The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

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TheLearner

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Acts 26:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
 

GaryA

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Funny you keep saying this

its not true, as I have said numerous times, (I used to be an ardent pretriber so I know)

pretrib comes from putting many passages of scripture together not just one passage, as I said, that would be foolish.
I grew up with the pre-trib teaching.

Pre-trib comes [mostly] from Daniel 9:24-27 with every other related (or unrelated) passage wrapped around it.

Show me pre-trib without Daniel 9:24-27 "in the picture" in any form or fashion.

1) Where do you get the 7-year trib period?

2) Where do you get the treaty with Israel - with the antichrist making it then breaking it?

3) Where do you get "mid-trib" along with the "first half" and "second/last half" of the trib?
 

massorite

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Jan 3, 2015
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Here's some more FALSE DOCTRINE. One does not oppose one false doctrine with another which is equally false.

The Second Coming of Christ will NOT usher in the end of the world but the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. And since Jesus comes WITH His saints at angels at His Second Coming, it should be clear to all that He will firstly come FOR His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture.

Then the judgment of the works of the saints will take place in Heaven at the Judgment Seat of Christ, followed by the Marriage of the Lamb. Then after that Christ will come with His saints and angels to the battle of Armageddon, where He will destroy all His enemies. See Revelation 19 and many other Scriptures both in the OT and in the NT.
I agree. Christ's return will not be the end of the world.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
Eze 39:10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
Eze 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
Eze 39:13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
Eze 39:15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
Eze 39:16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
The above verses tell us what is going to happen in the days and months just after the Battle of Armageddon.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
And these verses above tell us about the restoration of Israel after the Battle of Armageddon and the verses below tell us that God will gather His people out from the nations where they are living even today. Even during the millennial reign.
Eze 28:25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
Eze 28:26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Yes it CAN
it does not mean it will
again, the context tells us,

for many will come in my name and will decieve many
same greek word.. not one, many

context has to be taken into account,
Luke's account leaves out this detail/word altogether (the one I am zeroing in on, to show how it aligns with other passages elsewhere).

Matthew & Mark say what you've shown, but ALSO INCLUDE the word I've pointed out (in a separate phrase), in the verse before the one you've quoted.

So, as I see it, all you are doing is conflating two distinct details and disregarding that "G5100 - tis" can mean "A CERTAIN ONE" (with regard to DECEPTION... which is the "theme," if you will, of that LIST of passages where I show their three parts [of the 7-yrs]... they all START with "[a] DECEPTION"... have you seen my posts about how "BOW" [Rev6:2] is often used [in Scripture] to depict/represent "DECEPTION"?)

Anyway, it kind of reminds me of those who want to DIS-believe Scripture coz they say the following two "accounts" of a certain event do not "line up" (match), when really what is happening is that one account LEAVES OUT A PARTICULAR "DETAIL" that the OTHER account INCLUDES:

Luke 24 -

10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.


John 20 -

20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together:
and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
 

GaryA

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Recall my post about Jesus' use of the "singular" when He spoke (in Matt24:15) about "the abomination [SINGULAR] of desolation [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet" and my pointing out that this is NOT the context of Dan9:24-27 [though that's RELATED] but more aligned with Daniel 12:11 (and then mentioned the "[be] SET UP [H5414]" word... and also how its context is the "far-future" 2nd half of trib, with Daniel being told he will be resurrected at the END of those particular day-amounts supplied in that context)?

I don't happen to recall your response to that [post]. Do you happen to remember (if you answered it)?

Thanks.
No-doubt one of the following:

1) I decided it was moot because I don't believe the Bible defines a 7-year trib period with a mid-point and two halves, etc. - or some such similar thing...

2) I was "overwhelmed" by the shear number of posts... (I don't always have the time to keep up with every post - sometimes I "skim" to save time. (especially the looooong posts)

3) Somewhere between these two may exist another possible reason... (?)

I do [generally] try to keep up with ongoing discussion already initiated - if I feel I have something worthwhile to post.

