzzah's mistake of presuming God will be pleased with what seems good
to us (2Sa 6:6-7), but rather we must inquire of God in his word how he would have us honor him
(1Chr 15:13), so that what seems good to us is not, in fact, dishonoring him (Col 2:22-23).

And as in the case of David who, because he had no warrant for building a Temple (2Sa 7:7),
was stopped by Nathan from doing so (2Sa 7:13)

So, in the NT for example, Seder has been replaced with the Lord's Supper (1Co 11:24-26).
Jesus' focus at the Lord's Supper was not about a past event, but a future event.
His focus was not Israel, but the cross, and all those who would believe in him (Jn 17).
In the NT, we are to proclaim the Lord's death until he comes (1Co 11:26), not Israel's deliverance
from Pharoah.

God in his word authorizes no other Christian rites or ordinances but baptism, the Lord's Supper,
anointing with oil (Mk 6:13; Jas 5:14) and laying on of hands (Ac 6:6, 8:18, 13:3; 1Tim 4:14;
2Tim 1:6; Heb 6:2).

It is not for us to improve on God's ordinances.

 

[RedTent]

They are about the same God, who first revealed his plan of redemption in shadows, copies, patterns (Heb 8:7), which were only pre-figures, and not the reality itself, which was to come (Heb 10:1).

When that same God presented the reality of those shadows, copies and patterns,
which was his Son whom he presented as atonement (Ro 3:25) for the sin of those
who believe in him, he likewise did away with the shadows, copies and patterns.

He changed the Aaronic priesthood to the priesthood of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11)
in fulfillment of Ps 110:4.
God's change of the priesthood then required a change and setting aside of the law
(Heb 7:18-19) which he had based on that priesthood (Heb 7:12),
and then his change of the law made the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13)
because it was based on the law.

God made some drastic changes from the OT to the NT.


To say that God himself has changed, because he went from pre-figure to reality regarding the salvation
by his Son, is absurd.
God himself doesn't have to change in order to change/replace the prefigures with their reality.

And that progression from pre-figure in the OT, to reality in the NT, is everywhere the testimony
of the NT.

To say the progression from pre-figure to reality means that God himself has changed is a blantantly false argument.


And I will repeat to you what I previously stated to you on this point in post #84:

The NT word of God does not take a benign view of honoring God according to
what seems good to us, because that is using our own man-made rites, which God has not authorized
in the NT.

NT believers are not to use Jewish ceremonies.

Practice of these ceremonies is turning back to dead, miserable,
worldly (authorized by man only) forms of religion (Gal 4:3, 8-11; Col 2:8, 20),
because they do not come from the new creation in Christ.
Christians are not to use any ceremonies not authorized by Jesus or the apostles.

In the NT, the practice of unauthorized ceremonies is "will-worship" (Col 2:22-23, KJV),
devising our own way of honoring God instead of honoring him only in the way he has prescribed.

All forms of religion outside the NT are worldly
because they are not authorized by God, but by man.
Being unauthorized by him, they are, therefore, dishonoring to God;
and we are to do nothing that dishonors God (1Co 10:31).

We must not make Uzzah's mistake of presuming God will be pleased with what seems good
to us (2Sa 6:6-7), but rather we must inquire of God in his word how he would have us honor him
(1Chr 15:13), so that what seems good to us is not, in fact, dishonoring him (Col 2:22-23).

And as in the case of David who, because he had no warrant for building a Temple (2Sa 7:7),
was stopped by Nathan from doing so (2Sa 7:13)

So, in the NT for example, Seder has been replaced with the Lord's Supper (1Co 11:24-26).
Jesus' focus at the Lord's Supper was not about a past event, but a future event.
His focus was not Israel, but the cross, and all those who would believe in him (Jn 17).
In the NT, we are to proclaim the Lord's death until he comes (1Co 11:26), not Israel's deliverance
from Pharoah.

God in his word authorizes no other Christian rites or ordinances but baptism, the Lord's Supper,
anointing with oil (Mk 6:13; Jas 5:14) and laying on of hands (Ac 6:6, 8:18, 13:3; 1Tim 4:14;
2Tim 1:6; Heb 6:2).

