the deity of Jesus

[Shwagga]

Could you clarify my point please concerning the economic and ontological Trinity

Sorry, I am trying to understand your point of view.. I don't see why my beliefs are needed. I just want to see what you believe and why. So do you believe in the Father is a different or greater God then the Son, God?

What I mean is, before you want me to argue my position I at least want to understand your's first. I hope you can understand! Thanks bro.

 

[livingbygrace]

I believe he is part of the one true God

Well in 1Cor8:6 Paul is clear, only God the Father is our God, he mentions Christ seperately. Paul is clear as well in 1Cor15:14-28

Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God Himself

And Jesus is clear in John17:3

 

[livingbygrace]

Sorry, I am trying to understand your point of view.. I don't see why my beliefs are needed. I just want to see what you believe and why. So do you believe in the Father is a different or greater God then the Son, God?

What I mean is, before you want me to argue my position I at least want to understand your's first. I hope you can understand! Thanks bro.

I am happy to answer peoples questions and have answered yours, but I do like to feel it is reciprocated. I do mean this respectfully. Is there a problem with answering the question?

I will then be only too happy to answer yours

I am not asking you to argue a position, simply to tell me what you think, only to me I don't see how it can tally up so would like your opinion

 

[angelos]

Well in 1Cor8:6 Paul is clear, only God the Father is our God, he mentions Christ seperately. Paul is clear as well in 1Cor15:14-28

Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God Himself

And Jesus is clear in John17:3

and Paul also calls Jesus the visible image of the invisible God in collosians. The gospel writer John calls Jesus god in the very first verse in his gospel. So later in that same verse you are using Christ is called the one Lord so I msut ask is the father not our one Lord?

 

[Shwagga]

I am happy to answer peoples questions and have answered yours, but I do like to feel it is reciprocated. I do mean this respectfully. Is there a problem with answering the question?

I will then be only too happy to answer yours

I believe Yeshua is God, the Father is God and that the Holy Spirit (Ruach haKadosh) is God.. Now, God is complex in unity and God is echad.

So, those three persons are who make up who God is. And God is only one in being and eternal. There is no other God there is no weaker God or greater God. Your problem is understanding the "kenosis" of the Messiah, I believe.

I hope that answers your question bro.

 

[livingbygrace]

and Paul also calls Jesus the visible image of the invisible God in collosians. The gospel writer John calls Jesus god in the very first verse in his gospel. So later in that same verse you are using Christ is called the one Lord so I msut ask is the father not our one Lord?

You are going round in circles. This is getting nowhere. Once more God refered to Jesus as God, but still said he was Jesus God. Heb1:9. So why do you keep asking me about John1:1

 

[livingbygrace]

I believe Yeshua is God, the Father is God and that the Holy Spirit (Ruach haKadosh) is God.. Now, God is complex in unity and God is echad.

So, those three persons are who make up who God is. And God is only one in being and eternal. There is no other God there is no weaker God or greater God. Your problem is understanding the "kenosis" of the Messiah, I believe.

I hope that answers your question bro.

Do you believe in the economic and ontological Trinity?

 

[Shwagga]

Do you believe in the economic and ontological Trinity?

I don't know what that means.

 

[angelos]

You are going round in circles. This is getting nowhere. Once more God refered to Jesus as God, but still said he was Jesus God. Heb1:9. So why do you keep asking me about John1:1

Well in hebrews 1:9 refers to the human nature of Jesus as after all he was man and human's are subject to God but he is also deity being of the same essence of and is YHWH in the ontological sense

 

[angelos]

I don't know what that means.

ontological refers to the essence and economic refers to their roles such as we are both human(ontological) but I'm a fisherman and your a cook ( economic)

 

[livingbygrace]

m

Well in hebrews 1:9 refers to the human nature of Jesus as after all he was man and human's are subject to God but he is also deity being of the same essence of and is YHWH in the ontological sense

So Heb1:9 refers to the human nature of Jesus

Well once Jesus had returned to Heaven he was not in human form, was he, so that would not apply

Him who overcomes I will make as pillar ion the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God the new Jerusalem that will come down oput of Heaven from my God Rev3:12

 

[Shwagga]

ontological refers to the essence and economic refers to their roles such as we are both human(ontological) but I'm a fisherman and your a cook ( economic)

Ahh, okay thanks man..

Well I believe the Father has a specific role, the Son has a specific role and so does the Holy Spirit. I believe they are one being as far as essence goes, but now when we look at the incarnation and the emptying of the Son, we have to understand that He came to Earth as a human 100% and not God. (Hence the emptying of His godliness)..

IE...
Php 2 (NKJV)
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

The "Made Himself of no reputation" is one word in Greek, "Kenosis" which literally means emptying. Emptying of what? Emptying of His Godly nature. This is only while He was on Earth though, not while He is in heaven.(If you read the rest of the passage, you'll see what I mean).

 

[livingbygrace]

Ahh, okay thanks man..

Well I believe the Father has a specific role, the Son has a specific role and so does the Holy Spirit. I believe they are one being as far as essence goes, but now when we look at the incarnation and the emptying of the Son, we have to understand that He came to Earth as a human 100% and not God. (Hence the emptying of His godliness)..

IE...
Php 2 (NKJV)
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

The "Made Himself of no reputation" is one word in Greek, "Kenosis" which literally means emptying. Emptying of what? Emptying of His Godly nature.

OK

I think I see where you are coming from, thank you. I do believe the Father is greater than the son, and the one true God as I explained in the scripture verses to you.

1Cor15:24-28

John17:3

1Cor8:6

Also

John10:29

John14:28

If I understand you correctly, you believe Christ only ceased to be God while he was ion this earth; but Paul says that Christ will become subject to the Father once all dominion, authority and power has been defeated. This has not yet happened and will take place when Christ is in Heaven, nott on earth. And I havce just quoted Rev3:12 to Angelos. Christ refers to the Father as 'My God' four times. He is not on earth now but in Heaven

 

[Shwagga]

OK

I think I see where you are coming from, thank you. I do believe the Father is greater than the son, and the one true God as I explained in the scripture verses to you.

1Cor15:24-28

John17:3

1Cor8:6

Also

John10:29

John14:28

If I understand you correctly, you believe Christ only ceased to be God while he was ion this earth; but Paul says that Christ will become subject to the Father once all dominion, authority and power has been defeated. This has not yet happened and will take place when Christ is in Heaven, nott on earth. And I havce just quoted Rev3:12 to Angelos. Christ refers to the Father as 'My God' four times. He is not on earth now but in Heaven

Okay yeah, I see your confusion. You are quoting some verses while Yeshua was on Earth and some verses that are easily misunderstood with that position. Do you understand verses like John 17:5, when Yeshua says to the Father "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

This is an example of what I am talking about, this is the emptied out Son (emptied of Godly nature) and referencing His Godly nature (before). So you have to understand when Yeshua receives His glory that is when He gains the nature back, the difference between the Father and the Son currently is the Son is in human form but fully God.

In example:

Isaiah 44:
6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
‘ I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Revelation 1:
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

We know this IS Yeshua speaking because the Father never died, so Yeshua claims to be the First and the Last, which I am sure you would agree with - making Yeshua the LORD.( or the unpronounceable name "YHWH or YHVH")

 

[livingbygrace]

Okay yeah, I see your confusion. You are quoting some verses while Yeshua was on Earth and some verses that are easily misunderstood with that position. Do you understand verses like John 17:5, when Yeshua says to the Father "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

This is an example of what I am talking about, this is the emptied out Son (emptied of Godly nature) and referencing His Godly nature (before). So you have to understand when Yeshua receives His glory that is when He gains the nature back, the difference between the Father and the Son currently is the Son is in human form but fully God.

In example:

Isaiah 44:
6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
‘ I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Revelation 1:
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

We know this IS Yeshua speaking because the Father never died, so Yeshua claims to be the First and the Last, which I am sure you would agree with - making Yeshua the LORD.( or the unpronounceable name "YHWH or YHVH")

To make it simple, in relation to OT scripture, Paul would have known that better than either of us. Could i ask you once again to read 1Cor15:24-28. Paul is clear

When it says that everything has been put under him it is clear that this does not include God Himself who put everything under Christ.
Paul is speaking concerning once Christ had returned to Heaven. So to Paul being fully aware of OT scripture, he still believed God the Father was the only true God.

In relation to Revelation, Christ specifically refered to God as 'my God' four times in one verse, that is quite plain to me

 

[Shwagga]

To make it simple, in relation to OT scripture, Paul would have known that better than either of us. Could i ask you once again to read 1Cor15:24-28. Paul is clear

When it says that everything has been put under him it is clear that this does not include God Himself who put everything under Christ.
Paul is speaking concerning once Christ had returned to Heaven. So to Paul being fully aware of OT scripture, he still believed God the Father was the only true God.

In relation to Revelation, Christ specifically refered to God as 'my God' four times in one verse, that is quite plain to me

I really don't understand what you are trying to argue,I just have a few questions for you please.. Do you worship Yeshua? Do you pray to Yeshua and is the Son the one true God?

 

[livingbygrace]

I really don't understand what you are trying to argue,I just have a few questions for you please.. Do you worship Yeshua? Is the Son, the one true God?

The Father is the one true God as Christ explained in John17:3
As Paiul explained in 1Cor8:6
and again in 1Cor15:24-28

Christ is the Son of God. It was what he always claimed to be.

Do you accept that Paul believed God the Father was the only true God according to 1Cor15:24-28, and 1Cor8:6?

 

[Shwagga]

The Father is the one true God as Christ explained in John17:3
As Paiul explained in 1Cor8:6
and again in 1Cor15:24-28

Christ is the Son of God. It was what he always claimed to be.

Do you accept that Paul believed God the Father was the only true God according to 1Cor15:24-28, and 1Cor8:6?

Can you answer my questions please? BTW idolatry is any worship that goes to anything or anyone OTHER than the one true God. So, that would mean unless you believe Yeshua is the one true God you would not be able to do this:

Matthew 15:25
Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I believe that Jesus was not less than God in power or nature, for God cannot be less than God. I believe there is an eternal relationship by which the Son is in submission to the Father, thus Jesus can refer to the Father as His God. I also believe that Jesus laid aside only the separable characteristics of diety, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, etc. What was not separated was the essential aspects of diety. God is light. God is love. god is holy, etc. And so it can be said that during the incarnation, Jesus was fully man and fully God.

 

[livingbygrace]

Can you answer my questions please? BTW idolatry is any worship that goes to anything or anyone OTHER than the one true God. So, that would mean unless you believe Yeshua is the one true God you would not be able to do this:

Matthew 15:25
Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

Well you haven't answered my lasrt two questrions, be fair.

To him who sits on the throne and to the lamb
be praise and honour and glory and power
forever and ever
The four living creatures said 'Amen, and the elders fell down and worshipped. Rev5:13&14

Jesus was being worshipped alongside his Father here.

The Bible says the Father is the one true God. These are plain statements. I have given you the scriptures where Paul plainly says this along with Jesus also.

Are you saying we cannot pray to the Father?