The False Doctrine of OSAS

[GreenNnice]

Your grace, eg, you were given grace by God

 

[cfultz3]

Maybe, youre right. But most of the time people do it just trying to confuse what is stated. Maybe that is what he was not doing, it seemed like it.

One thing I am sure, he is asking to get to a point (whatever that might be). It might be even that by my responses, those who are reading, will see Truth of a thing they doubt.

One other thing also, it is also my opportunity to speak the Scriptures.

So, you see, he has his purpose, I have my purpose. (neither am I saying his purpose is bad and mine is good). Who knows, maybe he is leading me to a Truth I never knew of.

 

[GreenNnice]

What are you even trying to say, eg ?

Sigh....

I already told you I am in His rest, sure, I have fallen, will fall again, sure, we sin and there are consequences, but I am obeying Him, through it ALL, eg, , I am , too, linoleum you, I guess, but with God put in a 'faithfulness' bondage box, sigh, hmmm, anyway, yeah, in His rest.

Get it. This is FULLY understanding His grace, when you finally tell me this picture is got by you , I pray THEN you quit thinking about my sin, your sin (who said anything about sin, QUIT bringing it up )
Live YOUR life, run YOUR race as you are led, we AGREE, we are saved by His grace. Of course, now you are getting it, servanthood of God others is Love, it is also opening yourself up for, ahhh, *yaWN, 'I got a peaceful, easy feeling, I know He won't let me down. Cuz I know though I fall He will stand me back up on the ground.'

Now, eg, I am just trying to help you liVe like you believe. Live , in His leading, don't even thinking about falling down and QUIT 'dropping' me . God bless

 

[cfultz3]

I was asked not to answer all the questions until Rick returned and I complied and said I would not answer any until we start up the conversation again. But, it seemed that one took that, of me not answering, as an opportunity to say that we do not understand. So that that one does not get to prideful in his victory, I will give an answer and perhaps the one who looks for victory over his brothers and sisters will see that it is all about love and not a boastful pride.

Rick = black Me = blue

So if someone does all they can to stop a certain failure - (Let's say it is spiritual pride) -- Let us say a beseeching sin

Let's draw an illustration: a pastor of a large church has been given the gift of explaining and extrapulating the words the The Book as if he were Moses himself...........and as the tongues of angels the word flowed so beautifully and effortlessly off his tongue........and masses wept at his sermons and rushed the alter even before he gave the alter call.......(And so his ministry went, soaring ever higher and higher.....)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - -- -- - - - -
But when he was home, and when he was alone with his thoughts; he would muse on himself and the great lyrical ability he had.........and he would begin to get lifted up in his own eyes.........
But as he would he recognized it every time and felt badly, as a sort of self-hatred for ever even thinking such a thing.......(and satan seeing the self loathing he(satan) could aquire in the man ; he sent ever more demons to harass the preacher..................as time passed the attacks of superiority got stronger, and his self loathing got more urgent. Until finally the preacher broke, and completely backslid into gross sin.......because he could never SEE that the ideas of self lifting up in his head were not from him at all......but from evil spirits who tormented him. -- then it would seem he was listening to the wrong spirit. And therefore, was not being led by God and was not testing the spirits to see if they were of God or satan. So, in the sin of pride, as satan, he fell from grace.

He rejects himself as being a hypocrite.......and he rejects his calling. -- he was is righteous and gives up his righteousness is no better off than the one who lives in rebellion.

He ends up drinking himself to death, because he never understood those thoughts of self-righteousness were not originating from his spirit but from evil spirits. -- So then, us being guiding by the Spirit is therefore a requirment to be led home. Seeing that if he was led by the Spirit then he would not have been led astray. It is therefore conclusive that God stands correct, he who does righteousness is righteous as He is righteous. And from that we can conclude that he who does wickedness is wicked as satan is wicked.

Does He Go To Heaven? -- No. Besides not being led by God but by evil spirits, he abandoned his righteousness for whatever reason he did. Here I tell all, if you are not being led to God's rest by Him, then where are you being led to and by whom?

 

[marianna]

This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with what we do but rather in who we trust. This is not about works at all but genuine faith. You and I can do nothing but all things are possible through Christ who strengthens us. Unfortunately, many are so stuck in their own doctrine, they can not see the forest for the trees.

What's really sad to me is that one can not come to these forums and talk about God's scriptural diagnosis and remedy for this cancer called sin without someone from the "grace" camp screaming legalism. I have stated scripture after scripture after scripture which reveals God's remedy for those in bondage yet only to be met with false accusations and called various names.

