The end of the world is coming. What should we be looking for?
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I guess Paul did.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
I know there will be some Jews who make it through the great tribulation, and that there will be some who believe in Christs Way of love, truth, and justice. It is only those who do believe in Christs Way who are Israel; one body comprising all believers.
What people do is take scripture out of context by claiming two separate groups of believers.
What people do is take scripture out of context by claiming two separate groups of believers.
Hey Louis....If I can let me help you understand a different version to what you just stated.
First of all, Jesus is and was Jewish. the Bible is a Jewish Book. Inspired by God but written by Jewish Hands. FYI
If one looks to Mat 24:15-20, Mark 13: 14-18, Rev 12 one finds parallel verses. Rev 12 gives one more information but is the same as those spoke of in Matthew and Mark. The Woman is Israel and the other two chapters will tell us that the 'Great Tribulation' spoken of by Jesus in Matthew and Mark begins at this time, the second half of Daniel's 70th week or Jacob's troubles. It will last 3 1/2 years and will kill some 2/3 of the Jewish Population that are alive or have not been "caught-up" (Raptured) along with the Church (Body of Jesus Christ).
Jesus tells us in Hosea 5:15.."I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."
The people who are calling to HIM are the ones that are fleeing in all three Chapters. These will be the Jewish remnant that will help populate the Millennium. What they are to do in the Millennium is another post.
Those Gentiles (non-believers who have NOT taken the "Mark of the Beast") who survive Daniel's 70th week (all 7 years) will populate the the Millennium. (Another post)
The OT Saints, Church Saints, the Martyred Saints, their Fellowservant Saints and their Bretheren Saints, The 144,000 and the 2 Witnesses will be present during the Millennium and will likely live in the 50 mi.x 50 mi.Temple constructed near north of Jerusalem..
Hope this helps....
May you have a blessed day Louis
Blade
First of all, Jesus is and was Jewish. the Bible is a Jewish Book. Inspired by God but written by Jewish Hands. FYI
If one looks to Mat 24:15-20, Mark 13: 14-18, Rev 12 one finds parallel verses. Rev 12 gives one more information but is the same as those spoke of in Matthew and Mark. The Woman is Israel and the other two chapters will tell us that the 'Great Tribulation' spoken of by Jesus in Matthew and Mark begins at this time, the second half of Daniel's 70th week or Jacob's troubles. It will last 3 1/2 years and will kill some 2/3 of the Jewish Population that are alive or have not been "caught-up" (Raptured) along with the Church (Body of Jesus Christ).
Jesus tells us in Hosea 5:15.."I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."
The people who are calling to HIM are the ones that are fleeing in all three Chapters. These will be the Jewish remnant that will help populate the Millennium. What they are to do in the Millennium is another post.
Those Gentiles (non-believers who have NOT taken the "Mark of the Beast") who survive Daniel's 70th week (all 7 years) will populate the the Millennium. (Another post)
The OT Saints, Church Saints, the Martyred Saints, their Fellowservant Saints and their Bretheren Saints, The 144,000 and the 2 Witnesses will be present during the Millennium and will likely live in the 50 mi.x 50 mi.Temple constructed near north of Jerusalem..
Hope this helps....
May you have a blessed day Louis
Blade
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there are many signs of the " last days or tomes" in the epistles to see presently Jesus said false christs would deceive many, the epistles really detail that to be many false prophets and doctrines will deceive many.
One of the major signs is the evil behavior of mankind becoming more common when you look at the world it seems like a good description of the present
2 timothy 3 :This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. "
yes indeed the world is coming to an end good post
2 PETER 3: "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
V 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
One of the major signs is the evil behavior of mankind becoming more common when you look at the world it seems like a good description of the present
2 timothy 3 :This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. "
yes indeed the world is coming to an end good post
2 PETER 3: "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
V 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Ahwatukee you just told us that thief in the night refers to the rapture happening at any moment (imminent).
Then I posted verses and you changed your position and now claim its talking about the day of wrath which will not overtake believers?
Which one is it? Did I misunderstand?
Are there not only two second comings, but two thiefs in the night?
Then I posted verses and you changed your position and now claim its talking about the day of wrath which will not overtake believers?
Which one is it? Did I misunderstand?
Are there not only two second comings, but two thiefs in the night?
"When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”
Therefore, neither you nor I nor anyone has any idea what the seven thunders said and we therefore cannot apply them as belonging to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments or anything else.
We also have the announcement of wrath at the opening of the 6th seal (Rev.6:17), with the bowl judgments also referred to as wrath (Rev.15:1)
The reason those men are hiding in caves is because of the events of the previous seals of wrath combined with the events of the 6th seal, the great earthquake, the sun being darkened, the moon turning blood red and the heavens being rolled up so that the inhabitants of the earth can see God on his throne, which is why they are running into the holes in the ground and asking for the rocks to fall on them.
The words "has come" in the announcement of "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it," is in the aorist tense, which means that it is speaking about God's wrath in its entirety, meaning what will have already taken place prior to the announcement (seals) and the events of wrath that will take place after the announcement, which would include the trumpets and bowl judgments.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments belong together as a set of God's wrath and should not be dissected into one part being tribulation and the others as wrath. Jesus is the one who tramples the wine-press of the wrath of God Almighty and he begins it with the opening of the seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowls/vials.
Once the church has been gathered as represented in Rev.4:1, then that first seal will be opened, which is represented by the rider on the white horse as the antichrist who goes out to conquer and is bent on conquest.
Regarding "b" above, prior to the 7th trumpet scripture states that at the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, of the earths population will be killed, which would equal over have of the earths population dead. And you don't think that this will be a result of God's wrath? That entire seven years is God's wrath. Every event that takes place in that period is apart of God's wrath, from the seals, trumpets, and bowl judgments, to the plagues that the two witnesses bring upon the earth, to the reign of the beast during that last 3 1/2 years. It is all apart of God's time of wrath.
Regarding this, the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, whether the wrath that will be coming upon the earth nor the wrath that results as being cast into the lake of fire. And that because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves. The wrath of God no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Scripture also states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and that he would keep us out of that hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth (Rev.3:10)
The Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 to take the church back to the Father's house is going to take place as described in detail in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and is going to take place prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.
Therefore, neither you nor I nor anyone has any idea what the seven thunders said and we therefore cannot apply them as belonging to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments or anything else.
We also have the announcement of wrath at the opening of the 6th seal (Rev.6:17), with the bowl judgments also referred to as wrath (Rev.15:1)
The reason those men are hiding in caves is because of the events of the previous seals of wrath combined with the events of the 6th seal, the great earthquake, the sun being darkened, the moon turning blood red and the heavens being rolled up so that the inhabitants of the earth can see God on his throne, which is why they are running into the holes in the ground and asking for the rocks to fall on them.
The words "has come" in the announcement of "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it," is in the aorist tense, which means that it is speaking about God's wrath in its entirety, meaning what will have already taken place prior to the announcement (seals) and the events of wrath that will take place after the announcement, which would include the trumpets and bowl judgments.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments belong together as a set of God's wrath and should not be dissected into one part being tribulation and the others as wrath. Jesus is the one who tramples the wine-press of the wrath of God Almighty and he begins it with the opening of the seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowls/vials.
Once the church has been gathered as represented in Rev.4:1, then that first seal will be opened, which is represented by the rider on the white horse as the antichrist who goes out to conquer and is bent on conquest.
Regarding "b" above, prior to the 7th trumpet scripture states that at the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, of the earths population will be killed, which would equal over have of the earths population dead. And you don't think that this will be a result of God's wrath? That entire seven years is God's wrath. Every event that takes place in that period is apart of God's wrath, from the seals, trumpets, and bowl judgments, to the plagues that the two witnesses bring upon the earth, to the reign of the beast during that last 3 1/2 years. It is all apart of God's time of wrath.
Regarding this, the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, whether the wrath that will be coming upon the earth nor the wrath that results as being cast into the lake of fire. And that because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves. The wrath of God no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Scripture also states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and that he would keep us out of that hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth (Rev.3:10)
The Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 to take the church back to the Father's house is going to take place as described in detail in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and is going to take place prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.
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The verse says that John was taken through a door. vs. 1-2.
It literally says John, and there is no one else mentioned.
You're attempt to symbolize these verses only shows that you want it to be symbolic only when you want it to be, and literal only where you want it to be.
It literally says John.
But then, if it is literal, and only John, then that pokes a hole in pre-trib, doesn't it?
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Oh yes, the souls seen in heaven with Jesus after that, are not called the church, because they are not the church, but the OT saints resurrected with Jesus at the 1st resurrection.
It literally says John, and there is no one else mentioned.
You're attempt to symbolize these verses only shows that you want it to be symbolic only when you want it to be, and literal only where you want it to be.
It literally says John.
But then, if it is literal, and only John, then that pokes a hole in pre-trib, doesn't it?
======
Oh yes, the souls seen in heaven with Jesus after that, are not called the church, because they are not the church, but the OT saints resurrected with Jesus at the 1st resurrection.
Ahwatukee you just told us that thief in the night refers to the rapture happening at any moment (imminent).
Then I posted verses and you changed your position and now claim its talking about the day of wrath which will not overtake believers?
Which one is it? Did I misunderstand?
Are there not only two second comings, but two thiefs in the night?
Then I posted verses and you changed your position and now claim its talking about the day of wrath which will not overtake believers?
Which one is it? Did I misunderstand?
Are there not only two second comings, but two thiefs in the night?
There are not two second coming and is the reason for the confusion:
The gathering of the church = The Lord descending from heaven to the atmosphere (as a thief in the night) with dead resurrecting in their immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and being caught up with those who will have just resurrected. From their the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3.
The second coming = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. This event cannot be referred to as "coming like a thief in the night" because it is marked by all kings of signs leading right up to when the Lord returns. According to Revelation, the Lord returns shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out. Therefore if I was on the earth during this time, I could simply follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments knowing that after the 7th bowl was poured out that Jesus would be returning in close proximity. In opposition, we have no signs preceding the Lord's appearing to gather the church. None! The only indication that we are close to our being gathered is because we can see the events being set up that are to take place during the time of God's wrath, such as the technology for the mark of the beast, which is already in use and which will evolve into that coming mark. We can also tell by the state of the world and what is going on with Israel.
Therefore, when the Lord comes for the church he is not returning to the earth, but calling the church up to take us back to the Father's house. The next time that he does return to the earth will be after his wrath has completed and that to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
rev 4
[h=3]The Throne in Heaven[/h]4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
this is not rapture. This is John vision. A lot of people see a vision of heaven, including Paul, Jacob etc.
rev 6
6 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
this tell Jesus is the winner. It do not tell rapture before tribulation. Jesus always a winner when ever.
[h=3]The Throne in Heaven[/h]4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
this is not rapture. This is John vision. A lot of people see a vision of heaven, including Paul, Jacob etc.
rev 6
6 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
this tell Jesus is the winner. It do not tell rapture before tribulation. Jesus always a winner when ever.
Funny thing.....the whole letter is written unto 7 churches and if we use his analogy....we must dump about 3/4 of the New Testament because in many church letters the church that the letter is written to is not mentioned after the first chapter or so........and even though saints/elect are identified with new testament churches ALL THROUGH THE WHOLE N.T. when we get to REVELATION the saints listed in REVELATION are not church members....ignorance.....
As I said, Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up with John representing it. It is hidden, masked, camouflaged, if you will. This is exactly why we no longer see the word "ekklesia/church" from chapter 4 onward.
There are clues in there for the reader to find, the voice that sounds like a trumpet, which I believe is an allusion to the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:17 in Paul's description of the gathering of the church. Another is the abrupt disuse of the word "ekklesia/church" which I believe is demonstrating that the church is no longer on the earth after Rev.4:1.
The biggest deterrent for the church not being gathered any time after the first seal, is because it is what initiates God's wrath, which as I have pointed out so many times, we are not appointed to suffer. When I bring this truth up, I am met with a myriad of apologetics stating that the seals are not God's wrath, nor the trumpets and some say just the trumpets and bowls and other just the bowls. Therefore in order to circumvent what I am telling them, they simply reinterpret what God's wrath is and when it takes place. They make a distinction between tribulation and wrath, man's wrath and God's wrath, etc. But I know that God's wrath begins when Jesus opens that fist seal and no one will ever move me from that position and that because I have studies this extensively for many years.
