The Error of KJV-Onlyism

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GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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Why don't you speak in Old English except when reading from the KJV? Why doesn't anyone still speak in Old English, if it's the "perfect language"?
Who said anything about it being the "perfect language" for speaking? Nor does it need to be.

However, it is the consistent/unchanging language of the most accurate/reliable/steadfast/trustworthy/unfailing long-standing Bible (in English).
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Did you know that our traditional text KJ Bible is not written in Old English?
It is actually modern English. With exception of a handful of words, it has been a stabilizer for our language. It was translated at a point when the quickly evolving language slowed way down to offer the perfect timing for printing and publishing. It has had revisions of punctuation and spelling, but has essentially remained as it was for 400 years. That in itself is linguistically remarkable!

I have heard people who consider themselves experts on the subject make the same remark. That's why I take it easy on those who say my Bible is Old English. That fallacy has been repeated so many times by so called experts, like James White, that it's become a common misnomer.
They have gained such following in Evangelical circles that people consider them experts rather than the actual translators of the King James Bible.

Old English is not similar to my Bible.
That "Old" and "Modern" holds a meaning that is relative to a certain time frame has a lot to do with that, I suppose.
 

GaryA

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I think "Middle English" is the common-use term used today.

But - as HAH was saying - it is actually closer to modern English than it is to what is referred to as 'Old English'.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Who said anything about it being the "perfect language" for speaking? Nor does it need to be.

However, it is the consistent/unchanging language of the most accurate/reliable/steadfast/trustworthy/unfailing long-standing Bible (in English).
Not that I'm any sort of expert on the subject but I was just noticing that nobody speaks saying, 'what light in yonder window breaks' but everyone likely can understand what that's saying. And it caused me to wonder whether Hebrew and Greek are actually still spoken as it had been 2,000+ years ago.
 
Jul 7, 2022
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
I think "Middle English" is the common-use term used today.

But - as HAH was saying - it is actually closer to modern English than it is to what is referred to as 'Old English'.
My liberal United Methodist English teacher at a public school taught me that our King James Bible is written in Modern English. She disliked the gender neutral "bible" that her women's group at her church used.

Our Bible is not Middle English either.
The Old English is a different language. Our language changed quite a LOT between Old and the Modern English of the King James. At the time of translation, there were words used in the Bible that ensured accuracy even though they were no longer in common conversational usage at that time. The translators knew what they were doing, unlike the translators of the critical texts today. There's a BIG reason that they convinced the general public that our Bible is Old English.
 
Jul 7, 2022
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
Not that I'm any sort of expert on the subject but I was just noticing that nobody speaks saying, 'what light in yonder window breaks' but everyone likely can understand what that's saying. And it caused me to wonder whether Hebrew and Greek are actually still spoken as it had been 2,000+ years ago.

When the modern Bible scholars and translators of the Critical Texts proclaim the King James Bible to be Old English, it's for a very important reason friend. They are trying to sell the public on a list of lies in order to sell them a substitute. There are millions of dollars made on each translation.
Their lies are obvious and they know it. They just know that 99%+ of their market are never going to check out the fake arguments they present in their sales pitch. Keep that in mind when you hear one of those shady book salesmen.

THIS is Old English and they know the Bible is Not when they tell you that with a straight face.

 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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When the modern Bible scholars and translators of the Critical Texts proclaim the King James Bible to be Old English, it's for a very important reason friend. They are trying to sell the public on a list of lies in order to sell them a substitute. There are millions of dollars made on each translation.
Their lies are obvious and they know it. They just know that 99%+ of their market are never going to check out the fake arguments they present in their sales pitch. Keep that in mind when you hear one of those shady book salesmen.

THIS is Old English and they know the Bible is Not when they tell you that with a straight face.

I have to admit the idea that the English has changed but remains the same is confusing to me.
 
Jul 7, 2022
10,980
4,710
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
I think "Middle English" is the common-use term used today.

