The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

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GaryA

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I tried to line up in a time frame the vials, seals and trumpets with certain events but I was not successful. I ended up just confusing myself. LOL
I am not sure what the 'certain events' are that you are referring to; however, I have "aligned" the seals, trumpets, and vials with some other things without confusion. Please take a look at the 'Study' section of my website and let me know what you think.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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TheDivineWatermark said: ^ [also] 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" at the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" [earthly] TIME PERIOD (involving both JUDGMENTs [duration of time] and eventually BLESSINGs [duration of time]--a lengthy duration of time, altogether--ALL "earthly-located")

[so 2Th2:2-3 (and context) also concerns that Subject]
I'm not sure what you "don't see" but let me ask you a couple questions:

--do you ever try to compare what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse [the Subject Paul is also covering] with that of what Paul is talking about (esp here in 1 & 2 Thess)? I know many ppl do... but they fail to see this "earlier connecting point" and only see the "mid-trib connecting point [Matt24:15 & 2Th2:4]"

--will be back with my other Q in a few... (in the meantime, plz see my last cpl of posts, related to this. Thx!)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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We see the birth pangs now I believe. And have been for the last few decades.
"The beginning of birth PANGS" are entirely within the time period known as "the Day of the Lord" (and not before).

We can even see that in the context of the passage that "tanakh" used, Isaiah 13 -


6 Wail, for the Day of the LORD is near;

it will come as destruction from the Almighty.a

7 Therefore all hands will fall limp,

and every man’s heart will melt.

8 Terror, pain, and anguish will seize them;

they will writhe like a woman in labor.

They will look at one another,

their faces flushed with fear.

9 Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—

cruel, with fury and burning anger—

to make the earth a desolation

and to destroy the sinners within it.

10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations

will not give their light.

The rising sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light.

11 I will punish the world for its evil

and the wicked for their iniquity.

I will end the haughtiness of the arrogant

and lay low the pride of the ruthless.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,

and mankind rarer than the gold of Ophir.



[I mentioned that "the beginning of birth PANGS" is EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6... and that Rev1:1 (parallel the wording of 1:19c & 4:1) says "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." i.e. NOT things which would transpire over the course of some 2000 yrs, and NOT things which would transpire at the same time as "the things WHICH ARE" (which is instead very lengthy! something like near-2000 yrs!)]
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I'm not sure what you "don't see" but let me ask you a couple questions:

--do you ever try to compare what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse [the Subject Paul is also covering] with that of what Paul is talking about (esp here in 1 & 2 Thess)? I know many ppl do... but they fail to see this "earlier connecting point" and only see the "mid-trib connecting point [Matt24:15 & 2Th2:4]"

--will be back with my other Q in a few... (in the meantime, plz see my last cpl of posts, related to this. Thx!)
The initial birth pang

this is the part I do not see

jesus never mentioned initial birth pangs, he mentioned numerous events which he said would like birth pangs get exponentially worse. Things like natural disasters, disease, hunger

again we have been witnessing this for a few decades now
 
Mar 14, 2011
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"The beginning of birth PANGS" are entirely within the time period known as "the Day of the Lord" (and not before).

We can even see that in the context of the passage that "tanakh" used, Isaiah 13 -


6 Wail, for the Day of the LORD is near;

it will come as destruction from the Almighty.a

7 Therefore all hands will fall limp,

and every man’s heart will melt.

8 Terror, pain, and anguish will seize them;

they will writhe like a woman in labor.

They will look at one another,

their faces flushed with fear.

9 Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—

cruel, with fury and burning anger—

to make the earth a desolation

and to destroy the sinners within it.

10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations

will not give their light.

The rising sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light.

11 I will punish the world for its evil

and the wicked for their iniquity.

I will end the haughtiness of the arrogant

and lay low the pride of the ruthless.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,

and mankind rarer than the gold of Ophir.



