The False Doctrine of OSAS

[rauleetoe]

It is not about me being more righteous..did i say i was? Why make such an accusation? I simply believe God helps me to live a holy life, if i choose to receive his help..does that make me any less or more..no. I simply choose to believe I can live for God in him..because my life is his with Christ, collosians 3:3..and we are to therefore put off all these things we used to do..in which we once lived..once lived(if you still live in them, them maybe you need to check to see if you truly had a real conversion)
collosians 3:7
'in which you once lived,when you were alive in them'

so, how does that make me any better than you? I never said such a thing, i just believe different than you on this matter..i used to go to a church that focused only on grace and love..and oh God is gracious..he loves and accepts you..yes he does, but out of that love, we should want to honor the father. Which one of you truly loves your father and if you are in your right mind would abuse of your father's love by constantly disappointing him and having no regard for how he felt? If you would honor your human father in this way, how much more so your heavenly father?!

 

[rauleetoe]

That's the problem. Most people think this is a sin issue and it's not. It's a relationship issue. Our sin is nothing more than a reflection, an outward expression of our inward state. Scripture plainly states that one who walks with in Spirit need not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Our sin is nothing more than the evidence of our failure to walk with God on a daily basis, our lack of trust in Him to deliver us from our temptations in our moment of weakness.

Personally, I'm tired of talking about sin. I would love to fellowship with people who are mature enough in the faith to understand the biblical principle that I have shared above. However, because of licentiousness in the church, the "sin debate" continues on simply because people are concentrating on sin itself instead of the means in which God has provided to overcome it in our lives through abiding in Him on a consistant basis.

Sadly some churches do quite well only talking about this, and never really offering up a solution other than what they call 'grace' which is not grace at all, its licensing excusatory insanity.
Why anyone looks down on one who truly believes God can help him in this walk(not saying i am perfect,do not get it twisted) to accusing me of not seeing my sin? Huh, that's the pot calling the kettle black, because i never said i had 'no sin' I simply am tired of making excuses as those of the OSAS greasy grace only gospel do. I simply believe it is two fold..Yes God helps you..and sustains you, IF you choose to keep your life on the sacrificial altar and constantly walk with him..no excuses people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok, so just because you live in this flesh capsule we call a body..and have a sin 'tendency' does this mean we give up and throw up our hands in defeat..or do we believe what phillipians 2 says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling,because God helps us to do so..and if we seek his help he can help us and live a holy life. I am trying to understand what your solution to the problem is then..please reiterate.

Now your twisting my words. No we do not give up. why would we do this? this is a foolish thought, and just a ploy by those who teach legalism to make themselves look better. Whyen we do this, we take ourselves out, we put our light out, and our testimony is destroyed.

this is what Paul meant, he di dnto say work out to gain salvation, he said work out our own salvation, you know, the one we OWN. For fear that the world who looks at us will look at us like hypocrites and we are unable to work for God.

Don;t you know the worst damage to Gods plan is the legalist. the many hypocrites who demand we must be good or God will not want us, when they can't even live up to that standard. Christ said he did not come to judge, but to save. he came to the sinner and loved them, he did not judge them, what gives the church the right to judge when Christ would not do that himself. He came to give good news, not bad news. yet people want to spread bad news. That if you do not live up to some preconbcieved standard, you will not make it. yet they can not even agree to what that standard is.

Well I know the standard, the standard is the law. and that standard only one man fulfilled, and that is Christ, you can't do it, I can;t do it, so why are we demanding everyone else do it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sadly some churches do quite well only talking about this, and never really offering up a solution other than what they call 'grace' which is not grace at all, its licensing excusatory insanity.
Why anyone looks down on one who truly believes God can help him in this walk(not saying i am perfect,do not get it twisted) to accusing me of not seeing my sin? Huh, that's the pot calling the kettle black, because i never said i had 'no sin' I simply am tired of making excuses as those of the OSAS greasy grace only gospel do. I simply believe it is two fold..Yes God helps you..and sustains you, IF you choose to keep your life on the sacrificial altar and constantly walk with him..no excuses people.

You don;t understand grace at all. Grace is what allows us to change, and live Christlike. Grace says I can come boldly to the throne of Christ and ask his help to overcome my sin because I know I am not judged. Licentious people do not come to the throne of Christ, they want nothing to do with it. Because they know they are judged also. but are playing games.