It is not for us to improve on God's ordinances.

You bring out some fine points that agree with scripture. You say God has not changed. You say that there was a big difference that Christ made.

Where we differ is what you say about the shadow of Christ that was in the OT. You seem to say the shadow should not be looked at, and I say I should be. A shadow is an exact copy of the real thing without the details filled in. Christ filled out the details but the shadow does not lie.

It is against scripture to use anything but Christ for our salvation. We are not to do that. But we are also to follow scripture exactly, not change it here and there. That means it is important to find out just what spoken of in the OT was replaced by Christ. All those things were used by God, we need to not just toss them aside willy nilly, but know what is not of use to us any more, but we are to use Christ instead.

You know not to throw out Christ, but much of what you preach is to throw out God the Father instead. Christ was not a new, younger, more up to date God. Christ was from the beginning. The same principles that applied in BC also apply in AD. It was animal blood before, altho it is changed to Christ's blood, it is blood after. It was priests, before, and altho who the priests are changed, it is priests after.

 

[Yahshua]

It's not about touching it, it's about "drawing nearer."
Simply drawing nearer would have resulted in death.

Don't touch = death. They were told to approach to the mountain but do not go up INTO the mountain; don't touch it.

Exodus 19:12

And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

Why are you straining a gnat for this issue?

My Bible does not state it was the stone used.
What Bible do you use?

And how does "two stones" (tablets) alter the fact that Moses supplied them, which would make them ordinary stone, indicating the first copy was ordinary stone?

I use the bible that one reads in context.

Exodus 24:10-12

Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and **I will give thee** tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them. And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.

SOO...God uses sapphire (a blue stone) just for his pavement; for something as basic as walking on. What else does God use sapphire for?

Ezekiel 1:26

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

SOO...God uses sapphire (a blue stone) for his throne; for something as basic as resting on. Hmm...I'm sensing a pattern here.

Gasp! Could God actually use sapphire for something as IMPORTANT as drafting his Covenant & Law; the perfect reflection of his very character & nature??? Nah!! Let's just use any old stone for that. ...But at the same time, let's command Israel to specifically wear a ribbon of BLUE to remember those same commandments written on that stone he supplied. C'mon, Elin...

Where were tassels commanded in Scripture?
What does that have to do with custom?

I gave the verses where tassels were commanded in Scripture: Numbers 15:38

Speak to the sons of Israel, and tell them that they shall make for themselves tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and that they shall put on the tassel of each corner a cord of blue.

39"It shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the LORD [those same laws God write with stone HE supplied], so as to do them and not follow after your own heart and your own eyes, after which you played the harlot.

The tassels were commanded as reminders to follow the commandments of God, Elin.

First of all, that is the clothing of the High Priest, not the ordinary Jew.
And the white tunic has no tassels, the tassels are on the blue robe of the High Priest.

I was going to edit the post to write "left" but I ran out of time...however, I DID say the *white* garments didn't I? I thought you would know which one I was actually talking about so I didn't think I had to make another post correcting it. Then over *that* white garment they'd wear a secondary garment something like the very first image I showed you, with tassels at the four corners. That's why I put the images together for you. Never said the white garment had tassels, Elin. I said the white garment didn't have hems.

Secondly, my Bible actually states she touched "the edge of his cloak." "Hem" is from older translations.

Well scripture *ACTUALLY* states in Matthew 9:20

Καὶ [and] ἰδοὺ [behold] γυνὴ [woman] αἱμορροοῦσα [having flux of blood] δώδεκα [12] ἔτη [years] προσελθοῦσα [having come up] ὄπισθεν [behind] ἥψατο [touched] τοῦ [the] κρασπέδου [fringe] τοῦ [(of) the] ἱματίου [garment] αὐτοῦ [(of) him]·

Which has been poorly translated several different ways over the years by English scribes who had no clue about the culture from which Christ fleshly originated. kraspedon means "a border, tassel" (Strong's 2899). himation means "(any) outer garment" (Strong's 2440) worn over the inner garment (those white clothes I mentioned).

Thirdly, there is no indication she believed something about his clothing.