THIS IS A LONG POST, and is for Crossfire.
Sorry it's so long brother.
I hope you have time to read it.




But what I don't understand is how you determine those who believe in Eternal Security are in bondage to sin?
How do you do it, especially over the internet?

And how do others determine over the internet you aren't claiming victory while in bondage yourself?

These are sincere questions, not directed at you personally. I just really think if this conundrum could be answered, the issue would dissolve.

Did you not say elsewhere, brother, that the LORD gave you much Grace when you were backslidden?
Were you not returned to the fold safely (no matter how pained and ahungered you had been)?

The remedy for the cancer of sin is The CROSS.

Those who are saved by Grace through faith will be sanctified.
I just don't understand why some feel they are the time-keepers, or they are the ones to say when God is DONE with someone?

Particularly when scripture makes it clear that even as redeemed believers we are not without sin, and are liars if we say we are.

Again: why the assumption people who see clearly in scripture Eternal Security are in bondage to sin?
Does the Bible itself make that claim?

Anything resembling this:
'He who believes in me when I say I give them eternal life and they will never perish will be licentious and in bondage to sin'?

The simple truth is that most people are looking for an "easy button", an excuse which both explains away and removes the burden of sins committed after salvation because one's own failure to trust in God's remedy for sin. Because of this, they have both ignored and attempted to remove a very important aspect of God's grace.

How can you make such a broad, sweeping statement?
My experience in person with other Christians is exactly the opposite. With the additional distinction that they are not continually accusing and spying and presuming.

Maybe that's what allows them to be humble and peaceable and have a clean conscience. Not only are they confessing their sins to the LORD (the remedy), they avoid temptation and do not live like the world lives.

I don't know why you experience so much licentiousness in others your Christian life - could it be something to do with what your denomination believes?

You do know that the more we focus on The Law, the stronger sin gets, right?

Hebrews 4: 16 plainly states that grace has not only provided for us forgiveness after sin has been committed but also help in our moment of weakness before we fail. 1 Corinthians 10:13 verifies this claim.

Of course.
But again, where do you get the idea that "most people" don't care about this and just want excuses to sin?
My experience is the opposite.
I see most Christians praying daily for the LORD's help to not fall into any sin, to be kept in the good ways and so on.

I wonder why the difference?

Now I ask you, which is would you prefer:

Your child comes to you and requests $20 to purchase an item needed to complete a school project. However, the next day your child misplaced the $20 you gave them. Would you rather your child come to you with the truth and request another $20, OR, would you rather your child admit to you after the fact that they stole $20 from you because they lost the money?

I, for one, prefer that my child come to me and request another $20 without stealing. The fact that they are willing to both be honest about their shortcomings and humbly ask for help in their time of need is evidence of the character that I have attempted to instill in them. My child can be trusted because my child has trust in me to be both understanding and willing to provide.

Now, while I would be more than willing to forgive my child for stealing after the fact, I would still be somewhat disappointed in my child's poor decision and would do whatever it took to make child realize that they needn't be ashamed to admit weakness and that I would have been more than happy to help them. Chances are disciplinary action would soon be involved if for some reason my child continued down the wrong path because they seemed incapable of understand or accepting the love and provision that I have already promised them if they would only choose to come to me first.

Crossfire, would ever disown your child and throw them out in alley?
Refusing to never take their phone calls or help them again?
Would your love be extinguished?

Here's an alternate scenario -

You are a Foster-father who has adopted a troubled boy.
The boy was in an orphanage, having been taken away from a father who was a murder, an abuser, a liar and a thief. The boy was abandoned many times by his real father, left alone for weeks on end. No love.

You adopted him because you had compassion.
You wanted him to know true love and security.

The boy was a liar and a thief when you adopted him, naturally he had learned that from his real father.
But you knew that in advance.
You were committed to turning him around, to saving him.
You made a commitment.

The boy doesn't trust you easily, since he's never been able to trust anyone. He only has your word for it that he will not be abandoned, abused or suffer any longer.

He also knows you have said you are aware he has learned bad behaviors, things that are unacceptable, that must change.
But you have assured him you love him not matter what, and that under your guidance, he will learn to change his ways and live a good life.

He steals the $20 the first day.

And the next and the next.

You discipline him. Will you do it the same way his natural father did?

Time passes and he begins to trust you as he sees you are not leaving him alone at night, not terrifying him with threats and rage. He watches you and reads you and learns to trust you, even though you are firm that his bad behaviors must change and will have consequences.

Years go by.