David came to God because he knew he was forgiven, not because he feared judgment.

I grew up in legalism. When I struggled with sin, I did not go to God. I was scared to death to even look toward him, it was not until I found grace that I could come to God openly and not in fear because I knew God loved me and would never do anything to hurt me.

before you judge us try to figure out what we believe.

 

[rauleetoe]

Now your twisting my words. No we do not give up. why would we do this? this is a foolish thought, and just a ploy by those who teach legalism to make themselves look better. Whyen we do this, we take ourselves out, we put our light out, and our testimony is destroyed.

this is what Paul meant, he di dnto say work out to gain salvation, he said work out our own salvation, you know, the one we OWN. For fear that the world who looks at us will look at us like hypocrites and we are unable to work for God.

Don;t you know the worst damage to Gods plan is the legalist. the many hypocrites who demand we must be good or God will not want us, when they can't even live up to that standard. Christ said he did not come to judge, but to save. he came to the sinner and loved them, he did not judge them, what gives the church the right to judge when Christ would not do that himself. He came to give good news, not bad news. yet people want to spread bad news. That if you do not live up to some preconbcieved standard, you will not make it. yet they can not even agree to what that standard is.

Well I know the standard, the standard is the law. and that standard only one man fulfilled, and that is Christ, you can't do it, I can;t do it, so why are we demanding everyone else do it?

I am not demanding anything of anyone..i truly just believe we can live this holy life..not saying it is easy..if you want easy believism the non denominational contemporary church around the corner will facilitate that just nicely for those who want that. I did not 'twist your words' but merely am trying to see what your solution is..simply believe..ok, what is faith without works..how is that in itself legalism? Out of gratitude of what God has done, and out of this overflow..we should want to live a life seeking to live right and not how we once lived..
and is that me judging when i simply say, hey do not hold onto this 'grace only' mentality that eliminates any action on your behalf..that is what i was warning about. I of all people do not see myself as superior to anyone, sadly all people see are typed words and can read them however they wish to, and say that i am seeing myself as superior..yet i never said, "i am superior than you"..that said, can we stick to what is being said..and simply tell me what your solution is then..if my believing i can live Holy and right(with God assisting me) that somehow is seen as legalism yet it is not at all. I simply wish to reverence God and have had to unlearn much of this 'grace only' gospel that was taught to me for many years and never really gave me the option to live for him. Nobody told me this was possible..I see it is now, and why did nobody tell me?! I wish they would have..i wish they would have..

 

[Crossfire]

The problem is not that we want to make sin ok. The problem is that those who claim we have to be righteous do not see their own sin. How many times do you chose self over God on a daily basis? do you not know this is just as bad as commiting murder in Gods eyes.

Lets say you do this 10 times per day, do you understand this is ten death penalties against you? How can you ever make it up. Take that to a year. that 10 times 365 days or 3650 sins a year, add that up to over a few years. so tell us, how righteous can you be? why do you think you are more righteous than anyone else. and more deserving of eternal life. and any less in need of the blood of Christ.

I disagree. As long as there is there is licentiousness there will be legalism and vice versa. The two feed off one another because both are tools of the devil to pull the wool over people's eyes.

While there may be some who refute OSAS that are unwilling to recognize their own sin as you have stated, to say that all who refuse to accept OSAS because of licentiousness are like that is nothing more presumptuous foolishness.

The simple truth is that the bible makes no allowances for sin. Why? Because scripture plainly describes God's provision to overcome sin in our lives. God does not turn a blind eye toward sin after salvation. Why? Because scripture plainly describes God's provision to overcome sin in our lives. Sin after salvation does indeed grieve the Holy Spirit. Why? Again, because scripture plainly describes God's provision to overcome sin in our lives.

When will people finally wake up and recognize and accept what Peter states in 2 Peter 1:

2 Peter 1: 3-4

For His divine power has bestowed upon us all things that [are requisite and suited] to life and godliness, through the [full, personal] knowledge of Him Who called us by and to His own glory and excellence (virtue).

By means of these He has bestowed on us His precious and exceedingly great promises, so that through them you may escape [by flight] from the moral decay (rottenness and corruption) that is in the world because of covetousness (lust and greed), and become sharers (partakers) of the divine nature.

 

[rauleetoe]

You don;t understand grace at all. Grace is what allows us to change, and live Christlike. Grace says I can come boldly to the throne of Christ and ask his help to overcome my sin because I know I am not judged. Licentious people do not come to the throne of Christ, they want nothing to do with it. Because they know they are judged also. but are playing games.

David came to God because he knew he was forgiven, not because he feared judgment.

I grew up in legalism. When I struggled with sin, I did not go to God. I was scared to death to even look toward him, it was not until I found grace that I could come to God openly and not in fear because I knew God loved me and would never do anything to hurt me.

before you judge us try to figure out what we believe.

You really do not hear what i said, I did not judge you..i disagree with you, and that equates judgement? Before you make an assumption like this reread and see i did not say, I am better than eternallygratefull..because if you truly are eternally gratefull as your name implies(i am sure you are, as am i of what has been done for all of us) then we walk in this..whether you call it holy living..or not..or legalism or not..there should be an overflow..a wanting to do out of gratitude. How is that legalism? I truly believe you do not know what i stand for or believe. I am not advocating legalism..i simply am warning against spiritual lethargy. If this makes me a proponent for legalism in your eyes or in the eyes of others then let them forever 'paint me' with whatever brush that they wish to. You do you..you go live your grace oriented Gospel..and i will have my faith+ my works, as Paul said

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You really do not hear what i said, I did not judge you..i disagree with you, and that equates judgement? Before you make an assumption like this reread and see i did not say, I am better than eternallygratefull..because if you truly are eternally gratefull as your name implies(i am sure you are, as am i of what has been done for all of us) then we walk in this..whether you call it holy living..or not..or legalism or not..there should be an overflow..a wanting to do out of gratitude. How is that legalism? I truly believe you do not know what i stand for or believe. I am not advocating legalism..i simply am warning against spiritual lethargy. If this makes me a proponent for legalism in your eyes or in the eyes of others then let them forever 'paint me' with whatever brush that they wish to. You do you..you go live your grace oriented Gospel..and i will have my faith+ my works, as Paul said

Faith plus works equals legalism. If you do not agree, I am sorry. If you do not think it is legalism. I am also sorry.

If we have to do ANYTHING in order to recieve salvation, we are working to earn it.

We agree, we need to fight against lethargy. The problem comes when we state this "lethargy" equals lost salvation. for in no place of scripture will we find this.

eternal life is eternal. Many of us may sadly be like the Corinthian church, needing fed milk not meat as we are stuck with sin issues, and problems trusting Christ, But as Paul made it clear. they are our brothers. Babes in Christ.

Grace does not teach it is ok to sin, Grace teaches gratefulness, and this teaches love. there is no love in faith plus works. only fear.

ps. Paul did not teach faith plus works. He taught we were saved BY FAITH apart from works. and those who are saved by faith plus works, WILL DO the works they were created to do.

 

[Crossfire]

Well I know the standard, the standard is the law. and that standard only one man fulfilled, and that is Christ, you can't do it, I can;t do it, so why are we demanding everyone else do it?

That statement is not at all biblical but rather, nothing more than the religious traditions of men. Please see the following scripture:

John 13: 34 - 35

34 I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.

35 By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves].

Romans 13: 9-10

9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet (have an evil desire), and any other commandment, are summed up in the single command, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself.

10 Love does no wrong to one’s neighbor [it never hurts anybody]. Therefore love meets all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law.

Galatians 5: 22-25

22 But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,

23 Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge].

24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.

25 If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit we have our life in God, let us go forward walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]

Scripture is clear, he who abides in the Holy Spirit - that same Spirit which inhabited Christ - has access through the Spirit to every needed to live a Godly life. Is it that hard to understand?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree. As long as there is there is licentiousness there will be legalism and vice versa. The two feed off one another because both are tools of the devil to pull the wool over people's eyes.

Then how can you say you disagree, I said the same thing.

While there may be some who refute OSAS that are unwilling to recognize their own sin as you have stated, to say that all who refuse to accept OSAS because of licentiousness are like that is nothing more presumptuous foolishness.