See this is why understanding what they understood is important because Christ - in order to be the "genuine article" - absolutely HAD to confirm *everything* that was written in the Torah & Prophets. Sure there were some misunderstandings the people had about that which was written...but for the most part, the people KNEW the scriptures (for instance, remember his apostles wondered where Elijah was if Christ was the Messiah, becausue they knew scripture said "Elijah comes first"). This woman KNEW from Malachi that there would be healing in his KANAPH/Tassels (Mal 4:2), not because there's magic in it but because of the sole fact that he was THE Messiah. We're actually given this indication by her because we're TOLD what she was thinking.

Matthew 9:21

she said indeed within herself, if only I shall touch the (outer) garment of him I will be cured.

She could've asked him for healing, as he was freely giving it. But she didn't. She touched him. And notice...it wasn't just her toughing his clothes anywhere because EVERYONE was touching him all over. Notice in Luke 8:45

And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

Peter says, "master you have a multitude of people around you pressing up against you and you're asking 'who touched me'!?"

But there is legislation in the Mosaic Law that all bodily discharges make one unclean, and whoever they touch becomes unclean.
Therefore, she would have touched his cloak, not because she believed something about his clothing, but because to touch his body would have made him unclean.

This is the lamb of God who bares the sins OF THE WORLD; our filthy sin put *on* him. The Law also dictates that adultery should be stoned...but Christ came to grant mercy not judgment. The woman knew EXACTLY what she was doing which is why in Luke 8:47 we read this:

And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.

Scripture plainly says "SHE TOUCHED HIM" on purpose, and was scared because she knew she was breaking quarantine restrictions...which further shows she knew the scriptures.

It's just better to stay with what is written.

By all means stay with what is written; don't venture any further...however, I have to dig deeper.

Proverbs 25:2

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [and queens, btw] is to search out a matter.

Mattheqw 13:44

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hides, and for joy thereof goes and sells all that he hath, and buys that field.

...to dig some more.

 

[Elin]

You bring out some fine points that agree with scripture.

Thanks.

You say God has not changed. You say that there was a big difference that Christ made.

Where we differ is what you say about the shadow of Christ that was in the OT. You seem to say
the shadow should not be looked at, and I say I should be.

No, I'm not saying the shadow should not be studied.

I am saying the NT does not allow the shadow to be practiced.

You know not to throw out Christ, but much of what you preach is to throw out God the Father instead.

You have me confused with someone else.

Christ was not a new, younger, more up to date God. Christ was from the beginning. The same principles that applied in BC also apply in AD. It was animal blood before, altho it is changed to Christ's blood, it is blood after. It was priests, before, and altho who the priests are changed, it is priests after.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "blood after."

Would you please explain?

 

[RedTent]

Elin;1255427]Thanks.


No, I'm not saying the shadow should not be studied.

I am saying the NT does not allow the shadow to be practiced.


You have me confused with someone else.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "blood after."

Would you please explain?[

/ You are just sort of repeating that we disagree. You say the shadow should not be practiced, and I say that if the shadow is a copy of the real thing but without the details filled in, then if you practice the real thing you are still practicing the shadow. Just not as completely. So I say it is profitable to look at the shadow, also.

It is the same with the blood. We are to use what came after the blood of animals, we would not use this blood when we have Christ's blood. Be silly to do. Scripture tells us not to do that. But, when we look at the outline or shadow of all the completed Christ did, it helps us understand Christ better. This as opposed to the direction to toss out the shadow because we have the more complete. As an example, when I studied all the sacrifices in the shadow, I better understood what the reality of Christ was about. Scripture tells us this. It tells us the OT is to be studied. It is to help us.

The NT verifies this. Much of the NT is quoting the OT. Christ says nothing of the law is changed, Christ just made it stricter for us for Christ said it also was to be obeyed in truth and in spirit. You can't possibly obey it in truth and spirit and not obey the letter, too. We are to obey, knowing that our obedience is not for our salvation. If we, of our own power, could make it work for that then we would be Gods. We aren't. God made that clear in the OT, too.

 

[Elin]

Don't touch = death. They were told to approach to the mountain but do not go up INTO the mountain; don't touch it.
Exodus 19:12 - And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about,

Why are you straining a gnat for this issue?

Boundaries are not to be crossed.
To "go nearer" would have been to cross those boundaries in disobedience.

Presenting their obedience as an example of failure in getting closer to God for deeper understanding is not straining a gnat, it's pointing out the camel you fail to see.

And how does "two stones" (tablets) alter the fact that Moses supplied them, which would make them ordinary stone, indicating the first copy was ordinary stone?

I use the bible that one reads in context.

Non-responsive.

I gave the verses where tassels were commanded in Scripture: Numbers 15:38

Thanks for the verse.

So what is the relevance of the Ten Commandments in blue stone, when the stone was broken, and the commandments were carved again? Are you saying Moses found sapphire for them to be carved in again?

Or, are you just pointing out the significance of the blue in the tassels?
It was also the color of the High Priest's robe, for the same reason, it represented our High Priest, Christ's heavenly origin.

Then over *that* white garment they'd wear a secondary garment something like the very first image I showed you,
with tassels at the four corners. That's why I put the images together for you.

The tassels in your image were all the way around the bottom of the robe, not just on the four corners.
That coupled with the other error confused me.

This woman KNEW from Malachi that there would be healing in his KANAPH/Tassels (Mal 4:2),

Okay, by grounding it in Scripture, you have brought me into agreement with you that the woman believed something about his clothing.

Thanks for hanging in there with me.
I'm sure there will be an extra star in your crown for doing so.

Scripture plainly says "SHE TOUCHED HIM" on purpose, and was scared because she knew she was breaking quarantine restrictions

So what did she touch, him or his clothing?

It's just better to stay with what is written.

By all means stay with what is written; don't venture any further...however, I have to dig deeper.

I'm all in favor of digging deeper into what is written.

Your digging deeper stayed with what was written and, therefore, I was able to accept it.

Thanks again.

 

[Elin]

You are just sort of repeating that we disagree. You say the shadow should not be practiced, and I say that if the shadow is a copy of the real thing but without the details filled in, then if you practice the real thing you are still practicing the shadow. Just not as completely.

WHO-O-O-A there, podna'!

The shadow is more complete than the reality?
You got that backwards.

The NT word of God states that to practice the shadows is to turn back. . .to weak, miserable
(Gal 4:8-11) and worldly principles (Gal 4:3-4; Col 2:8, 20).

The NT word of God states that practices not authorized by the NT are will-worship (Col 2:22-23, KJV).

You've got some serious reckoning to do with the NT word of God.

So I say it is profitable to look at the shadow, also.

As an example, when I studied all the sacrifices in the shadow, I better understood what the reality of Christ was about. Scripture tells us this. It tells us the OT is to be studied. It is to help us.

Studying and practicing are two different things.

You are advocating not only the study, but the practice also.

The NT verifies this. Much of the NT is quoting the OT. Christ says nothing of the law is changed,

Is all of the NT the word of God, or not?
Hebrews is very clear that there has been a change of the law (Heb 7:12, 18-19),
that God made drastic changes from the OT to the NT.

You've got some really serious reckoning to do with the NT, podna'.

Christ just made it stricter for us for Christ said it also was to be obeyed in truth and in spirit.

Christ said nothing about obeying the law in truth and in spirit.

You can't possibly obey it in truth and spirit and not obey the letter, too.

Irrelevant, because Christ did not tell us to obey the law in truth and spirit.

You are adding Christ to Judaism.
It don't work that way.

 

[JGIG]

I gave the verses where tassels were commanded in Scripture: Numbers 15:38

The tassels were commanded as reminders to follow the commandments of God, Elin.

By all means stay with what is written; don't venture any further...however, I have to dig deeper.

...to dig some more.

Dig this :

Tzit Tzit For the Believer In Christ?

The wearing of tzit tzit is another area for those in the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism/Netzarim streams of thought that becomes an outward expression of their attempts at Torah pursuance. The wearing of the fringes on the corners of their garments or from their belt loops becomes for them as necessary as observing a seventh-day Sabbath, appointed Feasts, and abiding by dietary laws. Some proudly display their fringes, while others tuck them in, pulling them out when going to gather with their fellowships.

What place (if any) for tzit tzit in the life of the believer in Christ?