The boy has gradually learned that there are benefits (blessings) to obeying your rules, and punishments (chastisements) for breaking your rules.

But the KEY to all of it is that he is learning first that YOU LOVE HIM unconditionally, even though you are working in his daily life to help him change his thinking (and therefore his behavior).

Because he has learned that YOU TRULY LOVE HIM and that you MADE A LIFETIME COMMITMENT when you signed the adoption papers and he took your NAME as his own, he now learns what LOVE IS. and he now LOVES YOU.

Because you loved him first, and took him from his misery and sin, and gave him your name, and set boundaries around him to keep him safe and to chastise him when needed, he has come to understand NOW that he can come to you freely in time of need, that he doesn't have to be afraid of you (though he respects and fears your DISAPPROVAL), he never doubts that YOU LOVE HIM and will keep him as YOUR SON.

You have forgiven all the bad things he did, even the things he did against you. You never throw them back in his face. You are building a good and upright young man who is learning what a father and a family and righteousness is.

Now he has a real father.

Now he is a real son.

Because of your commitment (before he even knew you existed) to take him and love him and change him; he is loved and changed. This was ALL YOUR DOING.

He could not have done this without you.
Without your consistent, never-wavering love and guidance, whether firm or soft. Even when it was not pleasurable to be corrected by you, as time went on it bore real fruit in him.

You saved him from being just like his natural father, a murderer and a liar.

He is your son, and will inherit everything you have written in your will.

The End.

- so, if you were that man who made a commitment to adopt that sinful child who rebelled even after you brought him home...would you turn around half way through your commitment, tear up the adoption papers, erase his name from your Will and throw him into the street?

What kind of FATHER would YOU have been?

The simple truth is God has already provided all that we need through His Spirit, all we need do is turn to him in our moment of need. Yes, it's not always easy but it does not chance the fact that God's provisions is there when we need if we simply humble ourselves and ask for it before we fall head first into sin. Yes, grace is there if and when we fall however, seeing as our sin grieves Him, it is obvious that God would much rather we turn to Him in weakness than in failure because it is evidence of our faith in His goodness.

Does God fly in and out of a rage when the saints fail (sin), Crossfire?
We're all doomed if that were true.
Like our hypothetical adoptive son, should he expect you, his new father to put lit cigarettes to his arms, or lock him in a dungeon when he trespasses against you, like his natural father did?

Or did he learn over time that BECAUSE YOU LOVED HIM, he loves you, and now WANTS TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT because of you and what you have done for him. He won't always, but he knows you will forgive him when he comes red-faced and crying to say what he has done. In his old life he didn't care about what he did. He was so angry and filled with hatred he did bad things all the time, on purpose.

But YOU in your wisdom and planning, changed him.
(Perhaps you had a helper in all this - a wife. She became his mother and often told him about what his father wanted for him, how proud of him they were, etc. She assured him nightly as she put him to bed that she and the father loved him).

You could amplify this story by having you as the adopting father adopt MANY sons from that orphanage.

They would all be different, and all have different problems, but YOUR rules are the same for all. Your love and patience for all never wavers. Some learn more quickly than others. Some are corrected more often than others.

Will you love some more than others? Will you throw some out into the alley after promising to keep and love them and provide a permanent home for them (having established this furthering commitment in your Will, which you have already declared may not under any circumstances be changed)?

Will you do this part way through their new lives when you KNOW you are going to be able to change them? That it is fully in your power to do so, and you have willed to do so? That in fact this was your plan all along, even before the orphanage down the street was built?

God Bless
marianna


"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him! - Matthew 7:11




His wrath against sin was fully extinguished (propitiation) in Christ Whom He made to be sin though He knew no sin for all who receive the gift by faith. (the boys at the orphanage didn't know you were planning to take them as your own. One day you showed up with the papers. I suppose some would be so far gone they would have refused to be adopted and taken to a good life - but perhaps the authorities at the orphanage never really explained to them what their new lives would be like (?)


Question: "What is propitiation?"

Answer: The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to him.

The necessity of appeasing God is something many religions have in common. In ancient pagan religions, as well as in many religions today, the idea is taught that man appeases God by offering various gifts or sacrifices. However, the Bible teaches that God Himself has provided the only means through which His wrath can be appeased and sinful man can be reconciled to Him. In the New Testament, the act of propitiation always refers to the work of God and not the sacrifices or gifts offered by man. The reason for this is that man is totally incapable of satisfying God’s justice except by spending eternity in hell. There is no service, sacrifice or gift that man can offer that will appease the holy wrath of God or satisfy His perfect justice. The only satisfaction, or propitiation, that could be acceptable to God and that could reconcile man to Him, had to be made by God. For this reason God the Son, Jesus Christ, came into the world in human flesh to be the perfect sacrifice for sin and make atonement or “propitiation for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2:17).

The word propitiation is used in several key verses to explain what Jesus accomplished through His death on the cross. For example, in Romans 3:24-25 we see that believers in Christ have been “justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed." These verses are a key point in Paul’s argument in the Book of Romans and are really at the heart of the Gospel message.

In the first three chapters of Romans, Paul has made the argument that everybody, both Jew and Gentile alike, is under the condemnation of God and deserving of His wrath (Romans 1:18). Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of us deserve His wrath and punishment. God in His infinite grace and mercy has provided a way that His wrath can be appeased and we can be reconciled to Him. That way is through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ, as the atonement or payment for sins. It is through faith in Jesus Christ as God’s perfect sacrifice, foretold in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament, that we can be reconciled to God. It is only because of Christ’s perfect life, His death on the cross, and His resurrection on the third day that a lost sinner deserving of hell can be reconciled to a Holy God. The wonderful truth of the Gospel message is that Christians are saved from God’s wrath and reconciled to God not because “we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10).

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). The only way for God’s wrath against sinful man to be appeased and for us to be reconciled to God is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way. This truth is also communicated in 1 John 2:2; “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” An important part of Christ’s saving work includes deliverance from God’s wrath that the unbelieving sinner is under, because Jesus’ atonement on the cross is the only thing that can turn away God’s divine wrath. Those that reject Christ as their Savior and refuse to believe in Him have no hope of salvation. They can only look forward to facing the wrath of God that they have stored up for the coming day of judgment (Romans 2:5). There is no other propitiation or sacrifice that can be made for their sins.

 

[marianna]

Sigh....

I already told you I am in His rest

Since last week?

What are you going to do about all the damage you've done to lambs who passed by and read your posts saying no, they would not enter rest? could not.

You willfully sinned against your brother jimmydiggs - on purpose, knowingly. You sinned WILLFULLY after having been enlightened.

According to you, there is no more sacrifice for your sins.
Cut off.



Feeling okay, GreenNnice?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your grace, eg, you were given grace by God

No My friend. It is Gods grace. If it was my grace, I could earn it. And that is not the case. It is Gods grace that sustained me 24/7 365 days a year.

Try to stop basing everything on self, and put it on God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What are you even trying to say, eg ?

Sigh....

I already told you I am in His rest, sure, I have fallen, will fall again, sure, we sin and there are consequences, but I am obeying Him, through it ALL, eg, , I am , too, linoleum you, I guess, but with God put in a 'faithfulness' bondage box, sigh, hmmm, anyway, yeah, in His rest.

How can you be in his rest when you can't possibly know you will sustain whatever it is you think will keep you saved, and you will not fall? if you think that is rest you do not understand rest very well.

Get it. This is FULLY understanding His grace, when you finally tell me this picture is got by you , I pray THEN you quit thinking about my sin, your sin (who said anything about sin, QUIT bringing it up )

Excuse me, but your the one stating we can not know if we are assured heaven or not. Not me. If you understood grace, you would not think this

Live YOUR life, run YOUR race as you are led, we AGREE, we are saved by His grace. Of course, now you are getting it, servanthood of God others is Love, it is also opening yourself up for, ahhh, *yaWN, 'I got a peaceful, easy feeling, I know He won't let me down. Cuz I know though I fall He will stand me back up on the ground.'

Now, eg, I am just trying to help you liVe like you believe. Live , in His leading, don't even thinking about falling down and QUIT 'dropping' me . God bless

How are you helping me when you are telling me to take my focus of Christ, and put it on myself? This is not helping me, this is trying to take me away from God.

 

[resurrection33]

Jesus saves us from Satan’s eternal torment, but we are subject to the Lord’s discipline, which can be very severe if we refuse to repent of our sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus saves us from Satan’s eternal torment, but we are subject to the Lord’s discipline, which can be very severe if we refuse to repent of our sin.

It can be severe even if we repent. God does not remove the consequence of sin just because we beg his forgiveness.

 

[rauleetoe]

Hmmmm, what you call legalism exposes licentiousness, and it's watering-down God's word, fighting for sin. I take legalism name calling over that any day.

As will I so gladly be called religious and a pharisee, and being accused of thinking I am better than others(when I hear this, I question why people defend their sinfull 'tendencies' so vehemently) when sin has no more power over you, and that was our ols life, we have become a new creation..one has to wonder if some who are miltants proponents of OSAS(once a sinner, always a sinner?) simply do not wisg to do theor part to be sanctified, or simply are unaware they can live right..or they like sin too much..so then OSAS becomes an attractive doctrine for them.

 

[rauleetoe]

How can you be in his rest when you can't possibly know you will sustain whatever it is you think will keep you saved, and you will not fall? if you think that is rest you do not understand rest very well.



Excuse me, but your the one stating we can not know if we are assured heaven or not. Not me. If you understood grace, you would not think this



How are you helping me when you are telling me to take my focus of Christ, and put it on myself? This is not helping me, this is trying to take me away from God.

ok..i could not stand to npt reply..so I will respond in.his stead until he reads it, sonce you equate,rest to not worrying or what you consider worrying/stressing..pleaae tell us what your method is of what you consider to be rest. as far as assurance, you can be assured when you walj..bear fruit, and work out your salvation, phillipians,2...how can you not see this is not too difficult to grasp eg. how is looking at your heart and examining your heart taking you away from God? and how else do you ever expect to grow if yoy never be honest about where you are at, and ask God to reveal what he must to you about you? im flabberghasted how,easily you misread what has been said

 

[Abiding]

As will I so gladly be called religious and a pharisee, and being accused of thinking I am better than others(when I hear this, I question why people defend their sinfull 'tendencies' so vehemently) when sin has no more power over you, and that was our ols life, we have become a new creation..one has to wonder if some who are miltants proponents of OSAS(once a sinner, always a sinner?) simply do not wisg to do theor part to be sanctified, or simply are unaware they can live right..or they like sin too much..so then OSAS becomes an attractive doctrine for them.

Cheap shot! who here do you know? And who have you asked about their feelings about sin?


30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Im sure if you asked any here your talking about they would tell you they hate sin with a passion
and pray daily for the grace to lead Holy lives. Go ahead and ask.

 

[Abiding]

what was the difference between Joshua and Caleb and the rest?
Any application there to this thread?

 

[Abiding]

Does a person have to fear hell to trust God, and hate sin.
And is trusting God a sin?

 

[feedm3]

Does a person have to fear hell to trust God, and hate sin.
And is trusting God a sin?

Fear of hell motivated me to seek out Christ. I am not ashamed of that. In fact Jesus used this tatic as well.

Repent or perish - Luke 13:3

However, NO a person does not have to fear hell to trust God. But in some cases fearing hell can be a motivator to do right.

After we grow some, we learn to hate sin. It was hard for me to hate something when I was doing it. After I stopped I could see the damage they really did, and then starting hating them.

I still fear hell though. Not that I am in constant fear everyday, yet if I choose to live in sin, not repent, during the times I have done that, I feared what would happen if I died in that state.


So also a motivator to repent.

 

[Mediate]

If I only do what I am told for fear of Hell, give me Hell.

If I do it only to get my rewards in Heaven, let me never have them.

If I have faith because it is right, let my faith be all the more abundant NO MATTER WHERE I END UP.

 

[feedm3]

I agree, if you ONLY do it out fear or reward.

 

[Abiding]

Fear of hell motivated me to seek out Christ. I am not ashamed of that. In fact Jesus used this tatic as well.

Repent or perish - Luke 13:3

However, NO a person does not have to fear hell to trust God. But in some cases fearing hell can be a motivator to do right.

After we grow some, we learn to hate sin. It was hard for me to hate something when I was doing it. After I stopped I could see the damage they really did, and then starting hating them.

I still fear hell though. Not that I am in constant fear everyday, yet if I choose to live in sin, not repent, during the times I have done that, I feared what would happen if I died in that state.


So also a motivator to repent.

Well ill admit i feared hell to. But i mean now. after believing i dont but
i know definantly ill be going to the woodshed. But honestly i also dont want
to be displeasing to the Lord.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As will I so gladly be called religious and a pharisee, and being accused of thinking I am better than others(when I hear this, I question why people defend their sinfull 'tendencies' so vehemently) when sin has no more power over you, and that was our ols life, we have become a new creation..one has to wonder if some who are miltants proponents of OSAS(once a sinner, always a sinner?) simply do not wisg to do theor part to be sanctified, or simply are unaware they can live right..or they like sin too much..so then OSAS becomes an attractive doctrine for them.

Yet once again, And you refuse to Acknowledge, OSAS does not teach licentiousness. In fact is is apposed to it. Because a licentious gospel does not teach repentance. Thus a licentious gospel will save no one.

You are called a pharisee because you are a pharisee.