the deity of Jesus

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StraightPath

StraightPath

Banned
#141
May 18, 2010
142
0
0
#141
Credo_ut_Intelligam said:
I already answered this objection in an earlier post. The idea that a 1st century Jew would have used God's name in such a cavalier manner is reading 21st century idioms into 1st century Judaism. Using God's name in such a way would have most likely been considered blasphemy by them.
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A lot of what Jesus spoke was considered blasphemy by the Jews. but he did Spoke these things.

as for Thomas, when he said ''My Lord my God'' in disbelief ... there was no Jew around
 
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livingbygrace

Banned
#142
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#142
The Jews had read the book of Isiah hadn't they? Were they expecting God himself to come as their Messiah? And if not, why not?

Because the Jewish people I have spoken to said the Jews were not expecting God Himself to come as their Messiah. Didn't they uinderstand scripture either?
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#143
#143
livingbygrace said:
I don't follow your economic and ontological line, I would have problems if I did, as you have now, but are unable to admit.

You like to try and reason everything out to fit your preconceived ideas. I simplyt accept the plain statements as written. I know man in his wisdom is quite prepared to contradict the plainest of statements in the Bible. But mans own natural wisdom is his downfall with God.
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The concepts are valid concepts, whether you want to recognize them or not. For example, I am a human that's who I am, it's part of my essence and my being. Do you think that is a valid category?

If humanity (or humanness) is a valid category, then what are you objecting to? Do you simply dislike the term "ontology"? I'd be happy to use different terms if that's the case.

I also have a job. That's what I do. It's how I function. I have a boss. He is my superior. He isn't my superior in that his essence or his nature is superior to mine. He is superior to me only in that he has authority over what I do, how I function.

Is functioning a valid category? Is it possible to have the category of ruler and/or servant? If those are valid categories, then what are you objecting to? Do you simply dislike the term "economy"? If so, we can use a different term here too.

Now, 1 Corinthians speaks of Jesus being ruler. That's a function. Do you agree?
 
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angelos

Guest
#144
#144
StraightPath said:
A lot of what Jesus spoke was considered blasphemy by the Jews. but he did Spoke these things.

as for Thomas, when he said ''My Lord my God'' in disbelief ... there was no Jew around
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Thomas was a jew all early believers were jews
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#145
#145
StraightPath said:
A lot of what Jesus spoke was considered blasphemy by the Jews. but he did Spoke these things.

as for Thomas, when he said ''My Lord my God'' in disbelief ... there was no Jew around
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Thats incoherent. The fact that Jesus did things that considered blasphemous doesn't justify our believing that the disciples would have just started to doing things that were normally considered blasphemous.

For example, Matthew refers to the kingdom of God as the kingdom of Heaven. Why? Because the Jews were *very* reluctant to use the name of God. It was an idiom, to be safe. But on your theory, Matthew should have just started saying stuff like "Oh my God, yall!! LOLZ..." This seems absurd to me.

as for Thomas, when he said ''My Lord my God'' in disbelief ... there was no Jew around
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Thomas was a Jew.

(By the way, those blasphemous things Jesus did, were related to his claim to be equal with God. Jesus never did things that were considered blasphemous like treat God in a cavalier manner. But that's what you would need in order for your argument to work.)
 
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livingbygrace

Banned
#148
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#148
Credo_ut_Intelligam said:
The concepts are valid concepts, whether you want to recognize them or not. For example, I am a human that's who I am, it's part of my essence and my being. Do you think that is a valid category?

If humanity (or humanness) is a valid category, then what are you objecting to? Do you simply dislike the term "ontology"? I'd be happy to use different terms if that's the case.

I also have a job. That's what I do. It's how I function. I have a boss. He is my superior. He isn't my superior in that his essence or his nature is superior to mine. He is superior to me only in that he has authority over what I do, how I function.

Is functioning a valid category? Is it possible to have the category of ruler and/or servant? If those are valid categories, then what are you objecting to? Do you simply dislike the term "economy"? If so, we can use a different term here too.

Now, 1 Corinthians speaks of Jesus being ruler. That's a function. Do you agree?
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I woulde simply refer you to the scripture I have ceaselessly quoted. Human resoning and wisdom is cnot adventageous for the Christian in spiritual matters

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
The intelligence of the inrtelligent I will frustrate
Where iss the wise man
Where is the scholar?
Where is the philosopher of this age?
Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believed. 1Cor119-21



For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. 1Cor3:19
 
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angelos

Guest
#149
#149
livingbygrace said:
I woulde simply refer you to the scripture I have ceaselessly quoted. Human resoning and wisdom is cnot adventageous for the Christian in spiritual matters

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
The intelligence of the inrtelligent I will frustrate
Where iss the wise man
Where is the scholar?
Where is the philosopher of this age?
Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believed. 1Cor119-21



For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. 1Cor3:19
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that can apply back to you as well
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#150
#150
StraightPath said:
but Thomas was a disciple of Jesus ! not a disciple of a rabbi
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That's irrelevant. As I already demonstrated with Matthew's use of the term Kingdom of Heaven, Jesus' disciples were still extremely Jewish in their thoughts and actions. They still went to synagogue, still went to the Temple, still made vows (Paul).

So again, your argument wont work.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#152
#152
livingbygrace said:
I woulde simply refer you to the scripture I have ceaselessly quoted. Human resoning and wisdom is cnot adventageous for the Christian in spiritual matters

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
The intelligence of the inrtelligent I will frustrate
Where iss the wise man
Where is the scholar?
Where is the philosopher of this age?
Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believed. 1Cor119-21



For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. 1Cor3:19
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Unfortunately, you won't be able to dodge this one again. You see, Scripture employs the concept of humanity. Thats an ontological concept. So either Scripture is simply parroting human wisdom or else you have to give up your claim that ontological categories are "human wisdom" (and thereby, for some odd reason, automatically invalid).

(But I am curious, does this mean you don't believe there is such a thing as the human race?)
 
StraightPath

StraightPath

Banned
#153
May 18, 2010
142
0
0
#153
Credo_ut_Intelligam said:
That's irrelevant. As I already demonstrated with Matthew's use of the term Kingdom of Heaven, Jesus' disciples were still extremely Jewish in their thoughts and actions. They still went to synagogue, still went to the Temple, still made vows (Paul).

So again, your argument wont work.
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Then what is your interpretation,
Why Thomas had to touch the hand of Jesus in order to say '' My lord my God '' ?
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#155
#155
StraightPath said:
Then what is your interpretation,
Why Thomas had to touch the hand of Jesus in order to say '' My lord my God '' ?
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That's the moment at which he came to believe Jesus was his Lord and his God.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#159
#159
StraightPath said:
Why Thomas had to touch the hands of Jesus in order to say '' My lord my God '' ?

you didn`t answer the question.
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Well technically your question had two parts: (1) What's your interpretation? and (2) Why did Thomas have to touch his hands first.

The second part of your question seems irrelevant to me, so I just answered the first part.

But if you really want an answer to the second part then here it is:

Because Thomas didn't believe he was seeing a physically resurrected Jesus. The Jewish concept of resurrection was that it would only physically occur at the end of the world when *everyone* was resurrected. So if a Jew heard "Jesus was physically raised from the dead!" they would have been extremely skeptical. And they all were extremely skeptical. If you look closely at the resurrection narratives in the gospels you will see that virtually everyone (all the disciples) didn't believe that Jesus had been raised when they first heard about it.

Why did it cause the specific belief that Jesus is God? Because Jesus had previously claimed to be God and the resurrection vindicated his claims. Not sure why this matters in the context of our discussion.
 
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