Why the wearing of tzit tzit was commanded:



​

Numbers 15:37-41
37 The LORD said to Moses, 38 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel. 39 You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the LORD, that you may obey them and not prostitute yourselves by chasing after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes. 40 Then you will remember to obey all my commands and will be consecrated to your God. 41 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am the LORD your God.’”​

​

​

What strikes me as I read the Scripture passage above is that tzit tzit are much like an external ‘conscience’, hanging there as a constant reminder of the commandments of God. I can picture children fiddling with their tzit tzit, and in the back of their minds all the while understanding that those little fringes were there to remind them of God’s instructions . . .What purpose for the believer, though, who has the Law written on their heart?



​

Philippians 4:4-9
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.​

I find it so interesting that believers are exhorted to rejoice in the Lord, to not be anxious about anything, bring every situation to God in prayer and petition, and that we are promised peace beyond all understanding that guards our hearts and minds in Christ. These are all things that we, as believers in Christ can do in direct relationship with God with confidence - because we are in Christ.

The instruction that follows to the Body of Christ is not one of an external reminder of Law, but of an internal meditation of those things which are in line with righteousness.

In addition, as those who are New Creations in Christ, we have the seal of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who actively sanctifies us and leads us into righteousness (Galatians 5). God Himself is our very real and effective internal conscience.

This Scripture also comes to mind:



​

1 Timothy 1:3-11
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.​

As believers we are encouraged not to fiddle with fringes (no disrespect intended), but to actively think about “whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy”.

Another example is found in Romans 12:1-2:



​

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.​

Those in Christ depart from the Old Covenant way of offering dead sacrifices before God to being living sacrifices themselves. The physical shadow gives way to the spiritual reality (there’s a paradox for you!). And this is holy and acceptable to God!

Likewise, we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds as we offer ourselves up to Him, submit to Him, not conforming ourselves to the world, but thinking on things as described in Philippians 4. Then we will know the will of God!

The practice of wearing tzit tzit is not necessary in the life of one who is in Christ, as our conscience is now governed by His Holy Spirit Who indwells us - not by physical fringes that hang from our clothing.


​

Romans 13:14
14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.
​

​

It always strikes me how the physical shadows found in Torah fade away in the greater spiritual realities for those in Christ. That the commandment to wear tzit tzit and the reason for wearing them is now obsolete is just one more of those things.

May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.​

-JGIG

 

[Yahshua]

Boundaries are not to be crossed.
To "go nearer" would have been to cross those boundaries in disobedience.

Presenting their obedience as an example of failure in getting closer to God for deeper understanding is not straining a gnat, it's pointing out the camel you fail to see.

lol OK...I acknowledge the camel. On the surface you're right Elin. But here's the deeper meaning I was alluding to. Accept it or not...or ask me to prove it in scripture or not (it's 4am where I am so I'm just going to skip a few quotes for now so I can get to bed faster).

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EVERYTHING that happened to Israel was a living parable for our example (1 Corinthians 10:11)...everything. This is why God was so strict about everything they did, because he was giving us a prophetic picture. So if they didn't obey, the picture would be ruined. For instance, in the wilderness Moses striking the rock at Meribah *a second time* costs him entry into the promise land because the 1st rock struck prefigures Christ smitten for us...but Christ will NOT be crucified a second time for the living water to flow (he only needs to be spoken to), so Moses ruined the picture.

1. Now, Mt. Sinai shows there's a group of God's people who are not allowed to get any closer to God...because to attempt to do so, "one must die". Do you see what I'm saying here? If one attempts to ascend higher to God, one must die. However, the majority of the God's people *will not* die (to self) to get closer to God. This is true, as scripture can't be broken.

Notwithstanding, there is a smaller portion of God's people (i.e. "a tithe") who *will* successfully ascend the mountain of God; get closer. These people were allowed to touch the mountain, being granted an audience with God even though *no one* was allowed to touch the mountain. They ascend alive along with their savior. This means only "very few" will ascend alive in God's kingdom...and this is exactly what Christ says in Matthew 7:14:

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it

2. Mountains often represent "government" in scripture (Daniel 4), especially God's mountain. So this means only a few will govern/have authority in God's kingdom...the few who are able to get closer to God.

