The end of the world is coming. What should we be looking for?

[Ahwatukee]

and even though saints/elect are identified with new testament churches ALL THROUGH THE WHOLE N.T. when we get to REVELATION the saints listed in REVELATION are not church members....ignorance.....

It is not ignorance, but proper exegesis D. The words saints and church are used interchangeably throughout the NT. But here in Revelation, the word church is only used within chapter 1 thru 3 and then abruptly disappears from use, with only the word "Hagios/Saints" being used thereafter. This should send a red flag up to those reading. It is the distinction made between the two words that support the church being alluded to as being caught up in Rev.4:1.

My pointe is that, if these two words were used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation as they are in the rest of the NT, then it would be a non issue. You'd think that after specifically and only using the word church throughout chapters 1 thru 3, that it would reappear at least once within Revelation chapter 4 through chapter 18, yet it does not.

The reader has to be open to God's clues within this book.

 

[dcontroversal]

It is not ignorance, but proper exegesis D. The words saints and church are used interchangeably throughout the NT. But here in Revelation, the word church is only used within chapter 1 thru 3 and then abruptly disappears from use, with only the word "Hagios/Saints" being used thereafter. This should send a red flag up to those reading. It is the distinction made between the two words that support the church being alluded to as being caught up in Rev.4:1.

My pointe is that, if these two words were used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation as they are in the rest of the NT, then it would be a non issue. You'd think that after specifically and only using the word church throughout chapters 1 thru 3, that it would reappear at least once within Revelation chapter 4 through chapter 18, yet it does not.

The reader has to be open to God's clues within this book.

God's consistence use of words over rides any and all supposed clues......and or ignorance of God's consistent use of words and verbiage....sorry not buying it......

The very word KEEP as applied unto the faithful church at Philadelphia and God's consistent use of the words saints and elect as applied unto saved, immersed church members trumps your supposed clues bro....and I say this with no heat or attitude.....

KEEP = preserve, protect, guard from loss, harm or injury NOT REMOVE

 

[Jackson123]

As I said, Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up with John representing it. It is hidden, masked, camouflaged, if you will. This is exactly why we no longer see the word "ekklesia/church" from chapter 4 onward.

There are clues in there for the reader to find, the voice that sounds like a trumpet, which I believe is an allusion to the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:17 in Paul's description of the gathering of the church. Another is the abrupt disuse of the word "ekklesia/church" which I believe is demonstrating that the church is no longer on the earth after Rev.4:1.

The biggest deterrent for the church not being gathered any time after the first seal, is because it is what initiates God's wrath, which as I have pointed out so many times, we are not appointed to suffer. When I bring this truth up, I am met with a myriad of apologetics stating that the seals are not God's wrath, nor the trumpets and some say just the trumpets and bowls and other just the bowls. Therefore in order to circumvent what I am telling them, they simply reinterpret what God's wrath is and when it takes place. They make a distinction between tribulation and wrath, man's wrath and God's wrath, etc. But I know that God's wrath begins when Jesus opens that fist seal and no one will ever move me from that position and that because I have studies this extensively for many years.
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How you prove rev 4 is allusion brother. To my knowledge allusion mean implicitly.

Ponder it

4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

to me it is explicit statemenr, that God will use John to prophecy about what will happen

 

[Ahwatukee]

God's consistence use of words over rides any and all supposed clues......and or ignorance of God's consistent use of words and verbiage....sorry not buying it......

And you should go with that D. That said, within chapters 1 thu 3 God is consistent with the use of the word church. From chapter 4 onward, He is consistent with the word Saints. The words church and saints are never used interchangeably within the book of Revelation. You should be recognizing what this implies. If you are "not buying it" then you are not being complete in your exegesis for the sake of what you are holding on to.

The very word KEEP as applied unto the faithful church at Philadelphia and God's consistent use of the words saints and elect as applied unto saved, immersed church members trumps your supposed clues bro....and I say this with no heat or attitude.....

The word "Hagios/Saints" is not used in the letter to the church of Philadelphia. As I said, if the words church and saints were used interchangeably throughout Revelation, then it would be a non issue. But because of the distinction being made and the abrupt disuse of the word church after the end of chapter 3, it is an issue. And that issue is that the church is caught up at Rev.4:1, which is exactly why we don't see the word church used from that point forward.

KEEP = preserve, protect, guard from loss, harm or injury NOT REMOVE

The scripture is "I will keep you out of the hour of trail" meaning that the church will not even be exposed, "kept out of" that time of tribulation. Therefore, he will protect us by keeping us out of that time of tribulation, not through it.

 

[abcdef]

Brother Ahwatukee

I have great respect and admiration towards you.

And I have found that we agree on many things outside of the prophetic field.

----

So let me give you some thing to think about, some thing that I have tried to get you to think about since almost the beginning,

Even you have stated that the beast is Roman related.

The 6th head "is" at John's time. Rev 17:10

Who is the 7th head? And how long does he live?

Who is the 8th head? The one who heads the divided Rome?

Which head was in power from the time from the fall of the Roman Empire until now? Who is the iron legs/toes right now?

----

I am not with any group, trying to convert anybody to some denomination, to make you change congregations.

I'm just a person, one person.

But when we study, we must keep an open mind, or we will be like the Pharisees, who keep to their traditions, teachings.

You know, that you have showed me lots of things, I hope, that I have shown you a few things too.

 

[louis]

Romans 9:6-8 has nothing to do with what snoozy wrote. That is what I meant by being careful.

You insinuated I took out of context Romans 9:6-8 which states believers in Christs Way are true Israel, but you did not elaborate how I supposedly took it out of context.

 

[louis]

Hey Louis....If I can let me help you understand a different version to what you just stated.

First of all, Jesus is and was Jewish. the Bible is a Jewish Book. Inspired by God but written by Jewish Hands. FYI

If one looks to Mat 24:15-20, Mark 13: 14-18, Rev 12 one finds parallel verses. Rev 12 gives one more information but is the same as those spoke of in Matthew and Mark. The Woman is Israel and the other two chapters will tell us that the 'Great Tribulation' spoken of by Jesus in Matthew and Mark begins at this time, the second half of Daniel's 70th week or Jacob's troubles. It will last 3 1/2 years and will kill some 2/3 of the Jewish Population that are alive or have not been "caught-up" (Raptured) along with the Church (Body of Jesus Christ).

Jesus tells us in Hosea 5:15.."I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

The people who are calling to HIM are the ones that are fleeing in all three Chapters. These will be the Jewish remnant that will help populate the Millennium. What they are to do in the Millennium is another post.

Those Gentiles (non-believers who have NOT taken the "Mark of the Beast") who survive Daniel's 70th week (all 7 years) will populate the the Millennium. (Another post)

The OT Saints, Church Saints, the Martyred Saints, their Fellowservant Saints and their Bretheren Saints, The 144,000 and the 2 Witnesses will be present during the Millennium and will likely live in the 50 mi.x 50 mi.Temple constructed near north of Jerusalem..


Hope this helps....

May you have a blessed day Louis
Blade

Bladerunner, you are again posting multiple claims without providing scriptural support. Instead of just giving us an unsupported diatribe as many do, would it not be better to support one or two claims with Gods Word?
You missed Luke 21 that also correlates with Mark 13, and Matthew 24.
You also did not respond to my post #254 contradicting your perspective in post 244.
I will post it again below, in case you missed it.

Post 254:
I will address your first two claims in your latest retort.
First: If the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (Mark 13:14) is not the Antichrist standing in the hearts of the Lords people, but instead is his standing in a rebuilt third stone building temple in which God dwells; you are then contradicting the scriptures I previously posted indicating the Lord does not dwell in stone edifices, but instead dwells in people.

Claim number 2: for some kind of an idolatrous object placed within some stone building representing some object that the people of earth will worship/love does not stand to common sense reason.
The common sense reason why the people of the world will love the Antichrist is because he will cause craft to prosper (Daniel 8:25), which is to say, he will bring about a great economic time.
He will therefore stand in our hearts (where he ought not (Mark 13:14)), in place of God.
Simple common sense reasoning. Not some mumbo jumbo dogma.

Daniel 8:25 [FONT=&quot]And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

[/FONT]Mark 13:14 [FONT=&quot]But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[louis]

The rapture marks the beginning of the Tribulation.

The spiritual ascension (rapture) of the Lords people comes at the end of the Great tribulation, which correlates with the blessing on day 1,335 in Daniel 12:12.

Daniel 12:12 [FONT=&quot]Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

First: If the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (Mark 13:14) is not the Antichrist standing in the hearts of the Lords people, but instead is his standing in a rebuilt third stone building temple in which God dwells; you are then contradicting the scriptures I previously posted indicating the Lord does not dwell in stone edifices, but instead dwells in people.

No one said that God would be dwelling in the temple, but that when the antichrist makes confirms his covenant with Israel, it will allow them to build their temple. It doesn't mean that God will be dwelling in it. Just as there was no ark of the covenant in the temple when Jesus was on the earth, neither will there be in the coming temple. That fact is that since Jesus quote from Daniel regarding the abomination being set up and it has yet to be fulfilled, then it must still be future.

Claim number 2: for some kind of an idolatrous object placed within some stone building representing some object that the people of earth will worship/love does not stand to common sense reason.

That there will be a literal image is supported by the fact that the false prophet will order the people to make an image of the beast, which will be that abomination. Dan.9:27 has the ruler, that antichrist, setting up an abomination.

He will therefore stand in our hearts (where he ought not (Mark 13:14)), in place of God. Simple common sense reasoning. Not some mumbo jumbo dogma.

The antichrist standing in the temple of our bodies is not supported by the context, but a literal idolatrous object is in view. To attempt to make it refer to the temple of our bodies is to distort the scripture. As I previously pointed out, how could the antichrist being in the temple of our bodies cause all of Israel to flee to the mountains of Judea? It's ridiculous!

 

[louis]

Louis, this is good to know.... When you get down to studying the Book of Daniel, you will find that the Abomination of Desolate which happened in 167 BC was foretold by Daniel and this was what Jesus was referring to that it would happen again in future times. The key to that is the "streets and walls will be built"


Daniel is a fascinating book and actually begin the Age of the Gentiles. A hint to help you. chapters 2 through 8r are written in Aramaic depicting the events in these concern the gentiles more than the Jewish people.and Chapter 9 through 12 returns to Hebrew. Also, be advised that the chapters are not in order as they happen.

Have fun.

Bladerunner, you also seemed to have missed my response in post 275 contradicting (with scriptures) your 2nd century BC perspective for these events in Daniel chapters 7 through 9.
Here it is again:
POST 275: The events in Daniel chapter 7 and 8 (that include the 70th week with the abomination of desolation in Daniel 9:27), the angel informs in Daniel 8:17 & 19 correspond to the end times. What end times do you understand occurred in the 2nd century BC?

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The spiritual ascension (rapture) of the Lords people comes at the end of the Great tribulation, which correlates with the blessing on day 1,335 in Daniel 12:12.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Greetings Louis!

There is no such thing as a spiritual rapture. The word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" always refers to the physical body standing up again. Jesus is the example in that, after 3 days and nights he reentered the same body that was put in the tomb and resurrected in an immortal and glorified body.

Also, the gathering of the church cannot come after the end of the great tribulation, because it would put the church through God's wrath which we are not appointed to suffer. Therefore, the church must be gathered prior to God's wrath which is initiated by the first seal being opened. In further support of this, Rev.19:6-8 shows the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14 it shows the bride following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the fine linen that she received in 19:6-8. If the church is following the Lord out of heaven, then would have to already be in heaven.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The verse above is speaking about those who make it through God's wrath alive until Jesus returns, they being the great tribulation saints and the remnant of Israel who will have been cared for during that last 3 1/2 years. The mention of 1290 days and 1335 days will most likely be the judgment of the sheep and the goats, as well as other premillennial business.

 

[louis]

No one said that God would be dwelling in the temple, but that when the antichrist makes confirms his covenant with Israel, it will allow them to build their temple. It doesn't mean that God will be dwelling in it. Just as there was no ark of the covenant in the temple when Jesus was on the earth, neither will there be in the coming temple. That fact is that since Jesus quote from Daniel regarding the abomination being set up and it has yet to be fulfilled, then it must still be future.

I agree that it is future, and thus Daniel chapters 7 through 9 are not some 2nd century BC event.

That there will be a literal image is supported by the fact that the false prophet will order the people to make an image of the beast, which will be that abomination. Dan.9:27 has the ruler, that antichrist, setting up an abomination.
[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Do you understand propaganda is imagery? When the Antichrist brings about marvelous economic prosperity, he will also propagate an image/propaganda of his system to the people that they will love/worship.
This is common sense reasoning. Where is common sense reasoning in that billions of people are going to love/worship some object placed in a stone building? That is kindergarten dogma.

The antichrist standing in the temple of our bodies is not supported by the context, but a literal idolatrous object is in view. To attempt to make it refer to the temple of our bodies is to distort the scripture. As I previously pointed out, how could the antichrist being in the temple of our bodies cause all of Israel to flee to the mountains of Judea? It's ridiculous!

Let's see what will be predominant in our hearts when the system of the beast brings about economic prosperity.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Do you understand propaganda is imagery? When the Antichrist brings about marvelous economic prosperity, he will also propagate an image/propaganda of his system to the people that they will love/worship.
This is common sense reasoning. Where is common sense reasoning in that billions of people are going to love/worship some object placed in a stone building? That is kindergarten dogma.

This "propaganda imagery" is not what the scripture is speaking of. This is going to be a literal image of the beast that will be placed in the literal coming temple in Israel on the temple mount in the holy place, which is the room just outside of the Holy of Holies. You are interpreting the literal as being spiritual or symbolic and that is not the meaning of the scripture.

Regarding the abomination, there will obviously be a literal object within the holy place that causes Israel to flee out to the mountains of Judea. Imagery is not going to do that. They will be fleeing because an idolatrous image will be placed with in the temple. And according to the law given from God through Moses, that is blasphemous.

Let's see what will be predominant in our hearts when the system of the beast brings about economic prosperity.

We (the church) will not be here during the time of the antichrists reign, as the church must be gone prior to the beginning of God's wrath. It is the great tribulation saints and the woman/Israel and who will be upon the earth during the time of God's wrath, the day of the Lord. The church will have already been gathered.

Where is common sense reasoning in that billions of people are going to love/worship some object placed in a stone building? That is kindergarten dogma.

People are going to worship the beast and his image and receive his mark, because they will believe him to be God and that because of the miracles, signs and wonders that the false prophet will be performing.

 

[Johnny_B]

It is not ignorance, but proper exegesis D. The words saints and church are used interchangeably throughout the NT. But here in Revelation, the word church is only used within chapter 1 thru 3 and then abruptly disappears from use, with only the word "Hagios/Saints" being used thereafter. This should send a red flag up to those reading. It is the distinction made between the two words that support the church being alluded to as being caught up in Rev.4:1.

My pointe is that, if these two words were used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation as they are in the rest of the NT, then it would be a non issue. You'd think that after specifically and only using the word church throughout chapters 1 thru 3, that it would reappear at least once within Revelation chapter 4 through chapter 18, yet it does not.

The reader has to be open to God's clues within this book.

Speaking of the book of Revelation isn't it interesting that it speaks of the beast given a voice. I remember in the '80 when the checkout register would say the price of the item bought, people freaked out and said it was the beast. Yet now they have all these things like google, siri and the others in there house and no one is in an up roar as they were in the 80's. Not saying that these things are or are not the beast, I'm just saying that people are callus to it now.

For me it just shows that if those things are literal that people will accept it no problem.

 

[lizzie1]

Matthew 24:5–8 gives us some important clues for discerning the approach of the end times: “Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.” An increase in false messiahs, an increase in warfare, and increases in famines, plagues, and natural disasters—these are signs of the end times. In this passage, though, we are given a warning: we are not to be deceived, because these events are only the beginning of birth pains; the end is still to come.

Some interpreters point to every earthquake, every political upheaval, and every attack on Israel as a sure sign that the end times are rapidly approaching. While the events may signal the approach of the last days, they are not necessarily indicators that the end times have arrived. The apostle Paul warned that the last days would bring a marked increase in false teaching. “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons” (1 Timothy 4:1). The last days are described as “perilous times” because of the increasingly evil character of man and people who actively “oppose the truth” (2 Timothy 3:1–9; see also 2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Other possible signs would include a rebuilding of a Jewish temple in Jerusalem, increased hostility toward Israel, and advances toward a one-world government. The most prominent sign of the end times, however, is the nation of Israel. In 1948, Israel was recognized as a sovereign state, essentially for the first time since AD 70. God promised Abraham that his posterity would have Canaan as “an everlasting possession” (Genesis 17:8), and Ezekiel prophesied a physical and spiritual resuscitation of Israel (Ezekiel 37). Having Israel as a nation in its own land is important in light of end-times prophecy because of Israel’s prominence in eschatology (Daniel 10:14; 11:41; Revelation 11:8).

With these signs in mind, we can be wise and discerning in regard to the expectation of the end times. We should not, however, interpret any of these singular events as a clear indication of the soon arrival of the end times. God has given us enough information that we can be prepared, and that is what we are called to be as our hearts cry out, “Come, Lord Jesus” (Revelation 22:20).

 

[louis]

Greetings Louis!

There is no such thing as a spiritual rapture. The word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" always refers to the physical body standing up again. Jesus is the example in that, after 3 days and nights he reentered the same body that was put in the tomb and resurrected in an immortal and glorified body.

Greetings Ahwatukee,
I believe the blessing on day 1335 spoken of in Daniel 12:12 is the spiritual rapture. Whether in heaven if passed away, or on earth if among the surviving remnant, the saints will then be with and like Christ.

In the King James Bible there are only three areas in which we find the description "caught up", where individuals are caught up to heaven.
The "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 we know as the one in which the current rapture perspective is based.
In 2 Corinthians 12:2 & 4 Paul describes an individual having been "caught up" up to heaven, but then later this individual relates his experience to Paul on the earth, thereby indicating the individual still present on earth.
The third area in which being "caught up" to heaven is described is in Revelation 12:5, where a travailing woman after giving birth to a man child, the child is then caught up to God in heaven.
After the child is caught up to God in heaven, we then see the devil who has been cast to the earth, going off to make war with the remnant offspring of the woman (Rev 12:17); thereby indicating the male child being still physically on the earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and do shall be ever with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.3 [FONT=&quot]And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth [/FONT]4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Also, the gathering of the church cannot come after the end of the great tribulation, because it would put the church through God's wrath which we are not appointed to suffer. Therefore, the church must be gathered prior to God's wrath which is initiated by the first seal being opened. In further support of this, Rev.19:6-8 shows the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14 it shows the bride following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the fine linen that she received in 19:6-8. If the church is following the Lord out of heaven, then would have to already be in heaven.



The verse above is speaking about those who make it through God's wrath alive until Jesus returns, they being the great tribulation saints and the remnant of Israel who will have been cared for during that last 3 1/2 years. The mention of 1290 days and 1335 days will most likely be the judgment of the sheep and the goats, as well as other premillennial business.[/COLOR]

After being cast to the earth, the devil goes off to war against the remnant offspring (the male child) who spiritually ascended to heaven and God (Revelation 12:5 & 17).
The devil wars against the remnant saints through the beast and the Antichrist with all the material goodies (idols) his system of great prosperity will provide all mankind (Daniel 7:25, 8:25; Revelation 11:7, 13:7).
The wrath of God commences upon the worshipers of the beast and his image following the 3.5 years his system is allotted to continue (Daniel 7:25; Revelation 13:5), which is also at the end of the 2nd half of the 7 year period in Daniel 9:27.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Speaking of the book of Revelation isn't it interesting that it speaks of the beast given a voice. I remember in the '80 when the checkout register would say the price of the item bought, people freaked out and said it was the beast. Yet now they have all these things like google, siri and the others in there house and no one is in an up roar as they were in the 80's. Not saying that these things are or are not the beast, I'm just saying that people are callus to it now.

I agree with you on this in that people are being conditioned by the use of electronic crediting and debiting which has been performed by swiping cards and cell phone bank apps. And now for the last couple of years businesses in Sweden have been implanting their employees with RFID chips through which they make purchases. And now we have a company here in the US that is doing the same. It won't be long before we start seeing people paying for things via the scanning of their hands. Regarding this, people just think that it is technology and have no idea that it is the technology that will be used for the mark.

 

[dcontroversal]

The spiritual ascension (rapture) of the Lords people comes at the end of the Great tribulation, which correlates with the blessing on day 1,335 in Daniel 12:12.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Amen to the bolded and that is what the bible teaches...there is no secret, imminent return of Christ where the faithful saved go poof and disappear en masse while the world wonders where we went......it will occur after the period labeled the great tribulation and even JESUS himself tells us this in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and if he did not step in when he does there would be NO FLESH LEFT ALIVE which indicates he STEPS IN during a very graphic, lethal time in hun history....and PAUL's language bears this out as well....AFTER the man of sin has been revealed for who he is, after a great apo-hystamie from the truth.....THE beast wears out, makes war and over comes the SAINTS of GOD

SAINTS identified as saved, immersed church members throughout the WHOLE N.T. and REVELATION is written to 7 churches which make up the gambit of every church to be found on the planet.....

 

[Ahwatukee]

Greetings Ahwatukee,
I believe the blessing on day 1335 spoken of in Daniel 12:12 is the spiritual rapture. Whether in heaven if passed away, or on earth if among the surviving remnant, the saints will then be with and like Christ.

Morning! I would advise doing a study on the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection." When the Lord descends to the atmosphere, the dead will be resurrected into their immortal and glorified bodies. Those who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies. Both groups which make up the entire church, at the time of the gathering will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies. There is not spiritual resurrection. When a believer in Christ dies, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presences of the Lord. This is not the resurrection nor when the living are changed and caught up. Also, besides the resurrection and catching away of the dead and living in Christ prior to God's wrath, there will also be a resurrection of the great tribulation saints after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as revealed in Rev.20:4-6.

In 2 Corinthians 12:2 & 4 Paul describes an individual having been "caught up" up to heaven, but then later this individual relates his experience to Paul on the earth, thereby indicating the individual still present on earth.

When Paul says "I knew of a man who was caught up to the third heaven" he is speaking of himself as that man, not another. He is revealing an event which took place with him of being caught up where he received visions and revelations from the Lord.

The third area in which being "caught up" to heaven is described is in Revelation 12:5, where a travailing woman after giving birth to a man child, the child is then caught up to God in heaven. After the child is caught up to God in heaven, we then see the devil who has been cast to the earth, going off to make war with the remnant offspring of the woman (Rev 12:17); thereby indicating the male child being still physically on the earth.

The woman who gives birth to the male child is the nation Israel. The male child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years. The reference to Israel as the woman giving birth is figurative of the male child/144,000 coming out of Israel as those out of Israel who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. The offspring are said to be those "who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." Therefore, the offspring could not be Israel, because they do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Amen to the bolded and that is what the bible teaches...there is no secret, imminent return of Christ where the faithful saved go poof and disappear en masse while the world wonders where we went......it will occur after the period labeled the great tribulation and even JESUS himself tells us this in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and if he did not step in when he does there would be NO FLESH LEFT ALIVE which indicates he STEPS IN during a very graphic, lethal time in hun history....and PAUL's language bears this out as well....AFTER the man of sin has been revealed for who he is, after a great apo-hystamie from the truth.....THE beast wears out, makes war and over comes the SAINTS of GOD

SAINTS identified as saved, immersed church members throughout the WHOLE N.T. and REVELATION is written to 7 churches which make up the gambit of every church to be found on the planet.....

That "bolded"would put the church through the entire wrath of God, which is the on-going error. Surely you have to admit that the seals, trumpets and bowls take place prior to the end of the great tribulation period. If we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, how then could the gathering of the church take place after Jesus returns to the earth. Also, you have not explained how the bride/church can follow the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses wearing the fine linen that she will have received at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven. If we are following the Lord out of heaven when he returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, then we would have to already be in heaven in order to follow him out of it.