Sometimes I don't bother to respond to a post if I believe it will turn into:

is too
is not
is too
is not

(rarely ever worth it)
 

GaryA

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"Historicist" would be along the lines of [/similar to] what [member] GaryA espouses, if I recall correctly. Is that right, GaryA? (that "[The] Revelation" has been unfolding over time since the first century... [not the part about Christ and the sin nature... lol])
Yes - or, close enough.
:)
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Look again - there are saved people there (indicated) - being judged, no less.
The judging is done before hand. John 3:18

Its death and hades, the suffering of death that we suffer in the bodies of death or identified the wrath of God being revealed. No suffering after this life.

Its not the unbeliever that is cast in the fire .They that have no spirit life they are dead. And their bodies are returning to the lifeless spiritless dust it was formed from. Never to rise to new spirit life.

The letter of the law it will not rise to condemn by corruption another entire creation.

Two things that will not rise on the last day .The letter of the law and those who it condemns .Those who come under the law of faith the unseen they will rise having ben given a new spirt and heart they await their new incorruptible bodies.
 

GaryA

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jesus never mentioned initial birth pangs, he mentioned numerous events which he said would like birth pangs get exponentially worse. Things like natural disasters, disease, hunger

again we have been witnessing this for a few decades now
How 'bout that --- Jesus saying something in the Olivet Discourse referring to things happening in our lifetimes!

(Not all before or all after.)

Hmmm . . .
 

GaryA

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Jackson123

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Yep

the birth pangs tell us we are close to this event. Your talking about years of things getting exponentially stronger and closer together

look at just earthquakes in the past 50 years, we see then getting exponentially stronger in power and happening more often.

same with disease, we had the virus what ten years ago,that scared everyone, yet the virus today comming out of China is far worse.

birth pangs..
You mean close to second coming, or great tribulation?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Look again - there are saved people there (indicated) - being judged, no less.
no there are not

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire

The people of God are not dead. They have been made alive in Christ. They will not participate in this judgment because jesus took judgment in their place.


The great white is for eternal judgment, each one is tried for their works. because they rejected the gift of Grce. thus they only have their works to fall back on. And no one will survive... There is no reward at this judgment, Only judgment )the second death)

The bema seat is for rewards. Gold silver precious stone wood hay and straw. Even those who have all their reward burtn atr still saved, even as through fire.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I grew up with the pre-trib teaching.

Pre-trib comes [mostly] from Daniel 9:24-27 with every other related (or unrelated) passage wrapped around it.
You could not have grown up pre trib with Dan 9 as your primary passage I grew up pre trib also. Dan 9 was not even a passage I used to support what I believed.

Show me pre-trib without Daniel 9:24-27 "in the picture" in any form or fashion.

1) Where do you get the 7-year trib period?
There is no 7 year trib period. how many times do I have to keep saying this?

2) Where do you get the treaty with Israel - with the antichrist making it then breaking it?
treaty with Isreal? The treaty is with many.. This continues to show me you just do not understand what people believe.

3) Where do you get "mid-trib" along with the "first half" and "second/last half" of the trib?
Math 24. when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel. do this.. why? based on Jesus words. FOR THEN there will be gret tribulation such as has never been before or after.

What happens to put an end to this tribulation? Jesus returns and sets up his throne in jerusalem to rule the world.

Take this with Jeremiah, a prophecy concerning the end, and the great tribulation on the earth.

Jeremiah 30:7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

what happens at the end of this time of great trouble?

God resters Isreal. and his son becomes king.

See, Dan 9 is not the base passage you claim it is. it just helps us.. Standuing alone it is powerless..

And your interpretation of Dan 9 is flawed to begin with. so....[/QUOTE]
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Luke's account leaves out this detail/word altogether (the one I am zeroing in on, to show how it aligns with other passages elsewhere).

Matthew & Mark say what you've shown, but ALSO INCLUDE the word I've pointed out (in a separate phrase), in the verse before the one you've quoted.

So, as I see it, all you are doing is conflating two distinct details and disregarding that "G5100 - tis" can mean "A CERTAIN ONE" (with regard to DECEPTION... which is the "theme," if you will, of that LIST of passages where I show their three parts [of the 7-yrs]... they all START with "[a] DECEPTION"... have you seen my posts about how "BOW" [Rev6:2] is often used [in Scripture] to depict/represent "DECEPTION"?)

