The easy way to spot a false grace message

[JGIG]

Preacher, not to intrude on this post, but you have been a member here for 6 days, and you feel like you can judge people you have not met, barely communicated with, and maybe read only a few of their posts? A certainly no history with, unless in fact, you are a returning member, who decided to come back to jump on the bashing bandwagon?

I think you need to stand back and maybe post from the Bible, before you start making people into Pharisees here, for posting Bible verses in the BIBLE Discussion Forum.

That applies to the rest of you!

There are a few people posting Scriptures, and a LOT of people calling others down. I'm not getting involved in the discussion, but this thread truly shows "pack" mentality, as Peter posted, when a newbie comes on and jumps right in condemning people he does not even know, because those people seem in the majority.

That is what the prohibition on hypergrace was about. About NOT being slanderous and mean to one another. The response in this thread is rather shocking, and an embarrassment. I cannot believe some of you would dare to call yourselves Christians! You revile and you disgrace yourselves! You show no evidence of "turning the other check" - 777x77 times! Well, except maybe ISIT, whom I have not seen calling anyone names. Just posting Scriptures. If you don't agree with his verses, because they are out of context, or mistranslated in KJV English, for example, then please counter them. If not, then show the love of God, and show that according to Paul in 1 Cor. 13, love is the most important quality that will remain.

"Now these three remain:
faith, hope, and love.
But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor. 13:13

If you don't agree with ISIT, and you have no Biblical considerations to add, then proper decorum would dictate you leave the thread. It will quickly drop to page 2 and out of sight, if all the naysayers walked away!

Rant over!

PS. I did not come here to defend ISIT or anyone else. But after reading a few pages, I just felt a little bit of godly rebuke was in order. Sorry if that comes across as unforgiving. I do forgive people for their rude comments and behaviour, but I would prefer this behaviour did not continue.

When did you become a moderator, Angela? You have no more or less authority with your nearly 8000 posts than Preacher does with his nearly 100 posts. Let folks measure Preacher by what he posts instead of trying to poison the well.

And you wrote about ISIT, " . . . whom I have not seen calling anyone names. Just posting Scriptures." Guess you missed it when he posted the Hitler stuff.

Interesting the folks you're aligning yourself with here for the past several months. I've seen you go from building up believers about who they are in Christ to going into attack mode and tearing down those you disagree with/misunderstand. I'm a bit surprised and very disappointed. Re-read your post above and ask yourself if it was truly written in love as you claim.

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

Peter on how we should live:-

Be Holy
Just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy."
1 Peter 1:15-16

Have reverent fear
Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.
1 Peter 1:17

Live for righteousness
He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness.
1 Peter 2:24

Done with sin
Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.
1 Peter 4:1

It is odd that many on this thread deny these realities preached by Peter.
So who are they following and what faith do they represent?

 

[preacher4truth]

That applies to the rest of you!


That is what the prohibition on hypergrace was about.

For the record I know nothing of hyper grace nor am I discussing it.

About NOT being slanderous and mean to one another.

Agreed, others should not imply that others are lost and that they themselves are sinless which is why I responded.

The response in this thread is rather shocking, and an embarrassment.

Agreed but not shocked. Others implying that some are lost is ridiculous simply because they do not believe in sinless perfection.

I cannot believe some of you would dare to call yourselves Christians!

You revile and you disgrace yourselves! You show no evidence of "turning the other check" - 777x77 times!

"Now these three remain:
faith, hope, and love.
But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor. 13:13

If you don't agree with ISIT, and you have no Biblical considerations to add, then proper decorum would dictate you leave the thread. It will quickly drop to page 2 and out of sight, if all the naysayers walked away!

Rant over!

PS. I did not come here to defend ISIT or anyone else. But after reading a few pages, I just felt a little bit of godly rebuke was in order. Sorry if that comes across as unforgiving. I do forgive people for their rude comments and behaviour, but I would prefer this behaviour did not continue.

With all due respect, you've cherry picked one of my posts to take me to task over what I said of others behavior, then you go ahead and do the exact same thing above to many others?

