The False Doctrine of OSAS

[Abiding]

What do i do with 1John 2:19 ive studied it deeply because it has as glaring of implication as Matt 7:23

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

 

[GreenNnice]

What do i do with 1John 2:19 ive studied it deeply because it has as glaring of implication as Matt 7:23

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

They=antichrists=people who NEVER were believers nor even seekers of Christ in the first place.

Debunks OSAS quicker than one can say, 'Once maybe saved, almost saved,' or, 'Once saved, maybe wasn't saved in the first place.

You're either saved or your not and you will know IF you have Him in you, cuz you MUST have Him in you , and, I ain't talking about JUST Jesus, YOU MUST HAVE HIS HELPER TOO, THE HOLY SPIRIT, resting your life, insuring your salvation, obtaining eternal life by obedience as He leads.

Eg, seems you seem to be saying that entering God's rest is not that important, but if not entering God's rest or flittering in and out of God's rest says through the Holy Spirit how important it be we enter His rest how CAN that possibly mean there is NOT a danger of neglecting the gift of rest by God causing your salvation (dying and going to Heaven, not Hell) to be in jeopardy.

Seems to me being eternally grateful for Christ on cross and being in His rest is ADDING DEATH BLOWS to the OSAS doctrine. Though not WORKS, we, by the Holy Spirit's urging us in Hebrews are to believe in Him for getting that rest as Hebrews 3:7.

So, is there really a giving of the Holy Spirit IMMEDIATELY after your accepting Christ, blah, blah, blah, believing in the finished works of Christ, it is God's work, actually, all Jesus did was go.THROUGH the work, the suffering ? When does one receive the Holy Spirit, this 'babe' believer after having the belief of Christ ?

And, with that belief, didn't even the demons believe in God?

Is 'belief' enough?

 

[cfultz3]

What do i do with 1John 2:19 ive studied it deeply because it has as glaring of implication as Matt 7:23

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 John 2:19[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]To the reader: this verse is used to prove that if anyone departs from the faith, then in actuality, they were never of the faith in the first place. Whatever the case might be, let us break down this verse for a fuller understand and then each can decide him/herself as what is being said in this verse:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I believe that they were antichrists from the beginning, and were never saved to begin with, as evidenced by their departure. Humor me as I explain my point.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The verse doesn’t say either explicitly or implicitly that believers cannot fall away. It simply says that certain antichrists departed from the Church, and were not of them. This speaks volume to the adage 'wolves in sheep clothing' who sneaks in as false brothers so that they can spy upon our liberties to our harm, even to the harm of those not of the Church. Neither does it say that these antichrists '[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]were never of us'[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], but simply 'were not of us'. Understanding the word G1537 (of) does imply 'source/origin' and not G575 (departure) , we can see it saying (notes after double dashes should be read as one continuous though), [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]'they went out from (source) us -- they left the Church, they came from the Church[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]but they were not from (source) us -- but we did not sent them[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]seeing that if they were from (source) us, -- because, if we sent them[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]they would have continued among us -- then they would have continued in our assembly[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But nevertheless -- But because they did leave our assembly,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]they went out so that they might be made manifested -- God, in His providence, permitted their departure, so that[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]in that, they were not all from (source) us." -- it might be known they were not sent by us (the Apostles).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]If we continue to the next verse, we see that the writer is saying that whatever the antichrists were saying to them was a lie, because the Spirit who is inside tells us the Truth. And because they were lying, these antichrists were not sent by them. And if we connect that to Matthew 7:23, then certainly, Christ never knew these antichrists, because they are (actively) workers of iniquity. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Conclusively, from this understanding, the infallibility that all believers will persevere, cannot be concluded with this verse. [/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey look, it's eternally grateful preaching the OSAS doctrine again. I seem to recall this topic where feedm3 exposed my contradictions in the OSAS doctrine, and where you demanded that I drink poison to prove the Bible to you. Here's a link to that topic.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...aved-always-saved-part-1-david-stewart-5.html

I see megaman is here to try to show us how much of a pharisee he is. Although he will deny it.

Eternal life = OSAS, it does not matter what you call it. If my life is CHrist is not eternal, then God lied, it is that simple.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lol. just because some who teach osas teaches it falsly des that mean all people who teach osas believe the same way? -- But they who believe in the OSAS doctrine can only come up to those sort of conclusions as they did, seeing that one verse which has been misused led them to conclude that another verse upholds that which was just read.

And this is different between all the people who teach legalism how??

How about this? Lets change OSAS to eternaL Life in CHrist. they both mean the same. maybe this will help?

One verse misused? I can show many which show eternal life is eternal, never ending. Where does this one verse thing come from??

I mean it is ok for you to misuse Hebrews, and take it out of context?

Do all people who teach we can lose salvation believe we lose it the same way? you all can not even be united in your doctrine, do you expect us to be united?

--I do not speak for others, but the only doctrine which matter to me is the doctrine of the Christ. The same Christ which says, 'Come and follow behind me and I will show you the way to the finish line'. This is an active choice. And if I choose not to continue or even had started?

How about when he said whoever BELIEVES in me will have (not might have) eternal life. Will never hunger or thirst, never die, Be assured to be ressurected. and he will never leave nor forsake us. We must be teaching two jesus.

a licentious gospel teaches osas, but falsely. but last I heard, even they do not teach we enter his rest the moment we are saved. No one I have ever heard teach eternal life is a one time event has ever said that. so I have no clue where you get that from!

--Is there anything else you need to do to enter your rest?

The whole new testament teaches us what we have to do to enter his rest. It is a lifelong process, and there are many things we have to do before we can even start to enter his rest. I still have along way to go myself. And I would never think I made it, because when we do think this this is when satan comes in in our false thinking that we have made it and takes us out.

But thats not the subject here. The subject is how is one saved, and when they are saved, is eternal life eternal or conditional.

 

[megaman125]

I see megaman is here to try to show us how much of a pharisee he is. Although he will deny it.

This is quite laughable coming from the guy that repeatedly demanded that I drink poison to prove the Bible to him. But I will give you an opportunity. Do you still demand that I drink poison, or not?

Also, exposing false doctrine doesn't make someone a pharisee, and the OSAS false doctrine was exposed and ripped apart by feedm3 in that topic I linked.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But yet hope is not reality. Hope is believing for a better tomarrow. And as long as we hope, we shall obtain. And we are given a living Hope so that we do not fade in our believe.

Hope is assurance. If one does not have the assurance of the thing he has faith in, He does not have hope. nor does he have faith.

Heb 11: 1, Faith is the substand oc things hoped for.

The word hope in the greek means expect. You expect it to happen, you do not waver in your thinking

The word faith in the greek means one has a full assurance that what he has faith in will happen.

If eternal life is not eternal, and we have to worry that we may lose salvation. we have no hope or assurance, only fear. no matter what someone says!

 

[Red33]

OFAF - once forgiven, alwaya forgiven

OCAC - once cleansed, always cleansed

ORAR - onced redeemed, always redeemed

ONAN - once made new, always made new

OJOJ - one justified, always justified

- once made whole, always made whole

- once complete in Christ, always complete in Christ

- once hid with Christ in God, always hid with Christ in God

- once sealed by the Holy Spirit, alwats sealed by the Holy Spirit

- once raised with Christ, always raised with Christ

- once seated together in heavenly places with Christ, always seated together with Christ

OSAS - once saved by grace through the blood of the Lamb, always saved by grace through the blood of the Lamb

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.

 

[GreenNnice]

OFAF - once forgiven, alwaya forgiven

OCAC - once cleansed, always cleansed

ORAR - onced redeemed, always redeemed

ONAN - once made new, always made new

OJOJ - one justified, always justified

- once made whole, always made whole

- once complete in Christ, always complete in Christ

- once hid with Christ in God, always hid with Christ in God

- once sealed by the Holy Spirit, alwats sealed by the Holy Spirit

- once raised with Christ, always raised with Christ

- once seated together in heavenly places with Christ, always seated together with Christ

OSAS - once saved by grace through the blood of the Lamb, always saved by grace through the blood of the Lamb

Heb 10:10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.

Sounds so' happily ever after,' doesn't it, reddy?

And, you're right, where sin abounds grace abounds more, Scripture does not lie. No ! But, there is THAT sin that does not get covered, when we disobey and therefore we no longer have sacrifice COVERING (doesn't this seem like the 'covered' relating to Christ's Blood covering us?) for our sins. Seems to say grace gets ABOUNDED over by SIN at that point, no?

 

[Grandpa]

For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Is our faith in the Lord who has redeemed us?

Mine is. My Faith is in the Lord Jesus and what He has promised.

If my faith were in what I could do and all the works that people tell me I must do in order to be saved, then I wouldn't believe in eternal salvation either.

Thankfully the Lord is who I rely on, and not myself. He has promised the gift of eternal salvation to all who believe in Him. Do you believe what He says?

 

[GreenNnice]

For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Is our faith in the Lord who has redeemed us?

Mine is. My Faith is in the Lord Jesus and what He has promised.

If my faith were in what I could do and all the works that people tell me I must do in order to be saved, then I wouldn't believe in eternal salvation either.

Thankfully the Lord is who I rely on, and not myself. He has promised the gift of eternal salvation to all who believe in Him. Do you believe what He says?

Mine, too, 100%, in The Cross !
In the Blood.

But to say one cannot become uncovered is the foolishness of men talking. Scripture is REPLETE with examples of being able to be SAVED and UNSAVED, with Christ, and not with Christ and OH, wait, I forgot, though they tasted the Holy Spirit, partook of Him, had the heavenly gift, departed 'the faith,' were with Christ but 'entangled' and LEFT, they were never saved in the first place

 

[cfultz3]

and you would be correct. Except in your assumption that loving is essential to salvation. --
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
　
John said we who are born of God can not sin, because we have his spirit. He also said whoever sins has never seen God nor has he ever known him.

--Because we are not under the Law but grace and where there is no Law, there is no condemnation. But Scripture also says that if we sin we have an advocate with the Father, the man, Jesus Christ. It has also been written that if we see a brother (one from Jesus' house) sinning into a sin which is not unto death, we should pray from him and he shall be FORGIVEN AND GIVEN LIFE.

using this. Those who have Gods spirit WILL love (Although they will not love perfectly) because they have experienced Gods love and they will want to share that love, those who have never loved have never known God.

--we, as humans, have ability to love which is defined as 'phileo' and that sort of love is sensational (of the flesh). The sort of love by which God loves us by, is the love of agape and is the sort of love which is of esteem (of the mind). Inasmuch as we can command the love of phileo, we are also in possession of agape and that is also under our command (ability to turn off and on (21 verses agree to us also having the love of agape apart from God)). So, we can have sensational love in the flesh, and we can also esteem. An athiest can esteem his mentor, but that does not mean he has come to know God. A Christian can esteem God and call Him Father, but without esteem of the Son, his high consideration of God means nothing.

With agape explained above, allow me to post the folowing to see if we do or do not have the ability to esteem apart from God:

(Joh 14:21 - 24) The one who has and keeps the Son's commandments is the one who esteems Him. And the one who esteems Him, the same is esteemed by His Father and Him and they will manifest themselves to you by making their home in you. The one who does not keep the Son's sayings is the one who does not esteem Him. Those sayings are the sayings of the Father.

What this tells me is that we have the choice to either esteem or not esteem the Son. But it also tells me that there is a consequence of my turning off my esteem for the Son. When I make the choice of saying I no longer esteem Him enough to follow Him, then I am cut from fellowship with not Him but also the Son. So, if I do not love, then I do not have neither the Father nor the Son. And if I have neither of them, then neither do I have salvation, seeing that salvation comes from God.

thus we are back to the begining of the question. does someone lose salvation, or have they never had it?? I would say they never had it.

-- By choice they can. The path we are on is by choice and if it is by choice then we can decide either way. If we continue in Christ, then we will obtain a crown of life
(Jas 1:12) The one who endures temptation because he esteems the Lord shall receive a crown of life

 

[Red33]

Sounds so' happily ever after,' doesn't it, reddy?

And, you're right, where sin abounds grace abounds more, Scripture does not lie. No ! But, there is THAT sin that does not get covered, when we disobey and therefore we no longer have sacrifice COVERING (doesn't this seem like the 'covered' relating to Christ's Blood covering us?) for our sins. Seems to say grace gets ABOUNDED over by SIN at that point, no?

You sound like a Frenchman learning English, No!

The blood can not cover the sinner who remains in unbelief and has never been cleansed from his sins. The disobedience of unbelief in the gospel keeps God from being able to save, forgive and cleanse the sinner from all his sin that was put away through Christ. However, as a believer, the blood covers us in every area and we learn the preciousness of what that blood means in our walk and fellowship with God the Father, with Christ and with one another. The blood covers the believer when he sins. No? AND that covering reveals the mercy and love that God has toward us who He has redeemed, Yes!

 

[Grandpa]

Mine, too, 100%, in The Cross !
In the Blood.

But to say one cannot become uncovered is the foolishness of men talking. Scripture is REPLETE with examples of being able to be SAVED and UNSAVED, with Christ, and not with Christ and OH, wait, I forgot, though they tasted the Holy Spirit, partook of Him, had the heavenly gift, departed 'the faith,' were with Christ but 'entangled' and LEFT, they were never saved in the first place

That is what you percieve in the scriptures because you think you are saved by what you do or don't do.

I already know that I am not saved by what I do or don't do. I am saved by what the Lord has already done for me, what He has already done for all. It is at the core of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't understand how you can say you believe in the power of the Cross, the power of the Blood and then say a person can lose this.

Once the Lord has made something clean by His Blood, who can make it un-clean? Only the philosophy of men wrestle with that supposed question, the faith of believers knows the answer.

 

[cfultz3]

For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Is our faith in the Lord who has redeemed us?

Mine is. My Faith is in the Lord Jesus and what He has promised.

If my faith were in what I could do and all the works that people tell me I must do in order to be saved, then I wouldn't believe in eternal salvation either.

Thankfully the Lord is who I rely on, and not myself. He has promised the gift of eternal salvation to all who believe in Him. Do you believe what He says?

Most certainly we place our confidence in our Lord. And what is that confidence we place in Him if not believing that He has done what He said He has done and that He will do as He said He will do. So, yes. I trust Him to bring me Home as my Forerunner. Yes, I trust Him to give me everlasting life as my reward for a job well done, just as He said to His Son, 'well done'.

And has He not delivered a down payment in the form of His Spirit? Obedience to Him is not a work but a person saying 'lead on' and what you tell me to do, I will. If you tell me not to take a certain path, I won't. If you tell me to come and take a rest under your shadow, I will. Do I do this as a work? No. Because my God is wise and knows how to enter His rest.

I reply on His lead, I trust Him and place my confidence in Him. Amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They=antichrists=people who NEVER were believers nor even seekers of Christ in the first place.

Debunks OSAS quicker than one can say, 'Once maybe saved, almost saved,' or, 'Once saved, maybe wasn't saved in the first place.

You're either saved or your not and you will know IF you have Him in you, cuz you MUST have Him in you , and, I ain't talking about JUST Jesus, YOU MUST HAVE HIS HELPER TOO, THE HOLY SPIRIT, resting your life, insuring your salvation, obtaining eternal life by obedience as He leads.

Thats funny, because what you just said proves OSAS.

Eg, seems you seem to be saying that entering God's rest is not that important,

Oh he did. can you tell me where I said that? I said entering his rest is not the same as being saved. Now you put words in my mouth and falsy accuse me? Where do you get off in doing such a thing?

but if not entering God's rest or flittering in and out of God's rest says through the Holy Spirit how important it be we enter His rest how CAN that possibly mean there is NOT a danger of neglecting the gift of rest by God causing your salvation (dying and going to Heaven, not Hell) to be in jeopardy.

Because entering his rest was never promised to anyone, without them working for it.

Eternal life was promised to everyone who places their faith in Christ. One is based on continued work toward maturity, One is based on grace alone.

Your trying to mix the two! The same as your trying to mix justification with sanctification. when they are not equal

Eternal life is justification

Entering rest is sanctification.

Seems to me being eternally grateful for Christ on cross and being in His rest is ADDING DEATH BLOWS to the OSAS doctrine. Though not WORKS, we, by the Holy Spirit's urging us in Hebrews are to believe in Him for getting that rest as Hebrews 3:7.

Well yuo would be wrong. Because having assurance one will get to heaven is not the same as having assurance God will take care of every need we have here on earth, That God will never let us down. That God will be the perfect father. No child believes this about his father on earth even after years of living with him, do you think a child of God who is newborn is going to trust his heavenly father completely? If this was the case God would have made us perfect the moment he saved us, He did not.

So, is there really a giving of the Holy Spirit IMMEDIATELY after your accepting Christ, blah, blah, blah, believing in the finished works of Christ, it is God's work, actually, all Jesus did was go.THROUGH the work, the suffering ? When does one receive the Holy Spirit, this 'babe' believer after having the belief of Christ ?

And, with that belief, didn't even the demons believe in God?

Is 'belief' enough?

BlahBlahBlah? Wow is that how we talk about Gods truth? I am saddened by your attitude.

Is belief enough? I think James tells us this, Mere belief is not faith. We are saved by faith. Not mere belief, However, the greek words are so close to the same that many times belief and faith are used interchangably.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is quite laughable coming from the guy that repeatedly demanded that I drink poison to prove the Bible to him. But I will give you an opportunity. Do you still demand that I drink poison, or not?

Dude, you wanted to prove Mark 16:16 - the end was really from God. I told you to prove it by showing where people can do what it said they can do.

You want to twist what people say, and take away from the facts. thats on you, not me.

Also, exposing false doctrine doesn't make someone a pharisee, and the OSAS false doctrine was exposed and ripped apart by feedm3 in that topic I linked.

No, teaching one has to earn salvation by doing ANY type of work makes them a pharisee.

 

[GreenNnice]

That is what you percieve in the scriptures because you think you are saved by what you do or don't do.

I already know that I am not saved by what I do or don't do. I am saved by what the Lord has already done for me, what He has already done for all. It is at the core of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't understand how you can say you believe in the power of the Cross, the power of the Blood and then say a person can lose this.

Once the Lord has made something clean by His Blood, who can make it un-clean? Only the philosophy of men wrestle with that supposed question, the faith of believers knows the answer.

But they have been cleansed from their sins.Just because Scripture says...

"If we confess our sins, He is able and just to forgive us our sins and CLEANSE us from ALL unrigteousness.


This does NOT mean like I said before, grampsK,, that we can't go back to the forgiveness place more than once./ NOt forgiven once always forgiven! (what do the words 'remaineth' mean to you in this verse? 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

REddy:You sound like a Frenchman learning English, No!

The blood can not cover the sinner who remains in unbelief and has never been cleansed from his sins. The disobedience of unbelief in the gospel keeps God from being able to save, forgive and cleanse the sinner from all his sin that was put away through Christ. However, as a believer, the blood covers us in every area and we learn the preciousness of what that blood means in our walk and fellowship with God the Father, with Christ and with one another. The blood covers the believer when he sins. No? AND that covering reveals the mercy and love that God has toward us who He has redeemed, Yes!

Reddy! How's that sound, Hook There is NO LONGER, the remains of the day (I just LOVE! that Hopkins flick, btw) are DONE for that sinner, and, sure they can come back, as long as he hath breath let him come back to the Lord. But , these words 'remaineth no more' mean this person had a SAVING BELIEVER'S CHRIST-HUNG heart, this person who decided to keep sinning and sinning LOST God's grace and IF you care to read to me verse 27 you will see just how much this person lost By the way, we are in Hebrews chapter 10, and, we are going to Heaven .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and you would be correct. Except in your assumption that loving is essential to salvation. --
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

lol. Read this again my friend. WE KNOW WE HAVE PAST FROM DEATH TO LIFE. why? BECAUSE WE DO LOVE.

This proves me right, thank you. What would we prove if we did not love the brotheren? We have not past from death to life. Which is why paul is warning everyone who reads this passage.

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

But this is not us.. why> Because WE KNOW WE HAVE PAST FROM DEATH TO LIFE. Why? WE DO LOVE THE BRETHEREN.

Try reading with an open heart and not with closed eyes, and you could see what Paul said.
　
do you want to try again? Your passage PROVES ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL AND NOT CONDITIONAL.

 

[Grandpa]

Most certainly we place our confidence in our Lord. And what is that confidence we place in Him if not believing that He has done what He said He has done and that He will do as He said He will do. So, yes. I trust Him to bring me Home as my Forerunner. Yes, I trust Him to give me everlasting life as my reward for a job well done, just as He said to His Son, 'well done'.

And has He not delivered a down payment in the form of His Spirit? Obedience to Him is not a work but a person saying 'lead on' and what you tell me to do, I will. If you tell me not to take a certain path, I won't. If you tell me to come and take a rest under your shadow, I will. Do I do this as a work? No. Because my God is wise and knows how to enter His rest.

I reply on His lead, I trust Him and place my confidence in Him. Amen.

You trust Him and yet you preach to others that He is untrustworthy. That is odd, isn't it?

How can you trust in Him if you think He will repent of His gifts that He has promised?

I trust Him and I am here to tell people that He is trustworthy and He does back up His promises.

Ephesians 3:14-21
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Amen!!