Anyway, it kind of reminds me of those who want to DIS-believe Scripture coz they say the following two "accounts" of a certain event do not "line up" (match), when really what is happening is that one account LEAVES OUT A PARTICULAR "DETAIL" that the OTHER account INCLUDES:

Luke 24 -

10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.


John 20 -

20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together:
and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
they all three agree man, They are three instances of three men writing down the account of the same meeting and same words of jesus, If one leaves a few words out. it does not mean they were never said, that author just decided it did not matter to his audience.

There is no initial birth pang. I have shown this in great detail. Its up to you if you see it or not.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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How 'bout that --- Jesus saying something in the Olivet Discourse referring to things happening in our lifetimes!

(Not all before or all after.)

Hmmm . . .
I never stated otherwise now did I?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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they all three agree man, They are three instances of three men writing down the account of the same meeting and same words of jesus, If one leaves a few words out. it does not mean they were never said, that author just decided it did not matter to his audience.

There is no initial birth pang. I have shown this in great detail. Its up to you if you see it or not.
All I'm saying is that Jesus' words and Paul's words agree.

--Paul, in 2Th2, is saying to the Thessalonians (v.2) [basically], don't let anyone convince you that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative; G1764]";
then in verse 3 says, "that day [the DOTL (from the immediately preceding verse, v.2, NOT the [distinct] Subject of v.1)] will not be present, if not shall have come ____ *FIRST* [<--ONE THING is named as *FIRST*] AND [distinctly-->] the man of sin be revealed" (and I pointed out that this SEQUENCE is REPEATED 3x in this passage, which SEQUENCE is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 had also showed); this means that when the DOTL *IS* present [when it WILL be present (future to us presently)], the man of sin will ALSO have ARRIVED (the "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/parousia" of the man of sin, per v.9a);
"the DOTL [time period of JUDGMENTS unfolding, etc] will not "be present" apart from that character. That person is an integral part of the JUDGMENTS unfolding in the trib years [aka, at the START/ARRIVAL of "the DOTL [time period of JUDGMENTS unfolding, etc]" (as Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Lam2:3-4 [in similar language to that of 2Th2:7b-8a, Rev5:6,6:1-2]), when He Himself will open the FIRST SEAL); and
1Th5:2-3 speaks of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period, which will take place "SUDDENLY" (no "signs" or anything LEAD UP TO IT, and POINT TOWARD IT), so 1Th5:2-3 is speaking of "birth PANG [SINGULAR--SAME WORD Jesus used in the PLURAL], and again, this is at the point in time of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL [time period]"<--its INITIAL MOMENTS (when it is STARTING);

--Jesus, in His Olivet Discourse, mentioned "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8, and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11 [though not "NAMED" as such, in that passage--they are IDENTICAL items DESCRIBED there, with very little differences in the wording, as I mentioned]); so I pointed out how "the beginning of birth PANGS" are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6 (there are studies out there showing their similarities, and I think there are other [OT] passages speaking of same);
so ALL I am pointing out is that ALL THREE of these accounts (Paul's, Jesus', and John's in Rev) ALL show that the "FUTURE, SPECIFIC [LIMITED] TIME PERIOD" (we commonly call the 7-yr trib) *STARTS* with an INDIVIDUAL (esp one bringing DECEPTION [I think I mentioned how "bow" often represents "deception" etc...]);
I'm not saying that every person is going to notice [or HAS to notice] that the FIRST ITEM Jesus LISTED here in the contents of "the beginning of birth PANGS" is going to notice that HE ALSO [FIRST] LISTED [Matt24:4/Mk13:5] "an individual" [G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'] to be not deceived by, along with the "many" who will also be present to deceive/deceiving... I'm just saying, WOW, all three accounts AGREE (re: what KICKS OFF the future time period known as "the DOTL" [<--starting with the TRIB and its JUDGMENTS unfolding, just like the parallel wording in Lam2:3-4 sounds coincidentally LIKE 2Th2:7b-8a, when "HE" unleashes [so to speak] their enemy upon them, in an act of "judgment"--the first of many to follow on from there (i.e. the SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS we see in "[The] Revelation" [which v.1 (1:1) states "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--i.e. the 7-yr period])])
 
Mar 14, 2011
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All I'm saying is that Jesus' words and Paul's words agree.