[I mentioned that "the beginning of birth PANGS" is EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6... and that Rev1:1 (parallel the wording of 1:19c & 4:1) says "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." i.e. NOT things which would transpire over the course of some 2000 yrs, and NOT things which would transpire at the same time as "the things WHICH ARE" (which is instead very lengthy! something like near-2000 yrs!)]
Again I disagree. See no correlation

jesus said you will see events, and these events. like when you see buds appear on trees, you know spring us near, when you see these events taking place, you know something is near.but as Jesus said, it is not here yet.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Again I disagree. See no correlation

jesus said you will see events, and these events. like when you see buds appear on trees, you know spring us near, when you see these events taking place, you know something is near.but as Jesus said, it is not here yet.
Okay, so the "it" ^ [see v.33's "when ye shall see... know that it is near, even at the doors"] is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth [i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19], FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, per context (not "our Rapture," which is not the Subject Jesus is covering in His Olivet Discourse).


[and the "you" of the Olivet Discourse is a "consistent 'you'" and a "proleptic 'you'"... meaning, "all those in the future, of the same category"... and in this CONTEXT, it is, "those to whom the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" WAS PROMISED]


So, Jesus spoke of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"; and

Paul pointed out the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" (of those MANY BPs Jesus spoke of) which kicks off that [future] time period.
 

Jackson123

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b would be difficult to believe. and even harder to find biblical support
This is biblical SUPPORT for option B
2 Thessalonians 2 New International Version (NIV)
The Man of Lawlessness
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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So, Jesus spoke of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"; and

Paul pointed out the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" (of those MANY BPs Jesus spoke of) which kicks off that [future] time period.
EDIT to add (for clarity): ... "which kicks off that [future] time period which LEADS UP TO His Second Coming to the earth [at Rev19].



Paul refers to the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR - same word Jesus used in the PLURAL]"

...that which "COMES UPON a woman with child"... it is not a stand-alone "birth PANG"... (that's not how they work)... it (the INITIAL one) is followed by many MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus went on to speak of further, in His saying "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Okay, so the "it" ^ [see v.33's "when ye shall see... know that it is near, even at the doors"] is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth [i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19], FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, per context (not "our Rapture," which is not the Subject Jesus is covering in His Olivet Discourse).


[and the "you" of the Olivet Discourse is a "consistent 'you'" and a "proleptic 'you'"... meaning, "all those in the future, of the same category"... and in this CONTEXT, it is, "those to whom the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" WAS PROMISED]


So, Jesus spoke of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"; and

Paul pointed out the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" (of those MANY BPs Jesus spoke of) which kicks off that [future] time period.
The olivet discourse answered three things

When will the temple be destroyed

what is the sign of your coming

sign of the end of the age

the birth pangs just show the season is approaching, what is the season? to,them the last 7 weeks of daniels prophecy.

that is the end of the age spoken of. or the “IT”

it is the 7 years, not the end.


birth pangs literally means something that increases in frequency and strength

when a lady starts contractions, they are usually light and far apart. As labor progresses. They exponentially get stronger and closer together. Until the end when the actual birth takes place. which is something us men can not even begin to fathom, think of it as a pain greater than any pain.

then think Jesus said great tribulation, greater than ever before or after. There is your birth. The birth pangs lead up to that event.

trying fit that into 3.5 years is unfathonable. That’s why I continue to say I can’t see it

 
Mar 14, 2011
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This is biblical SUPPORT for option B
2 Thessalonians 2 New International Version (NIV)
The Man of Lawlessness
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Yep

the birth pangs tell us we are close to this event. Your talking about years of things getting exponentially stronger and closer together

look at just earthquakes in the past 50 years, we see then getting exponentially stronger in power and happening more often.

same with disease, we had the virus what ten years ago,that scared everyone, yet the virus today comming out of China is far worse.

birth pangs..
 
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EDIT to add (for clarity): ... "which kicks off that [future] time period which LEADS UP TO His Second Coming to the earth [at Rev19].



Paul refers to the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR - same word Jesus used in the PLURAL]"

...that which "COMES UPON a woman with child"... it is not a stand-alone "birth PANG"... (that's not how they work)... it (the INITIAL one) is followed by many MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus went on to speak of further, in His saying "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"
There is no initial, birth pang

jesus did not say when you see this initial birth pane be watchfull for all these other birth pangs will take place.

thats one point of our disagreement
 

TheDivineWatermark

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There is no initial, birth pang

jesus did not say when you see this initial birth pane be watchfull for all these other birth pangs will take place.

thats one point of our disagreement
The beginning of birth PANGS come as a set... They don't start as a "PILE" of "PLURALS" (at once)...

Jesus tells of the FIRST one in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 :

"G5100 - tis 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (i.e. 'A CERTAIN ONE' bringing deception).

That is (or should I say, this "A CERTAIN ONE") the INITIAL BP of many MORE that follow on from THAT ONE
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ SEE this post also (to go along with that ^ ) :

https://christianchat.com/threads/rapture-top-dogs-admit-no-proof-exists.190008/post-4156023

Post #158 (page 8... of the "Top Dogs" thread)

[quoting that post]

[...] in past posts I've endeavored to point out how the 7-yrs is consistently shown in its three parts (namely, as in, its "BEGINNING," its "MIDDLE," and its "END") in quite a number of places:

--Rev6:2... Rev13:1-7... Rev19

--Dan9:27a[/26b]... Dan9:27b... Dan9:27c

--2Th2:9a/8a/3b[/1Th5:2-3]... 2Th2:4... 2Th2:8b

--Matt24:4/Mk13:5... Matt24:15... Matt24:29-31[/Isa27:12-13]


[other verses of course...]


[end quoting that post]
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The beginning of birth PANGS come as a set... They don't start as a "PILE" of "PLURALS" (at once)...

Jesus tells of the FIRST one in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 :

"G5100 - tis 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (i.e. 'A CERTAIN ONE' bringing deception).

That is (or should I say, this "A CERTAIN ONE") the INITIAL BP of many MORE that follow on from THAT ONE
matt 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.

mark 13: 5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you



let no one decieve you, for many will come in my name. as seen in the following verses


Matt 24: 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

these “many” are included in the ones who decieve

its not one, there is no initial birth pang, they are all part of the group of events included in the birth pangs

6 And you will hear ofwars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, [b]pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.(birth pangs)

all these. Includes the many will come to decieve!

there is no initial birth pang, I do not know where you came up with this idea, it I do not see it there
 
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^ SEE this post also (to go along with that ^ ) :

https://christianchat.com/threads/rapture-top-dogs-admit-no-proof-exists.190008/post-4156023

Post #158 (page 8... of the "Top Dogs" thread)

[quoting that post]

[...] in past posts I've endeavored to point out how the 7-yrs is consistently shown in its three parts (namely, as in, its "BEGINNING," its "MIDDLE," and its "END") in quite a number of places:

--Rev6:2... Rev13:1-7... Rev19

--Dan9:27a[/26b]... Dan9:27b... Dan9:27c

--2Th2:9a/8a/3b[/1Th5:2-3]... 2Th2:4... 2Th2:8b

--Matt24:4/Mk13:5... Matt24:15... Matt24:29-31[/Isa27:12-13]


[other verses of course...]


[end quoting that post]
or just read the passage As I have just done in my last post,

non of those help, I still can not see it that way
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I am just reading it...

In the Greek, the word Jesus used can legitimately be translated "A CERTAIN ONE" (and fairly is, in other verses where used).



Again...
Jesus tells of the FIRST one in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 :

"G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"


[one translation even says, in Mk13:5, "Take heed lest A MAN shall. lead you astray" which fits with the definition of "A CERTAIN ONE". In a completely different verse, the word is translated "Someone" i.e. a particular person.]
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I am just reading it...

In the Greek, the word Jesus used can legitimately be translated "A CERTAIN ONE" (and fairly is, in other verses where used).



Again...
Jesus tells of the FIRST one in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 :

"G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"


[one translation even says, in Mk13:5, "Take heed lest A MAN shall. lead you astray" which fits with the definition of "A CERTAIN ONE". In a completely different verse, the word is translated "Someone" i.e. a particular person.]
Yes it CAN

it does not mean it will

again, the context tells us,

for many will come in my name and will decieve many

same greek word.. not one, many

context has to be taken into account,
 

TheLearner

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The story of the development of pre-tribulationism as we know it ...
temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual
The actual revelation is recorded here:

"
APPENDIX A, "MARGARET'S REVELATION"
"Margaret's Revelation," as mentioned earlier, was first published in Robert Norton's
Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176.
Norton published it again in the The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the
Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. The revelation shown here is as it
appears in Norton's 1840 book, as follows:

1 "It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon
2 me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very
3 great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to
4 drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.' I repeated the
5 words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas
6 and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear—now
7 look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop
8 and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of man
9 is; the people of God think they are waiting, but thy know not
10 what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great
11 darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me
12 with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending
13 from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but
14 that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that
15 they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I
16 saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen be
17 the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye
18 of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in
19 which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom
20 of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the
21 Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took
22 their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise
23 took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise,
24 but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk
25 with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was
26 the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels—this is the light to be
27 kept burning—the light of God—that we may discern that which
28 cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have
29 the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No
30 need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall
31 be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ
32 in us that will lift us up—he is the light—'tis only those that are
33 alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw
34 that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things.
35 John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven.—But I
36 saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been
37 known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and
38 shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body,
39 and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be
40 counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and
41 which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the
42 glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this
43 earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the
44 bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she
45 must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now
46 shall the people of God have to do with realities—now shall the
47 glorious mystery of God in our nature be known—now shall it be
48 known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of
49 Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up—it is not knowledge about
50 God that it contains, but it is an entering into God—I saw that
51 there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elij ah,
52 surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual
53 temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of
54 grace, grace unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of
55 the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled
56 with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the
57 midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see
58 nothing—so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the
59 other left, because the one has the light of God within while the
60 other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God
61 in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and
62 entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived
63 and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and
64 signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will
65 be deceived.—This is the fiery trial which is to try us.—It will be
66 for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of
67 Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the
68 very center. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have
69 believed—but the trial of real faith will be found to honor and
70 praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The
71 stony-ground hearers will be made manifest—the love of many will
72 wax cold. I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall
73 the awful sight of a false Christ be seen of this earth, and nothing
74 but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the
75 enemy to deceive—for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteous
76 ness he will work---he will have a counterpart or every part of God’s
77 truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must
78 and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified
79 and filled with God—and just in proportion as the Spirit of God
80 works, so will he—when our Lord anoints men with power, so will
81 he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those
82 are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of
83 man. There will be outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation.
84 It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just
85 increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the
86 Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that
87 we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the
88 Spirit—have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan—be
89 full of eyes within—be clay in the hands of the potter—submit to be
90 filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might
91 nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to
92 enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb. I saw it to be the will of
93 God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God
94 from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who
95 is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door.
96 For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he
97 shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which
98 every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes
99 not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they
100 are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it—they
101 turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in
102 which our robes are washed and made white. There are low
103 views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the
104 flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made
105 himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at
106 present, a leading back to the cross. I saw that night, and often
107 since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body,
108 such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put
109 away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living
110 God as has not been—the servants of God sealed in their
111 foreheads—great conformity to Jesus—his holy, holy image seen
112 in his people—just the bride made comely by his comeliness put
113 upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for,
114 that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the
115 air—and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us.
116 He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen.
117 Even so come Lord Jesus.""
https://seedandbread.org/download/A...r-Students/MSS10-Imminency-of-the-Rapture.pdf
 

TheLearner

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Please use primary sources with links, so everyone can check the sources for themselves. Please avoid, secondary sources.
 

TheLearner

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Didache 16
1. "Watch" over your life "let your lamps" be not quenched "and your loins" be not ungirded, but be "ready," for ye know not "the hour in which our Lord cometh."
2. But be frequently gathered together seeking the things which are profitable for your souls, for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you except ye be found perfect at the last time;
3. For in the last days the false prophets and the corruptors shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate;
4. For as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray, and then shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began.
5. Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and "many shall be offended" and be lost, but "they who endure" in their faith "shall be saved" by the curse itself.
6. And "then shall appear the signs" of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead:
7. But not of all the dead, but as it was said, "The Lord shall come and all his saints with him."
8. Then shall the world "see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven."
http://www.thedidache.com/