3. Meanwhile, the *majority* of God's people - those not allowed to touch the mountain - are busy at the base of the mountain worshiping God their own way because their savior delays his return.

Exodus 32:1

And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

Christ spoke of his servants failing in their watch when he delays his coming...and Paul also spoke of the falling away before Christ returns.

4. God's people then incorporated pagan traditions into their worship (taken from their past in bondage). They even made up their *own Holiday* to worship God...to worship the LORD himself (not some false god).

Exodus 32:5

And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD {Heb. YHWH}.

And if it wasn't for their savior's mediation, God would've destroyed his people swiftly because of this...but judgment was given to their savior so he'd judge them instead.

Exodus 32:9-11

9 The LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate/stubborn/stiff-necked people. 10 "Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.

Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, "O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?

Scripture can't be broken. This is the picture. This is what the majority of God's people have done, is doing, and will do.

5. Back to those higher up the mountain; "the few" (by comparison) are able to dined with God at his table. Revelation speaks of a marriage feast that not everyone will attend, because (as Christ spoke in his parable) the many that are "called" had better things to do.

6. Then fewer still were allowed even higher to hear from the voice of God himself; Moses & his aide. Fast-forward later a few more 40-day sessions and Moses is glowing because he was so close to God...the same results Peter, James and John saw when Christ came into his kingdom (the transfiguration)...the same reason why no Sunlight is required in New Jerusalem at the end of Revelation.

It is written (in revelation 7) that out of the Great Multitude who are covered by the blood (i.e. Mediated by Christ), only a few (by comparison) walk *with* the lamb wherever *he* goes. This was what I meant. I was alluding to the scene at Mt. Sinai as a prophetic parable of what scripture says will happen to God's people: few will get closer, receiving deeper understanding, while many will continue to worship God their own way...which would incur the wrath of God if it wasn't for our savior's mediation.

Thanks for the verse.

So what is the relevance of the Ten Commandments in blue stone, when the stone was broken, and the commandments were carved again? Are you saying Moses found sapphire for them to be carved in again?

Or, are you just pointing out the significance of the blue in the tassels?
It was also the color of the High Priest's robe, for the same reason, it represented our High Priest, Christ's heavenly origin.

Exactly Right, Christ's heavenly origin.

The significance of the Blue Stone **from heaven** carved by God is that it represented Christ who was from heaven and the embodiment of God's law...and like the blue stone was broken on account of the sin of God's people, so was Christ's body broken for us. The first pair of stone couldn't be from earth (per say) because the prophetic picture had to be perfect, since Christ wasn't from the earth. The commandments were carved again on "stone from the earth" by a man, as God dictated the law to him, to show that man (born from the earth) has to conform to Christ's exact image...which takes real effort on our part...but man has "the voice of God" (prefigure Holy Spirit) guiding him in carving out this image. This is why the second pair of stone MUST be from earth, because it represents us...and when that second pair is finally finished it was never broken (destroyed).

The tassels in your image were all the way around the bottom of the robe, not just on the four corners.
That coupled with the other error confused me.

I'm sorry, I tried to find the best images online but those were the close I could find.

Okay, by grounding it in Scripture, you have brought me into agreement with you that the woman believed something about his clothing.

Thanks for hanging in there with me.
I'm sure there will be an extra star in your crown for doing so.

YES!!

So what did she touch, him or his clothing?

Well it's like me grabbing you by your jacket. You could press charges of assault on me because I "touched you". Technically, I touched your jacket, not you...but your jacket was close on your person and so it was an extensions of you. Or better yet, if I spilled Coffee on your jacked while you were wearing it, you could say I spilled Coffee on you, though technically it was on your jacket.

Technically the woman touched Christ's tassel...woven into his outer garment that he was wearing...but this still means she "touched him" and should have been stoned either way.

 

[loveme1]

You are actually lying about a movement to listen to the entire scripture, the movement is to listen to all 66 books, and find how they are about the same God, the eternal God. You say God changed, that God is not the same one who wrote the law of Moses, and who sent His Son. God was the same in Numbers and in Galatians. They agree. You say they don't. That is not so. You are angry because these people use the feasts and rituals, not for salvation but to remember what God gave them for in the first place. Most of you don't even know why. You follow a man, you follow Constantine and what he said to do. They say that God is better to follow.

RedTent, I refute you calling me a liar and accusing me of things like that.

I know whom i serve and i know whom i follow and all by the Grace of GOD.

I'm often told i'm angry on these forums, and no i'm not angry.

But i'm disappointed by your "assuming", though i should be custom.

If i'm in error for my intent then GOD help me.

 

[loveme1]

Jeremiah 31

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

For instance, in the wilderness Moses striking the rock at Meribah *a second time* costs him entry into the promise land because the 1st rock struck prefigures Christ smitten for us...but Christ will NOT be crucified a second time for the living water to flow (he only needs to be spoken to), so Moses ruined the picture.

Moses made a mistake, but GOD knew exactly what he was doing. Moses represents the law; Joshua represents grace. Moses dying made him unable to lead the children of Israel into the promised land, just as the law is not able to lead GOD's children into the promises of GOD. Only grace and truth can do that, as only Joshua was able to lead Israel into the promised land. Through Christ the has law died, so to speak (actually we have died to the law), and we enter into the promises through grace and truth.

Moses' striking of the rock of Meribah twice symbolizes, IMO, those who crucify Christ again (and again) by reverting back to the law of Moses for justification. Their unbelief prevents them from entering into the promises.

 

[loveme1]

A question to any and all:

Would a book other than the Bible be considered a doctrine of man?

 

[Bookends]

A question to any and all:

Would a book other than the Bible be considered a doctrine of man?

Not necessarily, I could write about a doctrine of the bible although it's not my "made up" doctrine. I could write a doctrine of what I think the bible confirms by human error and faulty interpretation as well. It goes both ways.

 

[loveme1]

Not necessarily, I could write about a doctrine of the bible although it's not my "made up" doctrine. I could write a doctrine of what I think the bible confirms by human error and faulty interpretation as well. It goes both ways.

Thank you for your input.

 

[loveme1]

Friends, my intent was that we each know the true vine is the Messiah Yahshua.

He was an Hebrew and His words we should keep.

Friends, Abide in the Messiah Yahshua for without we can do nothing.







John 15

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

 

[Elin]

lol OK...I acknowledge the camel. On the surface you're right Elin. But here's the deeper meaning I was alluding to. Accept it or not...or ask me to prove it in scripture or not (it's 4am where I am so I'm just going to skip a few quotes for now so I can get to bed faster).

Thanks, but please don't go to all that trouble.

EVERYTHING that happened to Israel was a living parable for our example (1 Corinthians 10:11)...everything. This is why God was so strict about everything they did, because he was giving us a prophetic picture. So if they didn't obey, the picture would be ruined. For instance, in the wilderness Moses striking the rock at Meribah *a second time* costs him entry into the promise land because the 1st rock struck prefigures Christ smitten for us...but Christ will NOT be crucified a second time for the living water to flow (he only needs to be spoken to), so Moses ruined the picture.

1. Now, Mt. Sinai shows there's a group of God's people who are not allowed to get any closer to God...because to attempt to do so, "one must die". Do you see what I'm saying here? If one attempts to ascend higher to God, one must die. However, the majority of the God's people *will not* die (to self) to get closer to God. This is true, as scripture can't be broken.

But the elders who went up with Moses did not die in order to get closer to God.

Not only that, they did not die even when they saw God.

Notwithstanding, there is a smaller portion of God's people (i.e. "a tithe") who *will* successfully ascend the mountain of God; get closer. These people were allowed to touch the mountain, being granted an audience with God even though *no one* was allowed to touch the mountain. They ascend alive along with their savior. This means only "very few" will ascend alive in God's kingdom...and this is exactly what Christ says in Matthew 7:14:

But there was no death of them involved to get closer to God.

2. Mountains often represent "government" in scripture (Daniel 4), especially God's mountain. So this means only a few will govern/have authority in God's kingdom...the few who are able to get closer to God.

The are closer to God by his sovereign choice, not by earning it with death (to self).

3. Meanwhile, the *majority* of God's people - those not allowed to touch the mountain - are busy at the base of the mountain worshiping God their own way because their savior delays his return.
Exodus 32:1

The NT does not present God as having two peoples, one faithful, and one not.

The NT presents true faith which saves, and counterfeit faith which does not save (Mt 7:21-23),
but both groups profess faith, while one group does not really have it, and are not the redeemed of God.

God chose the nation Israel, but not all for salvation, only all for his purpose (Ro 9:11).
All may have professed faith in God, but all did not possess true (obedient) faith in God,
and were not the redeemed.

Christ spoke of his servants failing in their watch when he delays his coming...and Paul also spoke of the falling away before Christ returns.

Servants are not sons.
Those who were not ready had the door shut on them and entrance to the kingdom denied to them.
Those who fall away were never, and are not, the redeemed, which is proven by their falling away
(1Jn 2:19).

4. God's people then incorporated pagan traditions into their worship (taken from their past in bondage). They even made up their *own Holiday* to worship God...to worship the LORD himself (not some false god). Exodus 32:5

And if it wasn't for their savior's mediation, God would've destroyed his people swiftly because of this...but judgment was given to their savior so he'd judge them instead. Exodus 32:9-11

Your analogy is really beginning to deviate from the NT word of God.

Moses was not, and never was, their savior, he was the mediator between them and God,
who interceded for them.
Only God in Christ Jesus is their Savior.

This is why distinctions between such things as savior, mediator and administrator are so important.
These titles have offices and functions.
To incorrectly use these titles is to incorrectly assign functions, as in making Moses their Savior.

Scripture can't be broken. This is the picture. This is what the majority of God's people have done, is doing, and will do.

I'm having problems making your picture fit into the NT word of God written.

5. Back to those higher up the mountain; "the few" (by comparison) are able to dined with God at his table. Revelation speaks of a marriage feast that not everyone will attend, because (as Christ spoke in his parable) the many that are "called" had better things to do.

That is the gospel call, which separates the elect from the non-elect,
not the devout from the worldly among the redeemed.

6. Then fewer still were allowed even higher to hear from the voice of God himself; Moses & his aide. Fast-forward later a few more 40-day sessions and Moses is glowing because he was so close to God...the same results Peter, James and John saw when Christ came into his kingdom (the transfiguration)...the same reason why no Sunlight is required in New Jerusalem at the end of Revelation.

Moses glowed as the result of being with God.
Peter, James and John did not glow.

It is written (in revelation 7) that out of the Great Multitude who are covered by the blood (i.e. Mediated by Christ), only a few (by comparison) walk *with* the lamb wherever *he* goes. This was what I meant.

Okay, any interpretation of unfulfilled symbolic prophetic riddles is necessarily uncertain.
Only interpretation of fulfilled symbolic prophetic riddles is certain, as in Dan.

But one thing we can know about the meaning of any unfulfilled symbolic prophetic riddle.
It will always agree with the NT word of God written.

Now having stated the Biblical principle, do you mean Rev 14?
I find no indication there that only a few covered by the blood follow the Lamb where he goes.

Revelation is highly symbolic (e.g., chps 12, 13, 17), and I find the numbers therein to be likewise.
The number of completion (12, X 12,000) is symbolically assigned to those redeemed (Rev 14:13) in
the blood of the Lamb, while the others (Rev 14:14-20) are the unredeemed.
The redeemed follow the Lamb, the unredeemed do not.

I was alluding to the scene at Mt. Sinai as a prophetic parable of what scripture says will happen to God's people: few will get closer, receiving deeper understanding, while many will continue to worship God their own way...which would incur the wrath of God if it wasn't for our savior's mediation.

That is just not stacking up with the NT word of God for me.

I find nothing in the NT that warrants two different peoples of God, the elite and the common.
The NT everywhere states that only the faithful have true saving faith and are redeemed,
while the unfaithful were never redeemed (e.g., Mt 7:21-23).

 

[Elin]

A question to any and all:

Would a book other than the Bible be considered a doctrine of man?

Not if it is consistent with the Bible.

 

[crossnote]

The middle road...

1 Corinthians 10:1-15 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.