The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

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massorite

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Jan 3, 2015
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The story of the development of pre-tribulationism as we know it today is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. This has been perpetrated along two lines of ‘revisionism.’ One was to hide the real origin of pre-tribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christians were pre-trib. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint. Sometime in June of 1830 and out of the spectacle of alleged latter-day Holy Spirit outpouring in Scotland and England, the first documented evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture articulated in the form of a letter written by Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow. In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret claimed to have seen a series of visions of the coming of the Lord. She wrote down these visions and sent a copy to Edward Irving who pastored a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London. A month later Irving claimed in a private letter that Margaret’s visions had a huge impact on him. The outstanding feature of Margaret’s visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within the Church, combined with a secret rapture before the revealing of the Antichrist. She saw only these “Spirit filled” Christians “taken” to be with the Lord, while the rest of the Church without this experience would be left to be purged in the tribulation.
Here is the letter Margaret MacDonald wrote to Edward Irving.
“It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just `no God.’ I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men’s hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out. 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man
is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father’s glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but ’tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, "Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.’ “But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.” This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. ’Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - ‘tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious in breaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in everything we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honor and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of
God’s truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted
worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but `tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people was their turning from Jesus who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God’s holiness, and ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night,
and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus.”
Whats with the clocks???
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
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I know, Pre trib never teach third coming, I was in the church that teach Pre trib.

But they teach 1000 years kingdom when Jesus come to mont Olive is after tribulation so If they honest this is the order


Rapture and second coming> 7 years tribulation > third coming when Jesus come to the month Sion to reign for 1000 years.
Yes that is how a Pre-Tribber believes.
 
Mar 2, 2020
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Good advise. It is my God job to fight against false doctrinal beliefs and besides posting here is fun and I just love a good argument (in good taste of course) about biblical doctrine.
On the other hand if folks think they are going to go through a period of great tribulation and prepare themselves to endure to the end but are "raptured" out of here before a period of great tribulation there is nothing to loose by being prepared mentally and spiritually for a great tribulation. No negative impact at all.
But that's not what the Bible says!
It specifically says if Jesus isn't sent in time none will be saved!
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Mat 24

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Verse 37

As It was the day of noah, so It Will be the coming of the Son

Day of Noah ~ coming of Son

NOT

Day of Noah ~ tribulation.

Great tribulation and coming of son is two different word that has 2 different meaning.

In The day of Noah there are 2 group of people
1. Save because in the ark
2, unsave.

After The coming of Son there are 2 group of people

1. Save, go,to,heaven

2 unsave go,to hell.

These verse not tell the similarity the day of Noah and great tribulation.

These verse tell the similarity from the day of Noah and second coming
So you are saying Noah did not see any judgement???
Think about it.
The flood is DIRECT JUDGEMENT AS IS THE GT.

Ignoring that is bizare.

The fact stands that the timing is before the gt.
There is NO DELIVERANCCE or removal of ANY TYPE AFTER the gt /flood.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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But that's not what the Bible says!
It specifically says if Jesus isn't sent in time none will be saved!
rev 14 has the days shortened for the 144k and the subsequent harvest/gathering/rapture of the ripe fruit.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I don't think he did.

If he spoke in languages, then it had some purpose and coherency.

At least to someone.

By the way, I'm sick of the word "tongues". It is more biblical to use the word "language" or even "dialects".

If you look at the Greek word, and consider the context, these words should be used in modern English.

It is really ignorant to use the word "tongues". Unfortunately due to charismatics and Pentecostals, Bible translators continue to use it. But, they really should switch to using "languages" or "dialects".

The only exception would be in Acts 2 where it discusses tongues of fire. I will agree it is appropriate in that case because it was a visual representation of the languages and the speaking which would occur.

However, we won't sell that idea to the Pentecostal/charismatic crowd.
You guys painted yourselves into a corner.
Paul said "my spirit prayeth but my mind is unfruitful."
So he did not know what he was praying.

Now,lets look at this mental "logic" that the baptists (i know of no other denomination attacking charismatics) have invented.
They claim that the ONLY reason for tongues given was to evangelize.
In their minds they think the audience is ,lets say for example Ethiopian,and some Greek brothers try and reach them not knowing the native tongue.

So we invoke the human mind to falsely come up with a cessationist remedy.

Well guess what? if they are speaking Ethiopian under the power of the Holy Spirit ....WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD THEY NEED AN INTERPRETER?????

OOOPS.

No sir,cessationism is made up by those that say to the Spirit of God "we do not need your power or gifts"
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Ok so I did take a look at Rev. 14 and found that the whole verse is talking about the Wrath of God which means the Punishment of God.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
The wrath of God is only me"Ungodly and the Unrighteous" not the saved.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

The wrath of God is he children of "DISOBEDIENCE" NOT THE SAVED.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the wine press, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Man you really do need to do better research. Do you know what a wine press is? Ok I will tell you. Whe grapes are harvested they are thrown into a wine press where they are stomped on and crushed until they are pulverised in to grape juice.
All of the Rev 14 is about the battle of Armaggedon and the valley of Armageddon is a bowl shaped valley where the blood of those killed during the battle/wrath of God will raise up to the level of the horses bridle.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Those who have recieved salvation are not going to suffer the Wrath of God spoken of in Rev. 14
There is not one single word about any kind of tribulation or any kind of resurrection in the entire chapter. Why???? because the Wrath of God and the Tribulation are two different events and take place at two different times.
Get your facts straight Mr. Absolutely and get yourself some better research habits because it makes you look foolish when you are wrong.
Wrath is tribulation.
You think wrath has no trouble in it????

Ridiculous to think that.

But you inadvertently placed the timing of those ripe fruit harvested by Jesus on a cloud as in the gt....(and yes wrath)

So your zeal to correct is a little off. You do not hear what is being said so you insert "resurrection" wildly into the mix.



Step back and try to hear what is being said before you get all fired up in your put down mess.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
The wrath of God is he children of "DISOBEDIENCE" NOT THE SAVED.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the wine press, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Man you really do need to do better research. Do you know what a wine press is? Ok I will tell you. Whe grapes are harvested they are thrown into a wine press where they are stomped on and crushed until they are pulverised in to grape juice.


Man,what a mess.
You go to the end of the chapter and find the sentences pointing to the end of the gt,and pretend there are no verses and dynamics PRECEDING .


Really?

Then this wild statement;
All of the Rev 14 is about the battle of Armaggedon and the valley of Armageddon is a bowl shaped valley where the blood of those killed during the battle/wrath of God will raise up to the level of the horses bridle.
Did you actually read the chapter?????

There are 3 distinct gatherings in rev 14.

To you,aparently the only one worth reporting on is the wicked.
Why are you guys hopelessly mired in that dynamic??????
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Good advise. It is my God job to fight against false doctrinal beliefs and besides posting here is fun and I just love a good argument (in good taste of course) about biblical doctrine.
Here is the way I see it. If you believe that you are not going to be here on earth to suffer a period of Great Tribulatio and you suddenly find yourself in the middle of tribulation and the resurrection hasn't taken place yet. How many folks do you think will believe they were lied to or get angry at God because the believed that they were going to escape the tribulation? There will be a negative impact on millions of believers. Hence the great falling away.
On the other hand if folks think they are going to go through a period of great tribulation and prepare themselves to endure to the end but are "raptured" out of here before a period of great tribulation there is nothing to loose by being prepared mentally and spiritually for a great tribulation. No negative impact at all.
The for the compliment on Cookie. I got her when my mother past away. Unfortunately she was mean as a snake until the day she died.
Here is the way I see it. If you believe that you are not going to be here on earth to suffer a period of Great Tribulatio and you suddenly find yourself in the middle of tribulation and the resurrection hasn't taken place yet. How many folks do you think will believe they were lied to or get angry at God because the believed that they were going to escape the tribulation? There will be a negative impact on millions of believers. Hence the great falling away.
On the other hand if folks think they are going to go through a period of great tribulation and prepare themselves to endure to the end but are "raptured" out of here before a period of great tribulation there is nothing to loose by being prepared mentally and spiritually for a great tribulation. No negative impact at all.
That is a mental non truth.

In the parable of the virgins,the wise were wise due to oil. They were ALL watching and waiting,not for a false groom and subsequent hell on earth,but waiting to be taken to heaven.

The foolish were NOT WORTHY.
Jesus said "...but pray that you may be counted WORTHY to escape...."

Your entire premise is backwards. Those leaving in the rapture are intimate with Jesus. They love Him and His appearing. Those in love with their groom have no trouble dying for him (the opposite of the false testimony postribs say of us).
The ONLY rude awakening coming is the rapture will only involve those watching and waiting for the groom. Those mocking us will stay.
Kinda like with Noah and what he endured.


But maybe you haven't read where ALL TAKE THE MARK?
So,most likely none of you will see the end of the gt.Unless you take the mark.
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
544
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But that's not what the Bible says!
It specifically says if Jesus isn't sent in time none will be saved!
That is a mental non truth.

In the parable of the virgins,the wise were wise due to oil. They were ALL watching and waiting,not for a false groom and subsequent hell on earth,but waiting to be taken to heaven.

The foolish were NOT WORTHY
Jesus said "...but pray that you may be counted WORTHY to escape...."

Your entire premise is backwards. Those leaving in the rapture are intimate with Jesus. They love Him and His appearing. Those in love with their groom have no trouble dying for him (the opposite of the false testimony postribs say of us).
The ONLY rude awakening coming is the rapture will only involve those watching and waiting for the groom. Those mocking us will stay.
Kinda like with Noah and what he endured.


But maybe you haven't read where ALL TAKE THE MARK?
So,most likely none of you will see the end of the gt.Unless you take the mark.
Actually your missing a very important point about the ten virgins.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

All of the ten virgins knew who Christ was and all of ten virgins went out to meet Christ. This shows that all ten knew who Christ was and all ten virgins expected to be able to go with the Groom. The parable is not talking about non believers here it is talking about believers and when they realized that they had been left behind they banged on the door and begged to be let in.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Notice here that the five foolish virgins did at one time have oil in their lamps did once glow just as the 5 wise virgins lamps did.
Some got to go in and others did not. Which lines up with Daniel 12:2.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKEN, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Only those who are saved will rise from the dust of the earth but not all will go to everlasting life.

"But maybe you haven't read where ALL TAKE THE MARK?"
Actually I have spend about 8 years alone studing the book of Revelation.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Here we can see that there will be saints on the earth during the time the antichrist is on the earth. Why ?? Because the antichrist will "make war with the saints"
This means that we will have a choice to receive the mark of the beast or to reject it and this is why the antichrist will make war against us. Because we did not comply to his demands of worshiping him and the saints refused to take the mark. The word "all" in these scripture is considered an "in general" word just like it is used in verse 8.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So Rev. 13:18 proves that not all will who are on the earth will worship the beast. Even though the word "all" is used in verse 16 we know from verse 8 that the saints that are on the earth at that time will not receive that mark of the beast or worship him.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

This is why God has given us a warning at the end of this chapter for us to be wise and not to be foolish like the 5 foolish virgins. We will be here for a period of great tribulation.
You said "In the parable of the virgins,the wise were wise due to oil" The oil doesn't have anything to do with their wisdom and everything to do with their anointing. The oil represents the anointing of Christ.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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You guys painted yourselves into a corner.
Paul said "my spirit prayeth but my mind is unfruitful."
So he did not know what he was praying.

Now,lets look at this mental "logic" that the baptists (i know of no other denomination attacking charismatics) have invented.
They claim that the ONLY reason for tongues given was to evangelize.
In their minds they think the audience is ,lets say for example Ethiopian,and some Greek brothers try and reach them not knowing the native tongue.

So we invoke the human mind to falsely come up with a cessationist remedy.

Well guess what? if they are speaking Ethiopian under the power of the Holy Spirit ....WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD THEY NEED AN INTERPRETER?????

OOOPS.

No sir,cessationism is made up by those that say to the Spirit of God "we do not need your power or gifts"
First, it is not only Baptists who don't believe that modern babbling called "tongues" is not a correct representation of it. There are plenty of others including Lutherans, Presbyterians, and many other Christians who consider Pentecostals/charismatics to be odd and deceived. To be honest, about every Christian I know other than Pentecostals/Charismatics consider them to be "off". They may not say this in front of them, but this is the truth. Some are too polite to say it, but the overall view is that they are immature and fixated on juvenile stuff, and their church services are disordered.

Second, interpreters were needed concerning speaking in tongues because the audiences were mixed. Let's propose a scenario. The speaker all of a sudden starts speaking in Swahili, and he did not know it previously. A Swahili man is present in the meeting, and he understands the words of the speaker, but he doesn't know the common language of the crowd. An interpreter, who knows Swahili or is gifted at that moment by the Holy Spirit, interprets for the crowd what the speaker is saying. This would provide independent verification of the miracle.

Third, no one claims that "we don't need your power or gifts" in regards to the Holy Spirit. Your claim is that someone who doesn't believe in the modern claims about "tongues" doesn't believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is clearly a lie. For instance, I do acknowledge that the Church is dependent upon the Holy Spirit and his gifts, and so does every Christian I know. Just because we don't believe in YOUR CLAIMS and the claims of PENTECOSTALS/CHARISMATICS does not mean that we don't believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Regarding Paul's remark in 1 Cor 14:14, there is nothing in these verses which negates a real, human language.

1 Corinthians 14:13-15 13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Here are some notes in this regard:

1 Corinthians 14:14 14:14–15 When believers address God in an unlearned language, their human spirit is involved but not their mind, because they do not understand what they say. When the mind is involved, the believer speaks with understanding, and then the people who hear benefit from what is being said.

By the way, I have never been in a Pentecostal environment (and likely will never visit a Pentecostal church), but my understanding is that it is RARE that anyone interprets for those babbling in their version of "tongues" in their meetings, and interpretation was MANDATED by Scripture. So, even if their alleged babbbling is real tongues, why are they not obedient to Scripture and why isn't someone providing an interpretation?

And, finally, regarding "praying in the Spirit", I simply view this as praying through the agency of the Holy Spirit to God, and I would view it mostly as mental prayer rather than spoken prayer. I do believe a person can pray through the Spirit without words, because the Holy Spirit intercedes even when I am unable to formulate thoughts.

For instance, once I was involved in a serious accident and knocked senseless, but I was still conscious. I could not formulate thoughts but was praying in the Spirit to God regarding the situation. That would be a prime example of praying in the Spirit.

Regarding Pentecostal/charismatic claims that only people speaking in tongues can properly pray to God, and that they have reached some new level that others are not at, nonsense! I categorically reject their claims regarding being "spirit filled' and claiming that others are not, and need to come up their level and experience true empowerment. And, that is exactly what many or most of them teach. Unless you babble in mindless tongues, you are not on level 2. They may not tell you that openly, but if you dig down deep enough into the claims of Pentecostal denominations, that is what they believe. Some even claim that you aren't even a believer if you don't speak in tongues, although this is the more cultic fringe.
 
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I do not believe that the gift of tongues has ceased.

But I perceive that some go out of their way to magnify it (which in of itself exposes them).

Paul stated that in the church he would rather speak five words with his understanding than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue (1 CORINTHIANS 14:19).

Yet those who magnify the gift of tongues seem to rather speak ten thousand words in an unknown language than five in their native language. I visited a Pentecostal church many years before I became a believer and my reaction to them was exactly as stated in the scripture "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" I thought to myself, these people are weird.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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I do not believe that the gift of tongues has ceased.

But I perceive that some go out of their way to magnify it (which in of itself exposes them).

Paul stated that in the church he would rather speak five words with his understanding than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue (1 CORINTHIANS 14:19).

Yet those who magnify the gift of tongues seem to rather speak ten thousand words in an unknown language than five in their native language. I visited a Pentecostal church many years before I became a believer and my reaction to them was exactly as stated in the scripture "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" I thought to myself, these people are weird.
Well, I agree with you on part of what you said :)

I believe that "tongues" are really human languages that the person did not learn on his own.

Nor do I think he understands the words he is saying himself, but the Holy Spirit is giving him a message for others through him. It is likely a recipient is a person in the audience.

However, I do not think modern Pentecostals are exercising this gift, and if they are, they are exercising it out of order, like you mentioned. So, at best, they are disobedient Christians. I don't travel in Pentecostal circles, but I am guessing virtually none of them exercise their version of tongues in a biblical manner.

The accounts I have heard are that many of them are blabbering at the same time with no interpretation going on. Like I said, at best they are disobedient, and at worst, they have false doctrine.

But, you have to understand that in their culture, if they don't speak in tongues, some aren't even considered saved. And if they are considered saved, they are considered to be on "level 1" if they don't speak tongues, and "level 2" if they do.

Their belief statements often simply state that tongues are a gift everyone should experience. The indication is that if you don't experience it, you are not at their level. And, in some cases, not even saved.

It becomes their "shibboleth" of true believers, like Sabbathkeeping was for the cult I belonged to.

This whole idea that modern "tongues" is the same thing as biblical tongues is easily testable though. Have a guy who claims the gift speak in tongues to a group of independent "interpreters" contained in separate rooms with audio. See if their interpretations match. My guess on what would happen...everyone would have a different interpretation, and they would fight over which one has the "real interpretation".

I tried a similar experiment in a chat room once and this is, in essence, what happened. Two different "interpreters" interpreted the tongues guy in two different manners, then one claimed that he had the right interpretation and the other did not. My guess is that you would find the same thing if you did this in a church environment, if one guy wrote down his interpretation and another wrote down his interpretation, and they were compared. Of course, it would have to be more elaborate than this test to prevent collusion, though.
 
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"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. "

The Tribulation period is God pouring out His wrath, how is it that those who are His suffer these things when we are not appointed to His wrath?
 
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But, you have to understand that in their culture, if they don't speak in tongues, some aren't even considered saved.
Absolutely right!

I spoke to a Pentecostal once who implied that I did not receive the Holy Spirit if I did not speak in tongues. I tried to reason with him out of the scriptures but he kept repeating what his church's doctrine was on the issue. So I gave up. If any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant (1 CORINTHIANS 14:38)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Absolutely right!

I spoke to a Pentecostal once who implied that I did not receive the Holy Spirit if I did not speak in tongues. I tried to reason with him out of the scriptures but he kept repeating what his church's doctrine was on the issue. So I gave up. If any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant (1 CORINTHIANS 14:38)
Yes, in essence, that's all you can do.

I worked in jail ministry and the head chaplain was Pentecostal. It was obvious that he believed non-Pentecostals are inferior. I find it very hard to work in a parachurch ministry with individuals who believe these sorts of things.

I asked him directly what he thought on this, and he used elusive language and told me he thought I would accept the truth when I was ready for it :D
 
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That is not correct.

Some will get the victory over the mark (Revelation 15:2).
Keep reading..."They overcame by the blood and their testimony AND LOVED NOT THEIR LIVES TO THE DEATH "

They died.

The bible says ALL TAKE THE MARK. every man woman and child.
Ask yourself why it adds "every man w&c."
The bible - take the mark or die
Postribs -nobody dies and Christian's all live through the gt.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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That is a mental non truth.

In the parable of the virgins,the wise were wise due to oil. They were ALL watching and waiting,not for a false groom and subsequent hell on earth,but waiting to be taken to heaven.

The foolish were NOT WORTHY.
Jesus said "...but pray that you may be counted WORTHY to escape...."

Your entire premise is backwards. Those leaving in the rapture are intimate with Jesus. They love Him and His appearing. Those in love with their groom have no trouble dying for him (the opposite of the false testimony postribs say of us).
The ONLY rude awakening coming is the rapture will only involve those watching and waiting for the groom. Those mocking us will stay.
Kinda like with Noah and what he endured.


But maybe you haven't read where ALL TAKE THE MARK?
So,most likely none of you will see the end of the gt.Unless you take the mark.
The five foolish virgins were not watching their spiritual condition.

This has nothing to do with holding onto their newspapers with one hand, and holding onto the Bible with the other, and playing "pin the tail on the AntiChrist" like dispensationalists do.

Dispensationalists, who believe in a pretribulation rapture, will often claim that non-dispensationalists are more sinful than them, because they are watching for Jesus with their newspaper and their Bibles in hand, and having "prophecy conferences" and "prophecy updates".

The reality is that any Christian with common sense knows that their last moment could be anytime. They could suffer an aneurism or an auto crash or a plane could crash into their home. Life is fragile.

Yet, the panic-stricken, Chicken Little dispensationalists are running about declaring that Jesus might return at any moment for the Rapture, and you'd better be ready.

They are also claiming that the "wrath of God" is the Tribulation, and not the eschatalogical wrath of God coming on all mankind.

Believers have already escaped the wrath of God, in terms of his judgment. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1). Dispensationalists have distorted the the view of God's wrath to be the end-time Tribulation.

It is true that God judges rebellious mankind through the events surrounding Jesus' return. Christians won't suffer any of that wrath. In fact, they will witness to the truthfulness of the Gospel unto the end.

Yet, dispensationalism sells people a chance to bail out of the entire events surrounding this. Supposedly only the Jewish Christians who witness will suffer through the events surrounding the Tribulation.

In other words, their focus is on avoiding suffering, and not on eternal life. They are almost as bad as the Health, Wealth, and Prosperity guys in my opinion.

False beliefs lead to unmet expectations, which leads to disillusionment. I see dispensationalism in the same light as health, wealth and prosperity teachers in this respect. If their bail-out doesn't occur, I wonder how many of them will display the lack of genuine faith. Some, I suspect...others I think are just deceived by the false pretribulation rapture teaching.
 
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First, it is not only Baptists who don't believe that modern babbling called "tongues" is not a correct representation of it. There are plenty of others including Lutherans, Presbyterians, and many other Christians who consider Pentecostals/charismatics to be odd and deceived. To be honest, about every Christian I know other than Pentecostals/Charismatics consider them to be "off". They may not say this in front of them, but this is the truth. Some are too polite to say it, but the overall view is that they are immature and fixated on juvenile stuff, and their church services are disordered.

Second, interpreters were needed concerning speaking in tongues because the audiences were mixed. Let's propose a scenario. The speaker all of a sudden starts speaking in Swahili, and he did not know it previously. A Swahili man is present in the meeting, and he understands the words of the speaker, but he doesn't know the common language of the crowd. An interpreter, who knows Swahili or is gifted at that moment by the Holy Spirit, interprets for the crowd what the speaker is saying. This would provide independent verification of the miracle.

Third, no one claims that "we don't need your power or gifts" in regards to the Holy Spirit. Your claim is that someone who doesn't believe in the modern claims about "tongues" doesn't believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is clearly a lie. For instance, I do acknowledge that the Church is dependent upon the Holy Spirit and his gifts, and so does every Christian I know. Just because we don't believe in YOUR CLAIMS and the claims of PENTECOSTALS/CHARISMATICS does not mean that we don't believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Regarding Paul's remark in 1 Cor 14:14, there is nothing in these verses which negates a real, human language.

1 Corinthians 14:13-15 13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Here are some notes in this regard:

1 Corinthians 14:14 14:14–15 When believers address God in an unlearned language, their human spirit is involved but not their mind, because they do not understand what they say. When the mind is involved, the believer speaks with understanding, and then the people who hear benefit from what is being said.

By the way, I have never been in a Pentecostal environment (and likely will never visit a Pentecostal church), but my understanding is that it is RARE that anyone interprets for those babbling in their version of "tongues" in their meetings, and interpretation was MANDATED by Scripture. So, even if their alleged babbbling is real tongues, why are they not obedient to Scripture and why isn't someone providing an interpretation?

And, finally, regarding "praying in the Spirit", I simply view this as praying through the agency of the Holy Spirit to God, and I would view it mostly as mental prayer rather than spoken prayer. I do believe a person can pray through the Spirit without words, because the Holy Spirit intercedes even when I am unable to formulate thoughts.

For instance, once I was involved in a serious accident and knocked senseless, but I was still conscious. I could not formulate thoughts but was praying in the Spirit to God regarding the situation. That would be a prime example of praying in the Spirit.

Regarding Pentecostal/charismatic claims that only people speaking in tongues can properly pray to God, and that they have reached some new level that others are not at, nonsense! I categorically reject their claims regarding being "spirit filled' and claiming that others are not, and need to come up their level and experience true empowerment. And, that is exactly what many or most of them teach. Unless you babble in mindless tongues, you are not on level 2. They may not tell you that openly, but if you dig down deep enough into the claims of Pentecostal denominations, that is what they believe. Some even claim that you aren't even a believer if you don't speak in tongues, although this is the more cultic fringe.
"

""Second, interpreters were needed concerning speaking in tongues because the audiences were mixed. ""

Lol
There are thousands of videos of evangelists preaching with interpreters.
None that I have EVER seen use 5 or 8 interpreters.

You guys didn't formulate your "interpretation" of scripture very well.
I just blew a hole in it you could sail an aircraft carrier through.
You really painted yourself in a corner.

Let's see if what the modern church full of the Holy Spirit practices is biblical.
A person delivers a POROPHECY (not a prayer) in a MEETING.
AHEM, NOBODY KNOWS WHAT WAS SPOKEN.
ONE INTERPRETS.
Thank you Jesus your word is confirmed.
(Totally biblical)
You mock it.
Nothing new.

I,as a charismatic,have heard many messages from heaven in meetings. Thousands maybe

Were all under the inspiration?
No
Were Any of them praying?
No
Singing as a congeration?
Yes
One person singing?
No

I speak from experience. My experience is CONFIRMED IN THE WORD OF GOD.

YOU find it necessary to attack and mock.
Nothing new. That component is actually confirmed also.

You are totally guessing and have the tongues you imagine in your mind as not only a known language,but also a unknown language to those receiving it.

Your deal is out of mans mind and poorly thought out.
You never thought it thought it through that if it is to evangelize some in another country there is no need for an interpreter.
Too funny
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The five foolish virgins were not watching their spiritual condition.

This has nothing to do with holding onto their newspapers with one hand, and holding onto the Bible with the other, and playing "pin the tail on the AntiChrist" like dispensationalists do.

Dispensationalists, who believe in a pretribulation rapture, will often claim that non-dispensationalists are more sinful than them, because they are watching for Jesus with their newspaper and their Bibles in hand, and having "prophecy conferences" and "prophecy updates".

The reality is that any Christian with common sense knows that their last moment could be anytime. They could suffer an aneurism or an auto crash or a plane could crash into their home. Life is fragile.

Yet, the panic-stricken, Chicken Little dispensationalists are running about declaring that Jesus might return at any moment for the Rapture, and you'd better be ready.

They are also claiming that the "wrath of God" is the Tribulation, and not the eschatalogical wrath of God coming on all mankind.

Believers have already escaped the wrath of God, in terms of his judgment. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1). Dispensationalists have distorted the the view of God's wrath to be the end-time Tribulation.

It is true that God judges rebellious mankind through the events surrounding Jesus' return. Christians won't suffer any of that wrath. In fact, they will witness to the truthfulness of the Gospel unto the end.

Yet, dispensationalism sells people a chance to bail out of the entire events surrounding this. Supposedly only the Jewish Christians who witness will suffer through the events surrounding the Tribulation.

In other words, their focus is on avoiding suffering, and not on eternal life. They are almost as bad as the Health, Wealth, and Prosperity guys in my opinion.

False beliefs lead to unmet expectations, which leads to disillusionment. I see dispensationalism in the same light as health, wealth and prosperity teachers in this respect. If their bail-out doesn't occur, I wonder how many of them will display the lack of genuine faith. Some, I suspect...others I think are just deceived by the false pretribulation rapture teaching.
""The five foolish virgins were not watching their spiritual condition""
Bingo. You got one right.
Then you proceed to go on with nonsense about "dispensations" as if some it's some bogeyman
You are mired there