I am not going to apologize for what I see of how others judge others here as if they are sinless and will make a biblical application of such behavior that actually fits. It is apparent in this thread this is what has been going on - implying that all others are sinners but themselves. Others have also claimed the same passage in Luke 18:11ff for such behavior and rightly so, so there was my 'biblical consideration'. Those who look down on all others as sinners and not on themselves as such, what do the Scriptures say about them? I used the words of Christ, and won't apologize.

As far as my time on here, I suppose I should apologize for only being here 6 days? Is calling me a newbie supposed to be demeaning? I gave a godly rebuke just as you have toward those in this thread who are calling others lost by implication and talking of their sinless lives. As for posting Scripture, take a good look at my posts, I mention them often. There was no need IMO to go on the attack on me over this, it is unwarranted.

 

[PeterJens]

From #220 - so all OSAS followers support ongoing sin??

Would all of you who believe in OSAS and also support ongoing sin please respond and verify this truth! ? LOL!!!!

I don't think you will get anyone who acknowledges this - or maybe I am wrong - I haven't run across any OSAS believers who say this . . .

This is very difficult language.
If a person said sin is ok, then obviously they would be attacked.

What is said is no one stops sinning. And to expect to stop sinning is heresy.
Now this is exactly the position many have taken, are argued it and condemned others
using this as a justification.

Now logically this is the flip side of the coin to say sinning is ok.

Where deception comes in is the dishonesty people use to try and hide their position,
and then accuse those who identify it as evil liars.

Now my position is though I occasionally stumble, I have forgiveness through Christ for
the forgiveness of this sin, if I confess it. I believe Peter, Paul and Jesus call us to walk
a righteous, sinless life, in the expectation it can be achieved.

The real question is what is this life and how can we identify it?
Many mock even approaching such a question, as they have tried and failed by their own
ideas.

Church History is full of Holiness movements which have had this as their goal and aim, so
it is a recurring theme of our history.

What is also a recurring theme is the enemies of anything pure and holy are always present.
The enemy will always oppose God people walking in the fulfillment of Gods promises.

 

[preacher4truth]

When did you become a moderator, Angela? You have no more or less authority with your nearly 8000 posts than Preacher does with his nearly 100 posts. Let folks measure Preacher by what he posts instead of trying to poison the well.

And you wrote about ISIT, " . . . whom I have not seen calling anyone names. Just posting Scriptures." Guess you missed it when he posted the Hitler stuff.

Interesting the folks you're aligning yourself with here for the past several months. I've seen you go from building up believers about who they are in Christ to going into attack mode and tearing down those you disagree with/misunderstand. I'm a bit surprised and very disappointed. Re-read your post above and ask yourself if it was truly written in love as you claim.

-JGIG

Thank you JGIG, much appreciated. Not sure why I am being singled out as not using Scripture, being a newbie, attempt to being shamed as not a Christian myself and all of that, but it's OK I can forgive that. FTR I have been careful to use Scripture and will endeavor to do so. Others implying some are lost is uncalled for, others claiming to be sinless while talking down of others has a Biblical application. Thanks again for taking this up.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The problem can be defined using plain scripture.

Romans 4:4-5King James Version (KJV)

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

There is no middle road for the Gospel. The way is narrow and it is narrow because there is but one way. The Way, Jesus Christ. Our salvation is not of works, but faith. Saved by grace through faith.

I understand what you are saying, however. People often quote extremes, perceived extremes, but just maybe they aren't extremes. It may just be that, black and white. The truth and the lie. There is no middle ground for a truth, the truth is rather blunt. It is what it is. The whole grace versus law debate, for example. As far as salvation is concerned, there is no middle ground that would agree with God's word (as shown in the above verse on works).

JGIG's point is that a person cannot take grace and works and be in the middle otherwise they will nullify the two. Grace would no longer be grace and works no longer works. Either it is free or its a debt owed.

Again...


Romans 4:4-5King James Version (KJV)

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Hi there ben!. I haven't run across you in a while.
I think I am still not being understood.
Let me use your example and try again while I'm coffeed up.

In your example, here is one of the tensions I am talking about.
You are saved by grace through faith.........................................Faith without works is dead.
They are both the word of God.
You can't discard the one for the other.
That would be to fall into a ditch because of imbalance.

I think that's what that poster a while back was trying to say, whose post I agreed with. I don't think he meant that faith is dead without works of the law.

Does that help you to see what I'm trying to convey, bearded Ben?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Where is the Scripture to back up your 'ditch' theory? Where does God say to 'balance' Grace with Law? He doesn't. He says quite the opposite throughout the New Covenant Scriptures!

Are there exhortations for the believer to live holy and upright lives?

Yes.

Is our salvation based on what we do or do not do?

No.

Our salvation is based on what Christ has done for us and on His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood - we enter into Him by faith. And He CHANGES us. We are to

6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. (from Col. 2)​

And trust that

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (from Phil. 1)​

These are realities of how God does His work in us - we can trust Him, we can walk in thankfulness and not in fear \o/! He teaches us by His Grace (Tit. 2), and He's not 'fixing' the old you who was in Adam, but teaching you to walk in the newness of the Life of Christ in you! When we understand that, we can read the following and be encouraged and built up in Christ:

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (from Rom. 6)​

Folks (like InSpiritInTruth in post #241) need to stop using Romans 6 as a stick with which to beat believers over the head and start using it as the encouragement to build believers up in who they are in Christ and to walk in Him!

-JGIG

I was not talking about law and statutes at all...
I was definitely NOT saying you must not wear linen with wool, be physically circumcised, or wash your hands before you eat or anything similar. (Although I think you should wash your hands before you eat because it's eewey gross not to!) But you seem to have seen this in what I said, but as honestly as I can speak, this was in no way what I meant.

I guess if you want scripture to help convey what I meant, I can think of a few.
Correctly dividing the word.
Which ties in to not using imbalanced scales (unequal weights), which put everything in our favor, which is to marvel over His gracious words but then try to push over a cliff the words that disturb us - to the exclusion of other things God has said. (He detests unequal weights). He wants us to put the greater weight where the greater weight should go, but this doesn't mean to discard the words of lesser weight altogether. (Those things you should have done, but without neglecting the weightier matters.)

Does that make my intent more clear?
Good morning, by the way!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep God's words are still intact.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So then it must be asked.

If these passages are true as you are trying to insert them in context.

HOW CAN ANYONE LOSE SALVATION.

if I AM BORN OF GOD

and BECAUSE OF THAT I CAN NOT SIN

HOW CAN I LOSE SALVATION?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, the Spirit also purifies the heart bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Yes he does..

So how can we overpower the spirit. and come to the point we LOSE SALVATION?

face it man, Your scripture is destroying your argument against OSAS.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You guys just want to find fault in me and accuse me, as if this makes the words of God any less true. Don't believe if you wish, and accuse me all you want because your judgment of me does not matter, there is one who judges me, believe His words.

Nah, they just want you to prove you live according to the standard you are trying to impose on everyone else. Or prove to you you do not..

But thats ok, We know (wink)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is just a pack mentality. I praise the Lord you walk worthy of your Lord Jesus Christ.
Shame on those who mock and ridicule walking in righteousness, these are the enemies
of Christ.

Great honour is due to you for persecution for righteousness. Sad is the day when
walking and exalting right behaviour is deemed evil.

Another strawman. You have your own pack Dude, And your LIES about people saying walking in righteousness is evil is for the birds. And the people who liked your post follow your evil slanderous ways.

I can only wonder how CC lets this slanderous evil continue..
\

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They're too busy praying within themselves and thanking god they aren't like others...

don;t forget, pounding their chests in pride

 

[preacher4truth]

So then it must be asked.

If these passages are true as you are trying to insert them in context.

HOW CAN ANYONE LOSE SALVATION.

if I AM BORN OF GOD

and BECAUSE OF THAT I CAN NOT SIN

HOW CAN I LOSE SALVATION?

Winner!!!!!!!!!

 

[gb9]

don;t forget, pounding their chests in pride

that is the thing. they focus on self, self, self. it's all about God, not about us.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Thank you JGIG, much appreciated. Not sure why I am being singled out as not using Scripture, being a newbie, attempt to being shamed as not a Christian myself and all of that, but it's OK I can forgive that. FTR I have been careful to use Scripture and will endeavor to do so. Others implying some are lost is uncalled for, others claiming to be sinless while talking down of others has a Biblical application. Thanks again for taking this up.

She was responding to your post that insinuated those you didn't agree with were Pharisees, very busy praying: thank you that I am not like these others." So you DID use scripture, but you were making your own accusation, just as you claim others "not on your side" were doing.

Do you see what I mean? You say you were being shamed as not being a Christian (and it's good that you forgive them as you say you do!) but then you were saying others were Pharisees, which is also insinuating someone to not be a Christian.
So it is flying both ways, from both sides. Both sides could grow in humility and meekness - that includes all of us, no matter which "side" we choose to play whack-a-mole from.

God is not pleased with a defense of "he hit me first" or "but everyone is doing it!" Just like our own parents, He says, but you are MY child, and I say don't do it. Do not answer a slap with a slap, a revile with a revile, or a lack of love, meekness and humility with your own lack of love, meekness or humility.

 

[preacher4truth]

I have found a pretty simple way of spotting afalse grace message.

Same here.

The false grace message says sin (works of the flesh) still has dominion over you when you are born again of the Spirit and under grace. This means by definition that you are still a servant of sin.

No one here teaches what you accuse.

But thetrue grace message says when you are born again of the Spirit and truly under grace sin shall not have dominion over you. This means you are now made free from sin by Christ and are now alsomade a servant of righteousness.

Yes, that is what Scripture says, yet we still can commit sin, 1 John 1:8-10, which is also Scripture.

So when the false grace camp say works do not matter, they also include the works of the flesh=sin in the whole mix of works as they say do not matter.

No one is saying works do not matter.

Sin is a work people, and sin does matter, that is also why Jesus came and was crucified.

Sin is a work? Everyone here agrees that sin is grievous and we all hate sin. The bottom line is no one here preaches what you imply they do in the above, therefore there is no false grace preaching going on as you put it. You may want to apply some 2 Timothy 2:15 to your lopsided view of implied sinless perfection, it's frankly not biblical.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree that sin is a work...

 

[Stephen63]

Thank you JGIG, much appreciated. Not sure why I am being singled out as not using Scripture, being a newbie, attempt to being shamed as not a Christian myself and all of that, but it's OK I can forgive that. FTR I have been careful to use Scripture and will endeavor to do so. Others implying some are lost is uncalled for, others claiming to be sinless while talking down of others has a Biblical application. Thanks again for taking this up.

What I noticed is that you have been on here a week & judge people like you've been on here a couple of years. That always throws up a red flag.

 

[gb9]

What I noticed is that you have been on here a week & judge people like you've been on here a couple of years. That always throws up a red flag.

how about no one judge and leave that up to the Lord. he knows all, we do not.

 

[PeterJens]

Another strawman. You have your own pack Dude, And your LIES about people saying walking in righteousness is evil is for the birds. And the people who liked your post follow your evil slanderous ways.

I can only wonder how CC lets this slanderous evil continue..
\

Here is testimony that I am being accused of being evil.

If you make those who hold walking in righteousness is possible, evil and your enemies,
then this is no slander, but the truth.

You find it hard to accept by not supporting that which scripture clearly testifies to,
you are in rebellion against. Only the blind do not see this.

What do you think holiness movements have always been about and what I have been
sharing for months, to which you have continual called me a sinner in need of repentance
living in unbelief.

I actually expect nothing else from you my friend, as now I truly understand your position
and your miss-understanding of the gospel of grace.

I know the sin which you accuse me of, and how my faith in walking with Christ to you
is adding to His work, and you believe is denying faith in the cross, which I actually do have.

I pray for you, in your lostness and condemnation, to come to realise Christ died that we
might walk without sinning, in His glorious presence. Love needs to break out in your hard
heart and you be healed of the failures of old, to open up to a new heart of flesh and
sensitivity to His grace.