The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

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tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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Indeed!

All of the following are referring to the same 'sun-and-moon' event:

Isaiah 13:10
Joel 2:10,31; 3:15
Zechariah 14:6
Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25
Acts 2:20
Revelation 6:12-13; 8:12

Yes I already reprinted some of these scriptures to prove the same point but all I received back was gobblygook. I wish you better luck
but somehow I doubt you will get it. Some people would rather sell their Grandmother than admit they just might be wrong ;)
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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...and in one of those linked posts, points out:

that the first seven English translations of the Bible translate [in 2Th2:3] it as "THE DEPARTURE [/THE DEPARTING] first"... before the kjv later translated it as "a falling away" (leaving off the definite article "the").

Perhaps it WAS easier for them, back in the days of those translations, than it is in our day of "internet gurus by the ton"... but it is our responsibility to search out a matter and search the scriptures to see if these things be so. (of course, it helps if one is made aware of it. ;) )




The BASIC meaning of that Grk word is "departure".

CONTEXT (and basic grammar) helps us determine just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant (in any given passage, where used).

That is simple and straightforward. Man/men/people make/s it complicated. ;)
So according to you where it says '' search the scriptures'' it means we should all have copies of the first seven English language
Bibles and/ or a working knowledge of Greek. Do you suggest we check out Amazon for these Bibles? Or Waterstones? Where did you get yours? As for knowing Greek well some are more gifted in learning languages than others. In any case I understand that like Hebrew some words and phrases in Greek can mean more than one thing.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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2. The Bible is crystal clear that believers are NOT subject to wrath. Many falsely claim that the Tribulation period is not a period of wrath, even though both the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan are both expressed during that time. Therefore the Church will not be present on earth during this period.

/QUOTE]

An assumption. There is no scripture that states the church WILL NOT BE PRESENT at that period.
It's very dishonest to keep making this claim again and again and again.

"We are not appointed to suffer wrath". This is agreed by all rapture positions. Pre/mid and post rapture
Stop misusing the scripture as though it were "proof" of a pre-trib rapture. It is not.


There is no scripture that tells you THE ONLY WAY God can do this is by placing the resurrection/rapture before the tribulation. There are plenty of examples and LESSONS of The Lord saving his people THROUGH troubles. He is MIGHTY to save.

I already stated this in a previous post but it was ignored.

3. You will not find the word "church" or "churches" from Revelation 6 through 18. Those chapters describe both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. That in itself is proof that the Church is not on earth at that time.

This s a very weak argument. Repeated ad nauseum but weak.

It defies logic when a complete lack of evidence is presented as though it's some sort of irrefutable proof.
Lack of the word “church” doesn't prove lack of the church.


The Book of Revelation is an epistle that was written to the church & for the church!
As per the opening statement:

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,


The word “church” is not used in all NT books. I don't think the 'church' word is used in Mark, Luke, John, Galatians, Ephesians,
2 Peter, 1 John and 2 John, and not until the 16th chapter of Romans. This is no proof the church is not present.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Indeed!

All of the following are referring to the same 'sun-and-moon' event:
[emphasis mine ^ ]
Isaiah 13:10
Joel 2:10,31; 3:15
Zechariah 14:6
Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25
Acts 2:20
Revelation 6:12-13; 8:12
"moon into blood / moon became as blood" (Joel 2:31 & Revelation 6:12-13)

is NOT identical to

"the moon shall not give her light" (Matthew 24:29 / Mark 13:24-25).


They are described entirely distinctly.


And they are said to occur at very distinct time-slots:

--one is "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect

--the other is "AFTER the tribulation [of those days;
which is referring, in context, to AFTER the "GREAT [tribulation]" aspect that Jesus spoke of in vv.15-22, esp v.21 (parallel to Rev7:14's wording also)]"

Completely distinct.


Will be back later this evening, to try to cover more response to other posts. Have a nice day, everyone! :)
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I read that ..what is being talked about here and went seeking. What I found was a man that wrote hymns and was a preacher. He wrote about believers being caught up before the great tribulation. This was written in about 300-400AD. Then I watched on TV a Christian channel this man (forgot his name. Can see his face lol) that is gone home now. He on this show was talking about this same Hymn writer and showed the scrolls. And found even earlier scrolls from others talking about caught up PRE TRIB.

This DOES NOT prove PRE TRIB is right. But does prove that they did in fact talk preach about it.
In the rapture the dead rise first pretrib.
So yes he will be caught up pretrib.
 
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Hi Absolutely
What part of Rev.14 only fits a pretrib rapture?
There are 2 gatherings in rev 14 during the gt.
Firstfruits then ripe fruit or main harvest.
That makes a post trib gathering/rapture impossible.

Unless paul was mistaken when he said the dead precede the living.
Postrib model has the dead gathered AFTER the living.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Sure there are...


The best example that comes to mind is:

Matthew 24:31

And - yes - it is absolutely most definitely talking about the 'rapture' event.
It says there is a gathering IN HEAVEN and NOT by Jesus.

So yes we agree Jesus returns postrib with the saints.

You have no verses
 
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I think Paul talk to all Christian before rapture that the rapture will happen after man of sin or tribulation.

He warn people that think the rapture already come, it is wrong, rapture come after tribulation. Paul not say only people that repent during tribulation experience tribulation

Paul say simple thing.

Rapture happen after man of sin or tribulation, or no rapture before tribulation

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
...it says revealed.

Many KNEW Obama was bad BEFORE he became president.

The ac revealed is not the ac in power.
So yes the ac is REVEALED and then the rapture.

Again there is nothing pointing to a postrib rapture.

It is poorly thought out.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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There are 2 gatherings in rev 14 during the gt.
Firstfruits then ripe fruit or main harvest.
That makes a post trib gathering/rapture impossible.

Unless paul was mistaken when he said the dead precede the living.
Postrib model has the dead gathered AFTER the living.

i read rev 14 I do not see a verse say therevare 2 rapture

How you say the dead precede the living mean pre trib?

It can be post trib, the dead go to the air first and it only take a second, the next second are the living

Both can happen in the twinkle of an eye, so only need two twinkle of an eye

And it happen in the last trump. Do tribulation start in the last trump?

No. So pretrib not fit with this verse



1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead

shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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There are 2 gatherings in rev 14 during the gt.
Firstfruits then ripe fruit or main harvest.
That makes a post trib gathering/rapture impossible.

Unless paul was mistaken when he said the dead precede the living.
Postrib model has the dead gathered AFTER the living.

Regarding Rev 14
1 The picture is of 144,00 (probably Jewish) firstfruits consecrated to the Lord. Then The Gospel is proclaimed.
There is a proclamation that Babylon The Great has fallen. And a warning to those who worship The Beast.
Then the Saints are advised to have patient endurance.

2 There is a harvest were the grapes are thrown into the wine press of God's wrath. These are not raptured saints.

3 There isn't a tribulation model where "the dead are gathered AFTER the living." Neither Pre/Mid nor Post Tribbers claim this.
You are making this up. Or you are repeating what you've heard from a dishonest source.

When reading bear in mind, there are 22 chapters in The Book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
The events are not listed in strict chronological order. The Semitic writing style we see in many prophetic books is used in the unfolding of revelation. The same themes and story can be re-told several times, sometimes from different perspectives filling in new or different details.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Rabbis eh? Funny that. I also believe that prophecy follows patterns and models.
There are patterns and models that blow the pre-trib theory apart. I've attempted to discuss them here years ago on other threads.
How many rapture threads have there been? I've posted loads of scripture and cross-referencing. People tend to cling to their view however much scriptural evidence one highlights.

Regarding the the 7 lampstands, I assume you are referring to the lampstands of Revelation 2 & 3?
Why don't you tell me where you think the Great Tribulation begins.
Regardless of your view on when the rapture occurs. there should be no disagreement on when the Great Tribulation begins, as Jesus Himself tells us:

MATTHEW 24:
The Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Regarding Rev 14
1 The picture is of 144,00 (probably Jewish) firstfruits consecrated to the Lord. Then The Gospel is proclaimed.
There is a proclamation that Babylon The Great has fallen. And a warning to those who worship The Beast.
Then the Saints are advised to have patient endurance.

2 There is a harvest were the grapes are thrown into the wine press of God's wrath. These are not raptured saints.

3 There isn't a tribulation model where "the dead are gathered AFTER the living." Neither Pre/Mid nor Post Tribbers claim this.
You are making this up. Or you are repeating what you've heard from a dishonest source.

When reading bear in mind, there are 22 chapters in The Book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
The events are not listed in strict chronological order. The Semitic writing style we see in many prophetic books is used in the unfolding of revelation. The same themes and story can be re-told several times, sometimes from different perspectives filling in new or different details.
The setting is in the middle of the gt
How is the following not a rapture/gathering?;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Ripe fruit taken during the gt.
The 144k taken before them as firstfruits.
 
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Quote by Lucy ""2 There is a harvest were the grapes are thrown into the wine press of God's wrath. These are not raptured saints.""

Yep
I never claimed otherwise.
(The guy on a cloud taking ripe fruit is Jesus)

The next guy is an angel gathering rotten fruit...to be trodden in the wine press
...a totally separate issue.
 
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""3 There isn't a tribulation model where "the dead are gathered AFTER the living." Neither Pre/Mid nor Post Tribbers claim this.
You are making this up. Or you are repeating what you've heard from a dishonest source. ""

Got it out of the bible.
You heard it first from me.
Nobody has ever seen it that I know of,and see how you overlooked it?
Even when I show it to people only a tiny fraction see it.
It is right there but definitely hidden.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
WHOA!!!!

BACK THE TRUCK UP!!!!

This is exactly the kind of statement that perfectly illustrates the kind of pride and arrogance that some pre-trib folks exhibit -- as if 'pre-trib' were somehow the 'default' in scripture that never needs to be "proven" while anything that might be considered contrary to it has the full burden of proof upon it.

Oh good, another one. Rather than throw silly idioms about, learn the rules of debate, even the most basic. The onus is on the one that insists the post-tribulation rapture is scripture, not the pre.
The pretribulation rapture is proven with scripture throughout this thread. The post tribulation rapture was claimed to be in evidence when one posted the scripture of 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, but that was not correct and the post tribulation rapture claim was not supported in either that chapter 4 nor in chapter 5. In fact, the pre-tribulation rapture was.



Just remember that a 'child' who understands the truth is better than an 'adult' who is deceived by his/her own pride.
Realizing you're unaware at that point allow me to help you. You just provided a quote that applies to you both.
What comes next? Insults and pejoratives? If you and Lucy are not here to learn scripture, don't attempt to play games with it. There are Christians in this forum dedicated to Christ and we respect the Word, and His word.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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The setting is in the middle of the gt
How is the following not a rapture/gathering?;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Ripe fruit taken during the gt.
The 144k taken before them as firstfruits.
Two different reapings then. You stopped at verse 16.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia
(ESV)
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
Sure there are...


The best example that comes to mind is:

Matthew 24:31

And - yes - it is absolutely most definitely talking about the 'rapture' event.
No, the rapture event preceded what is described in that verse. This is why the elect of the Father are gathered on the winds from Heaven, where they were raptured to. Earth is not Heaven.

31 And (BE)he will send out his angels with a loud (BF)trumpet call, and they will (BG)gather (BH)his elect from (BI)the four winds, (BJ)from one end of heaven to the other.

Listen to chapter 24
 
Jul 23, 2018
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a



i read rev 14 I do not see a verse say therevare 2 rapture

How you say the dead precede the living mean pre trib?

It can be post trib, the dead go to the air first and it only take a second, the next second are the living

Both can happen in the twinkle of an eye, so only need two twinkle of an eye

And it happen in the last trump. Do tribulation start in the last trump?

No. So pretrib not fit with this verse



1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead

shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

i read rev 14 I do not see a verse say therevare 2 rapture
the first gathering is the firstfruits 144k;
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

clearly the 144k are in heaven well into the gt.

Now that alone "violates" any supposition that the dead are raised postrib (we know that is impossible because 1 thes4 says the dead rise first)

But wait....firstfruits points to main harvest!!!
Here is the harvest after firstfruits:
rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

But,but ,but that aint in the gt..

Oh yes it is...look how the Holy Ghost put that dynamic in there;
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

See that? That was added by the Holy Spirit as a component to designate; 1) a warning and admonition just before the rapture of the ripe fruit or messianic Jews.
2)To cannonise the setting of that vivid gathering /rapture in the middle of or well into the gt,

So,we see that ONLY A PRETRIB RAPTURE harmonises wirth rev 14
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Two different reapings then. You stopped at verse 16.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia
(ESV)
Yes rotten fruit. Gathered at the end of or right before the end of the gt.
Note that the other 2 gatherings /raptures are to heaven.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Quote by Lucy ""2 There is a harvest were the grapes are thrown into the wine press of God's wrath. These are not raptured saints.""

Yep
I never claimed otherwise.
(The guy on a cloud taking ripe fruit is Jesus)

The next guy is an angel gathering rotten fruit...to be trodden in the wine press
...a totally separate issue.
Agreed