But - as HAH was saying - it is actually closer to modern English than it is to what is referred to as 'Old English'.
I have been challenged reading with the proficiency as before my traumatic brain injuries recently. However, reading chapters of the Bible out loud is a good exercise for recovery. My grammar in conversation pales in comparison to what you read here when I slow down write and proofread.
Please pray that I will recover.
Modern medicine says it's not likely.
I'm not up to reading Middle English literature or poetry, but love our Bible.

Here's a short sample that begins with Beowulf in Old English and Continues in the second half with Middle English for comparison. Enjoy. 📖😊👍

 
Jul 7, 2022
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
I have to admit the idea that the English has changed but remains the same is confusing to me.
No worries because it changes every year. The Bible we are discussing is the reason it hasn't changed a lot more IMHO.

The more it is read, the easier it is to understand. Now I'm finding that the Holy Spirit makes up for much of my lapse in memory and clarity.
I suffered emotional and physical traumas recently. I'm more prone to accidents.
I often have no idea where to find a phrase that comes to mind. Then I often open to the exact page and He brings my eyes directly to it.
We ultimately need His kind grace to understand spiritual treasures.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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No worries because it changes every year. The Bible we are discussing is the reason it hasn't changed a lot more IMHO.

The more it is read, the easier it is to understand. Now I'm finding that the Holy Spirit makes up for much of my lapse in memory and clarity.
I suffered emotional and physical traumas recently. I'm more prone to accidents.
I often have no idea where to find a phrase that comes to mind. Then I often open to the exact page and He brings my eyes directly to it.
We ultimately need His kind grace to understand spiritual treasures.
I know that whatever I read, He is aware of how I receive it and will not leave me nor forsake me to my own devices, and especially as I pray, "...Lord, help..."
 
Jan 13, 2016
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Why didn't God preserve the language of the KJV?
Do you mean how the English language has changed and been watered down from its precise form? Did God promise to preserve the English language? For example, are you and ye correct plural forms? Are thee and thou correct singular forms?
 
Jun 30, 2015
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Do you mean how the English language has changed and been watered down from its precise form? Did God promise to preserve the English language? For example, are you and ye correct plural forms? Are thee and thou correct singular forms?
And “besom” is the more precise word for “broom”? Oh, wait… it isn’t. Nor are the vast majority of archaic words more precise than their modern counterparts. Your argument holds for precisely two words out of dozens if not hundreds.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Antecedents of the KJV include this (gleaned via google):

Following Wycliffe's translation of the Bible into English, the Roman Catholic Church had denounced Wycliffe as a heretic. They had exhumed his body and cast his ashes into the river, carrying them to the Severn and outwards to the whole world. They had banned his works, burned his Bible wherever it could be found, forbidden the Bible to be read by the ordinary people, and outlawed translations of the Bible into English. The penalty for disobeying was simple. Death.

Once again, the Catholic Church ruled supreme, with the Pope at its head. The Church permitted no rivals in its insatiable lust for power and wealth, and stood ready to destroy everything and anyone who stood in its path. Following other Inquisitions, the Spanish Inquisition was established in 1478. It would remain in force until 1834, more than 350 years later. The excesses of the Spanish Inquisition are well documented. A reign of terror ensued. Anyone who was suspected of "heresy", of not accepting whatever the Catholic Church taught, was tortured until they either died or confessed. At first mainly Jews and Moslems fell victim, but soon the Inquisition broadened out to all and sundry who opposed the Church, or spoke out against its excesses. Land, goods and lives were forfeited to the Catholic Church. Jews were expelled from country after country across Europe. The Bible was a banned book. The Church knew they dared not let people read God's Word for themselves.

To those who hungered and thirsted to know the Truth of the Bible, the situation seemed hopeless. Europe had become a dark and dangerous place. But light was starting to shine from the darkness. Glimmers of hope were starting to arise. A new dawn of Truth was starting to emerge from the shadows. Despite the Bible still being a banned book, a sequence of events were starting to emerge which would make the translation of the Bible into English, not just a possibility, but an inevitability. The Bible was coming, and coming in an exciting way, to the people of Great Britain and the English-speaking world. These were events which changed history. And history is still feeling its effects.

First, in 1450, the Printing Press was invented. Whereas John Wycliffe and his followers had to produce hand-written manuscripts of his Bible translation, the printing press allowed Bibles to be (painstakingly and meticulously) typeset, but then hundreds of copies made. This made it possible to vastly increase the supply of Bibles.

Second, as our series of videos and resources on Early Printed Bibles shows, the printing press was starting to be used to good effect. Printed copies of the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament) were being produced, albeit at great effort and expense. Copies of the New Testament in Greek and Latin were also being produced, as were Polyglot Bibles. Each one had to be personally authorized by the Pope. But these printed Hebrew, Greek and Latin texts allowed scholars in Universities to have access to the Holy Scriptures like never before - even if it was "only" in the Original Languages of the Bible, rather than the language of the common people.

Third, although the Spanish Inquisition was still in full sway and the Pope claimed universal authority over the whole of Christendom, elsewhere in Europe the Church's authority was being questioned and challenged as never before. Like Wycliffe before him, in Germany, Martin Luther and his followers were starting to read and translate the Bible for themselves, armed with the printed copies of the Hebrew, Greek and Latin texts that were now rolling off the printing press. And like Wycliffe, they too could clearly see the gaping chasm between what was written in the Bible, and the beliefs, doctrines, practices and excesses of the Catholic Church.

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Desiderius Erasmus’ printing of the Greek New Testament, with his Latin translation, encouraged many to study the New Testament in its original Greek. Three thousand copies were printed of Erasmus’ first two editions, 1516 and 1519. Luther used Erasmus’ second edition in making his translation of the New Testament into German while at the Wartburg Castle.

Knowing he had been declared an outlaw and was under judgment of being executed as a heretic, Luther worked ceaselessly to complete a translation of the New Testament from the Greek into the German dialect of Saxony. When he returned to Wittenberg, he rushed the printing so the book would be ready for the Frankfurt Book Fair in the fall. 3000 copies of the “September Testament” were printed, and soon there were demands for more. A second, corrected printing was made in December. Luther’s translation of the Bible into German was the first translation from the Greek and Hebrew in over a millennium, since Jerome’s Latin Vulgate translation in the fourth century. While printers and publishers profited from the sale of Luther’s Bible translation, Luther himself never received any payment for the work, or indeed for any of his publications.

_________

The year 2011 marks the four hundredth anniversary of the translation and publication of the King James Bible (the KJV). While we applaud the work of the King James translators, their task was made easier through the labors and sacrifices of earlier Bible translators. Indeed, besides using the Greek and Hebrew texts of the Old and New Testaments, the King James translators used earlier Bible translations to assist them in their work. One of their primary sources was the New Testament and partial Old Testament translations of William Tyndale. Indeed, Tyndale was the first to translate the New Testament from the Greek text and parts of the Old Testament from the Hebrew text into English. The King James translators found his 1534 New Testament to be an excellent translation and incorporated most of it into their own work. Thus the KJV translators were deeply indebted to Tyndale for his groundbreaking work, and it is with that indebtedness to Tyndale that we revisit his history, celebrate his life and works, and pause to express gratitude for his contributions and sacrifices in making God’s word available in English to millions of readers.
 
Jul 7, 2022
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
Please quote ANY “modern Bible scholar” or “ translator of the Critical Texts” saying that.

The most popular and influential one I can think of is James White.
Have you ever heard of him?
He often mentions his speeches and debates worldwide.

I wonder if he influenced anyone?
 
Jun 30, 2015
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The most popular and influential one I can think of is James White.
Have you ever heard of him?
He often mentions his speeches and debates worldwide.

I wonder if he influenced anyone?
You didn't read my challenge carefully. Please try again. Post 3692, up this page.