How is it foolishness? OSAS is based on the work of Christ. It is based on the promise of Christ. It is based on the love of God. To teach anything else is to teach legalism. Yes the licentious use it to excuse their sin. But anything other than it is legalism. No w=matter what people think.

The simple truth is that the bible makes no allowances for sin. Why? Because scripture plainly describes God's provision to overcome sin in our lives. God does not turn a blind eye toward sin after salvation. Why? Because scripture plainly describes God's provision to overcome sin in our lives. Sin after salvation does indeed grieve the Holy Spirit. Why? Again, because scripture plainly describes God's provision to overcome sin in our lives.

When will people finally wake up and recognize and accept what Peter states in 2 Peter 1:

Grieving is not losing. Yes we grieve the spirit. and yes God is still going to work on sin, he does not just turn a blind eye. But Christ paid the price for sin, past present and future. if he did not pay for future sin, we have no hope. because all of our sin was future to him.

God saved us knowing everything we would ever do, every think ever say, and even sins of ommision (things we would not do we were supposed to do) He chose us before ther foundation of the world KNOWING THIS VERY THING.

To say God will remove salvation after giving it, when he KNEW everything we would do even AFTER he gave it to us is to mock the omniscience of God. not to mention it mocks the cross. saying it was not sufficient enough to cover our sin.

 

[Crossfire]

Then how can you say you disagree, I said the same thing.

While that may have been your intention, that's not how it came across.

How is it foolishness? OSAS is based on the work of Christ. It is based on the promise of Christ. It is based on the love of God. To teach anything else is to teach legalism. Yes the licentious use it to excuse their sin. But anything other than it is legalism. No w=matter what people think.

Grieving is not losing. Yes we grieve the spirit. and yes God is still going to work on sin, he does not just turn a blind eye. But Christ paid the price for sin, past present and future. if he did not pay for future sin, we have no hope. because all of our sin was future to him.

God saved us knowing everything we would ever do, every think ever say, and even sins of ommision (things we would not do we were supposed to do) He chose us before ther foundation of the world KNOWING THIS VERY THING.

To say God will remove salvation after giving it, when he KNEW everything we would do even AFTER he gave it to us is to mock the omniscience of God. not to mention it mocks the cross. saying it was not sufficient enough to cover our sin.

Please read my post again. You completely misunderstood what I said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith plus works equals legalism. If you do not agree, I am sorry. If you do not think it is legalism. I am also sorry.

If we have to do ANYTHING in order to recieve salvation, we are working to earn it.

We agree, we need to fight against lethargy. The problem comes when we state this "lethargy" equals lost salvation. for in no place of scripture will we find this.

eternal life is eternal. Many of us may sadly be like the Corinthian church, needing fed milk not meat as we are stuck with sin issues, and problems trusting Christ, But as Paul made it clear. they are our brothers. Babes in Christ.

Grace does not teach it is ok to sin, Grace teaches gratefulness, and this teaches love. there is no love in faith plus works. only fear.

ps. Paul did not teach faith plus works. He taught we were saved BY FAITH apart from works. and those who are saved by faith plus works, WILL DO the works they were created to do.

I just saw an error I made. Those saved by faith (minus the plus works) WILL WORK.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read my post again. You completely misunderstood what I said.

show me how I misunderstood. I read it again and saw the same thing

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That statement is not at all biblical but rather, nothing more than the religious traditions of men. Please see the following scripture:

No it is not false. It is why we are no longer under law because the law could never save us. God said there is only one who could fulfill the law and that is Christ.

James did not let us know if we break even the least of the commands we are guilty of the whole law for nothing. He was showing us who try to work for it, we can never be good enough.

Scripture is clear, he who abides in the Holy Spirit - that same Spirit which inhabited Christ - has access through the Spirit to every needed to live a Godly life. Is it that hard to understand?

I understand it complete. I also understand that if we say we are without sin we are fooling ourself and there is no truth in us. And that God said through John that as children of God we can not live in sin because the spirit lives in us.

what confuses me is people who say we can live in sin, even though God says we can;t, or that they are more righteous than us. Even Paul, after much time had past from his conversion, and many missionary journeys, declared he was still in sin, In face he considered himself still (present tense) the chief of all sinners. WHy can;t we all be like paul and stop looking at how good we think we are. and realise how underserving of gods grace we truly are.

 

[Crossfire]

show me how I misunderstood. I read it again and saw the same thing

Could it be possible that you see what you want to see? Anyways, let's move on.

 

[Crossfire]

No it is not false. It is why we are no longer under law because the law could never save us. God said there is only one who could fulfill the law and that is Christ.

James did not let us know if we break even the least of the commands we are guilty of the whole law for nothing. He was showing us who try to work for it, we can never be good enough.



I understand it complete. I also understand that if we say we are without sin we are fooling ourself and there is no truth in us. And that God said through John that as children of God we can not live in sin because the spirit lives in us.

what confuses me is people who say we can live in sin, even though God says we can;t, or that they are more righteous than us. Even Paul, after much time had past from his conversion, and many missionary journeys, declared he was still in sin, In face he considered himself still (present tense) the chief of all sinners. WHy can;t we all be like paul and stop looking at how good we think we are. and realise how underserving of gods grace we truly are.

This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with what we do but rather in who we trust. This is not about works at all but genuine faith. You and I can do nothing but all things are possible through Christ who strengthens us. Unfortunately, many are so stuck in their own doctrine, they can not see the forest for the trees.

What's really sad to me is that one can not come to these forums and talk about God's scriptural diagnosis and remedy for this cancer called sin without someone from the "grace" camp screaming legalism. I have stated scripture after scripture after scripture which reveals God's remedy for those in bondage yet only to be met with false accusations and called various names.

The simple truth is that most people are looking for an "easy button", an excuse which both explains away and removes the burden of sins committed after salvation because one's own failure to trust in God's remedy for sin. Because of this, they have both ignored and attempted to remove a very important aspect of God's grace.

Hebrews 4: 16 plainly states that grace has not only provided for us forgiveness after sin has been committed but also help in our moment of weakness before we fail. 1 Corinthians 10:13 verifies this claim.

Now I ask you, which is would you prefer:

Your child comes to you and requests $20 to purchase an item needed to complete a school project. However, the next day your child misplaced the $20 you gave them. Would you rather your child come to you with the truth and request another $20, OR, would you rather your child admit to you after the fact that they stole $20 from you because they lost the money?

I, for one, prefer that my child come to me and request another $20 without stealing. The fact that they are willing to both be honest about their shortcomings and humbly ask for help in their time of need is evidence of the character that I have attempted to instill in them. My child can be trusted because my child has trust in me to be both understanding and willing to provide.

Now, while I would be more than willing to forgive my child for stealing after the fact, I would still be somewhat disappointed in my child's poor decision and would do whatever it took to make child realize that they needn't be ashamed to admit weakness and that I would have been more than happy to help them. Chances are disciplinary action would soon be involved if for some reason my child continued down the wrong path because they seemed incapable of understand or accepting the love and provision that I have already promised them if they would only choose to come to me first.

The simple truth is God has already provided all that we need through His Spirit, all we need do is turn to him in our moment of need. Yes, it's not always easy but it does not chance the fact that God's provisions is there when we need if we simply humble ourselves and ask for it before we fall head first into sin. Yes, grace is there if and when we fall however, seeing as our sin grieves Him, it is obvious that God would much rather we turn to Him in weakness than in failure because it is evidence of our faith in His goodness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with what we do but rather in who we trust. Unfortunately, many are so stuck in their own doctrine, they can not see the forest for the trees.

What's really sad to me is that one can not come to these forums and talk about God's scriptural diagnosis and remedy for this cancer called sin without someone from the "grace" camp screaming legalism. I have stated scripture after scripture after scripture which reveals God's remedy for those in bondage yet only to be met with false accusations and called various names.

The simple truth is that most people are looking for an "easy button", an excuse which both explains away and removes the burden of sins committed after salvation because one's own failure to trust in God's remedy for sin. Because of this, they have both ignored and attempted to remove a very important aspect of God's grace.

Hebrews 4: 16 plainly states that grace has not only provided for us forgiveness after sin has been committed but also help in our moment of weakness before we fail. 1 Corinthians 10:13 verifies this claim.

Now I ask you, which is would you prefer:

Your child comes to you and requests $20 to purchase an item needed to complete a school project. However, the next day your child misplaced the $20 you gave them. Would you rather your child come to you with the truth and request another $20, OR, would you rather your child admit to you after the fact that they stole $20 from you because they lost the money?

I, for one, prefer that my child come to me and request another $20 without stealing. The fact that they are willing to both be honest about their shortcomings and humbly ask for help in their time of need is evidence of the character that I have attempted to instill in them. My child can be trusted because my child has trust in me to be both understanding and willing to provide.

Now, while I would be more than willing to forgive my child for stealing after the fact, I would still be somewhat disappointed in my child's poor decision and would do whatever it took to make child realize that they needn't be ashamed to admit weakness and that I would have been more than happy to help them. Chances are disciplinary action would soon be involved if for some reason my child continued down the wrong path because they seemed incapable of understand or accepting the love and provision that I have already promised them if they would only choose to come to me first.

The simple truth is God has already provided all that we need through His Spirit, all we need do is turn to him in our moment of need. Yes, it's not always easy but it does not chance the fact that God's provisions is there when we need if we simply humble ourselves and ask for it before we fall head first into sin. Yes, grace is there if and when we fall however, seeing as our sin grieves Him, it is obvious that God would much rather we turn to Him in weakness than in failure because it is evidence of our faith in His goodness.

It has nothing to do with the grace camp trying to oppose anyone who teaches us how as children of God we should live, and how to overcome the evil one. I would all over that. It is about those who claim grace is a lie and if we do not live up to some standard God will yank his salvation from us.

If you can't understand this, thats to bad.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Could it be possible that you see what you want to see? Anyways, let's move on.

Seeing what? That your saying the God who chose us before the foundatiron of the world, and chose to make us right before him will somehow mess up and give someone salvation and then have to yank it away?

I see clearly. I am afraid it is you who does not see my friend.

 

[marianna]

That statement is not at all biblical but rather, nothing more than the religious traditions of men. Please see the following scripture:

Scripture is clear, he who abides in the Holy Spirit - that same Spirit which inhabited Christ - has access through the Spirit to every needed to live a Godly life. Is it that hard to understand?

Where does it say abide in the Holy Spirit? It says abide in CHRIST.
The Holy Spirit is the Helper - the guarantee. He abides in the believer, uniting them to Christ!
Will the Holy Spirit walk off the job (abandon the purchased possession) and refuse to carry out His Commission?

If you purchase a home by means of a downpayment, you own that house. You hold the deed or title to it in your name. Unless YOU fail to pay for the house in full, you will own it outright. Men go bankrupt everyday and lose the titles to their homes. God is not a man that He would fail.

God does not fail to take possession of what He has purchased! Who will take anything away from HIM?
Will the house refuse to be purchased once it already has God's Name on the title?

God has purchased men through His Own Work and Payment Plan (Jesus), and has guaranteed the deal by sealing that House with His Own Spirit! His Name is written on that house!
He has already taken possession of that house because He is inhabiting it!

That house needs repair and renovation and restoration - He knew that when He bought it! That's what The Helper is doing! And the house is being made clean, and the house is on a solid foundation which can never be moved.

 

[Crossfire]

Seeing what? That your saying the God who chose us before the foundatiron of the world, and chose to make us right before him will somehow mess up and give someone salvation and then have to yank it away?

I see clearly. I am afraid it is you who does not see my friend.

I didn't say that at all. Again you are seeing what you want to see and are making presumptions because of it.

As I stated, there are certain elements of OSAS that I would agree with and others I do not. The simple
truth is that licentiousness is every bit as active in the church as legalism and both are cancers.

Unlike many on these forums, I know that you do not acknowledge licentious behavior and for that I do commend you greatly. Please understand, a lot of what I have shared is not directed toward you thus none of it should be take personally. The only thing that you state that I heavily disagree is the notion that those who speak of remedy for sin are sin centered. I feel that is a cop out used by certain grace camps to justify ignoring what truly lives deep in their hearts.

I talk about the remedy for sin because I personally have witnessed people set free from the bondage of sin and have seen God use these people mightily to many save souls and deliver people. On the other hand, I have seen very little to no good fruit from the other camp. In fact, the number of bad fruit exceeds the good fruit by a landslide.