--Paul, in 2Th2, is saying to the Thessalonians (v.2) [basically], don't let anyone convince you that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative; G1764]";
then in verse 3 says, "that day [the DOTL (from the immediately preceding verse, v.2, NOT the [distinct] Subject of v.1)] will not be present, if not shall have come ____ *FIRST* [<--ONE THING is named as *FIRST*] AND [distinctly-->] the man of sin be revealed" (and I pointed out that this SEQUENCE is REPEATED 3x in this passage, which SEQUENCE is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 had also showed); this means that when the DOTL *IS* present [when it WILL be present (future to us presently)], the man of sin will ALSO have ARRIVED (the "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/parousia" of the man of sin, per v.9a);
"the DOTL [time period of JUDGMENTS unfolding, etc] will not "be present" apart from that character. That person is an integral part of the JUDGMENTS unfolding in the trib years [aka, at the START/ARRIVAL of "the DOTL [time period of JUDGMENTS unfolding, etc]" (as Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Lam2:3-4 [in similar language to that of 2Th2:7b-8a, Rev5:6,6:1-2]), when He Himself will open the FIRST SEAL); and
1Th5:2-3 speaks of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period, which will take place "SUDDENLY" (no "signs" or anything LEAD UP TO IT, and POINT TOWARD IT), so 1Th5:2-3 is speaking of "birth PANG [SINGULAR--SAME WORD Jesus used in the PLURAL], and again, this is at the point in time of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL [time period]"<--its INITIAL MOMENTS (when it is STARTING);

--Jesus, in His Olivet Discourse, mentioned "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8, and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11 [though not "NAMED" as such, in that passage--they are IDENTICAL items DESCRIBED there, with very little differences in the wording, as I mentioned]); so I pointed out how "the beginning of birth PANGS" are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6 (there are studies out there showing their similarities, and I think there are other [OT] passages speaking of same);
so ALL I am pointing out is that ALL THREE of these accounts (Paul's, Jesus', and John's in Rev) ALL show that the "FUTURE, SPECIFIC [LIMITED] TIME PERIOD" (we commonly call the 7-yr trib) *STARTS* with an INDIVIDUAL (esp one bringing DECEPTION [I think I mentioned how "bow" often represents "deception" etc...]);
I'm not saying that every person is going to notice [or HAS to notice] that the FIRST ITEM Jesus LISTED here in the contents of "the beginning of birth PANGS" is going to notice that HE ALSO [FIRST] LISTED [Matt24:4/Mk13:5] "an individual" [G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'] to be not deceived by, along with the "many" who will also be present to deceive/deceiving... I'm just saying, WOW, all three accounts AGREE (re: what KICKS OFF the future time period known as "the DOTL" [<--starting with the TRIB and its JUDGMENTS unfolding, just like the parallel wording in Lam2:3-4 sounds coincidentally LIKE 2Th2:7b-8a, when "HE" unleashes [so to speak] their enemy upon them, in an act of "judgment"--the first of many to follow on from there (i.e. the SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS we see in "[The] Revelation" [which v.1 (1:1) states "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--i.e. the 7-yr period])])
Jesus words were that there would be a group of events THESE things (this group) is the beginning of sorrows

Let’s not take it anyplace where it does not it does not say their is an initial birth pang, what Paul said does not change that fact
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Does anyone see the correlation?

Yes it is clearly there. It helps us with other phrases that help us understand the timing of the last day . Like the words "under the sun" to represent the temporal what the eyes see .

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. Revelation 21:24

The new heaven and earth is not signified as under the Sun. The corruption indicated by temporal time keepers will be not be under the feet of His chaste virgin bride. .as shown in the parable below. But like prior to the 4th day before the glory departed .

That day when the power of light came from a temporal source (sun and moon) as the wrath of God under the sun revealed from heaven a dead creation . It began it ticking downward to the last day

Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered