The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

[Absolutely]

Agreed

I read right past it for years ,then one day I am like "oh my God"

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Yes rotten fruit. Gathered at the end of or right before the end of the gt.
Note that the other 2 gatherings /raptures are to heaven.

So you are reading this as events separated by a great span of time? 7 years perhaps?

 

[Absolutely]

So you are reading this as events separated by a great span of time? 7 years perhaps?

It is not the rapture of 1 thes 4.

Here is how I see it.
I see it TOTALLY as groom//bride.
That is my starting place.
The bride is gentile and Jesus is the kinsman redeemer. Jesus has his eye on two brides. The 1st and second covenant people.
Remember how david and Jacob had to settle for a bride that was not the first pick?
But they had their eye on the first bride?
That to me is rev 14.

That is the "but you saved the best wine for last"...(his Jewish people gathered)

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Oh good, another one. Rather than throw silly idioms about, learn the rules of debate, even the most basic. The onus is on the one that insists the post-tribulation rapture is scripture, not the pre.
The pretribulation rapture is proven with scripture throughout this thread. The post tribulation rapture was claimed to be in evidence when one posted the scripture of 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, but that was not correct and the post tribulation rapture claim was not supported in either that chapter 4 nor in chapter 5. In fact, the pre-tribulation rapture was.



Realizing you're unaware at that point allow me to help you. You just provided a quote that applies to you both.
What comes next? Insults and pejoratives? If you and Lucy are not here to learn scripture, don't attempt to play games with it. There are Christians in this forum dedicated to Christ and we respect the Word, and His word.

You're the one throwing around the insults. And they are becoming progressively worse.

I'm afraid I can't accept you as preeminently qualified to teach or interpret scripture.
Or to judge the dedication or lack thereof of others to the word.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

It is not the rapture of 1 thes 4.

Here is how I see it.
I see it TOTALLY as groom//bride.
That is my starting place.
The bride is gentile and Jesus is the kinsman redeemer. Jesus has his eye on two brides. The 1st and second covenant people.
Remember how david and Jacob had to settle for a bride that was not the first pick?
But they had their eye on the first bride?
That to me is rev 14.

That is the "but you saved the best wine for last"...(his Jewish people gathered)

I see, that's logical. I thought you might have been mixing up Rev 14 with Rev 7 where we see 2 distinct groups of the saved.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I read right past it for years ,then one day I am like "oh my God"

I think that happens to us all. One day you'll see something you've read dozens of times jump right off the page.
I think it might be Holy Spirit doing the emphasising sometimes.

 

[Absolutely]

This is for any position (post pre or mid)
I think we all see a resurrection coming

 

[Absolutely]

 

[Jackson123]

...it says revealed.

Many KNEW Obama was bad BEFORE he became president.

The ac revealed is not the ac in power.
So yes the ac is REVEALED and then the rapture.

Again there is nothing pointing to a postrib rapture.

It is poorly thought out.

So you believe the man of sin reveal before tribulation?
Where it say?

For sure rapture happen in the last trump.
1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[GaryA]

"moon into blood / moon became as blood" (Joel 2:31 & Revelation 6:12-13)

is NOT identical to

"the moon shall not give her light" (Matthew 24:29 / Mark 13:24-25).


They are described entirely distinctly

The way it is described in each passage is due to the passage context; however, they are referring to the same event.

And they are said to occur at very distinct time-slots:

--one is "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect

--the other is "AFTER the tribulation [of those days;
which is referring, in context, to AFTER the "GREAT [tribulation]" aspect

I would appreciate it very much if you would take my list from post #353 that you quoted in post #364 and tell me which verses go with which 'time-slot' as you have described above.

 

[GaryA]

It says there is a gathering IN HEAVEN and NOT by Jesus.

Are "the four winds" in the 3rd heaven?

The word 'heaven' in that verse is referring to the 1st heaven - the atmosphere - above the earth.

Anywhere else (even the 2nd heaven) would definitely require a resurrection (first) due to the fact that people cannot breathe there (as "mere mortals").

In the first phrase of the verse, Jesus sends his angels . . .

That means he commands or instructs them . . .

Jesus does in fact "gather" even if it is by and through the use of angels.

 

[GaryA]

Both can happen in the twinkle of an eye, so only need two twinkle of an eye

I just had to LOL when I read this. I am pretty sure that I have never heard anyone say it.

Just so you properly understand what scripture is saying...

If you read carefully, you should realize that the "twinkling of an eye" statement applies to the "change" and not the "catching up" that we call the 'rapture'.

Only one 'twinkle' is required because the "change" will happen to all - both "the dead" and "the alive" - at the same time.

 

[GaryA]

Regardless of your view on when the rapture occurs. there should be no disagreement on when the Great Tribulation begins, as Jesus Himself tells us:

MATTHEW 24:
The Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

Just make sure you understand what the 1st century Jewish Christians understood when they read the parenthetical statement in that verse.

If you do not understand the significance of the parenthetical statement, then you will not properly understand the full meaning of the verse.

;-)

 

[Whispered]

This is for any position (post pre or mid)
I think we all see a resurrection coming

Fantastic!

"BRAVO!"

 

[Whispered]

You're the one throwing around the insults. And they are becoming progressively worse.

I'm afraid I can't accept you as preeminently qualified to teach or interpret scripture.
Or to judge the dedication or lack thereof of others to the word.

God forgive you your false witness. Amen.

 

[azamzimtoti]

(Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken)

(Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other)

The gathering of the elect "immediately after the tribulation of those days" shows that the elect were on earth during the days of the tribulation, and Jesus said if the great tribulation was not limited in duration the elect would have also perished - thus, however one understands the rapture it is most definitely post "great" tribulation:

(Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.)

(Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.)

 

[Whispered]

(Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken)

(Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other)

The gathering of the elect "immediately after the tribulation of those days" shows that the elect were on earth during the days of the tribulation, and Jesus said if the great tribulation was not limited in duration the elect would have also perished - thus, however one understands the rapture it is most definitely post "great" tribulation:

(Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.)

(Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.)

I think it best to cross compare scriptures so as to know the actual message in Matthew 24.
If the elect were on the earth after the tribulation that would make no sense. Matthew 24 does not tell us the elect are on the earth. It tells us the angels of the Lord gathered the elect from on the four winds and from one end of Heaven unto the other. Heaven, one end to the other, is not Earth.

The Book of Matthew chapter 24 with cross references

 

[Jackson123]

the first gathering is the firstfruits 144k;
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

clearly the 144k are in heaven well into the gt.

Now that alone "violates" any supposition that the dead are raised postrib (we know that is impossible because 1 thes4 says the dead rise first)

But wait....firstfruits points to main harvest!!!
Here is the harvest after firstfruits:
rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

But,but ,but that aint in the gt..

Oh yes it is...look how the Holy Ghost put that dynamic in there;
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

See that? That was added by the Holy Spirit as a component to designate; 1) a warning and admonition just before the rapture of the ripe fruit or messianic Jews.
2)To cannonise the setting of that vivid gathering /rapture in the middle of or well into the gt,

So,we see that ONLY A PRETRIB RAPTURE harmonises wirth rev 14

So you believe rapture before tribulation for only 144 thausand.

How about this rapture

1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It is happen in the last trumpet, is this another rapture?

Why the first rapture only 144 thausand.

 

[Jackson123]

Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

After I read one more time this verse, I believe it is happen in thausand years kingdom
This verse doesn't prove that this 144 thausand saint rapture before trib. It only take a second to rapture

These saint . Read rev 20:4 they may not rapture at all. They back to life and reign with Jesus


Jesus or the Lamb reign from Sion

Look rev 20

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.


They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6

Thausand years kingdom is on earth and happen after tribulation

T

 

[azamzimtoti]

I think it best to cross compare scriptures so as to know the actual message in Matthew 24.
If the elect were on the earth after the tribulation that would make no sense. Matthew 24 does not tell us the elect are on the earth. It tells us the angels of the Lord gathered the elect from on the four winds and from one end of Heaven unto the other. Heaven, one end to the other, is not Earth.

It does make sense - the great tribulation is shortened so the elect on the "uttermost part of the earth" would not perish along with the rest of the "flesh".

In regards to the statement gathered from the four winds etc.:

(Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven)

That Christ is using symbology with the four winds motif is shown in Zechariah:

(Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD)